Very High Total T, Pretty Low Free T

**Pneuma** · 12-12-2016, 07:33 PM

Hi everyone.
Got some blood results back and was wondering if anyone would be interested to interperet?

I had many other parameters checked but what my doctor found most interesting was that my total T was actually high, even out of the reference ranges the company uses, but my free T was at the low end of the reference range.

Total T: 1049 ng/dL range 249-836
Free T: 8.1 pg/mL range: 4.3-30.4

Anyone seen this before?
Anyone have any suggestions?

**Pneuma** · 12-12-2016, 08:47 PM

To give some context, I haven't ever used gear but I am looking into TRT and perhaps others. I like to self experiment and I am wondering what HRT or other stuff will help. These are my natural numbers, I am 34 y/o.
It's funny: I look at other forums about subjects that I am knowledgable and things seem obvious to me. This kind of stuff is not, so informed input would be appreciated. My doctor didn't know how to interpret these results. Could anyone offer a suggestion?

**kelkel** · 12-12-2016, 09:34 PM

This points to the probability of a high SHBG level binding all your free T.
If your doc did not look at SHBG that's an issue in and of itself.

**Mr.BB** · 12-13-2016, 04:59 AM

^^^This, probably high SHBG.

So, can you post the whole bloodwork?

**Pneuma** · 12-13-2016, 10:59 AM

Thanks for the responses. The SHBG is something that was mentioned but I didn't go forward with having tested today when we went over my values because I spent so much on these other tests.
I did not have an entire thyroid panel done. If I knew that would have been helpful I would have gotten it.
Say hypothetically that SHBG was high. What is the next step?

**kelkel** · 12-13-2016, 11:06 AM

Determine if that's actually the case first. Some things that can help reduce shbg are:

Vitamin D: Optimize your level but base it on blood work. It's a fat soluble hormone so keep it in range but near the top.
Stinging Nettle Root
Avenacosides
Meds such as Danazol.

**AR's King Silabolin** · 12-13-2016, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Determine if that's actually the case first. Some things that can help reduce shbg are:

Vitamin D: Optimize your level but base it on blood work. It's a fat soluble hormone so keep it in range but near the top.
Stinging Nettle Root
Avenacosides
Meds such as Danazol.

and Proviron

**Pneuma** · 12-13-2016, 12:08 PM

Thanks for the suggestions.
I have been taking 5000UI of D3/day for five or six months now.
Also taking a lot of zinc and mag chelates, (something that Charles Polliquin mentioned) but not for very long yet.

Has anyone used avenacosides?

Should I try this before trying TRT? :-) Canseco says a little T is always better than even the strongest supplements.
Do you guys think my free T is low enough for me to get a script for T at an anti-aging clinic?

**kelkel** · 12-13-2016, 02:16 PM

So where does that keep your D3 level?
How old are you?
Are you planning on pulling thyroid panels? Hyperthyroidism can elevate shbg.

If you know what the problem is then address the problem. Don't band aid it with TRT. Your TT level is fantastic so I'd strongly suggest working on correcting your binding issue. Shutting down your HPTA is not the correct course of action in your situation, imho. Who knows what a clinic will do as their goal is to make money and turning people down doesn't accomplish that mission.

**BRUTAL** · 12-13-2016, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Pneuma

Hi everyone.
Got some blood results back and was wondering if anyone would be interested to interperet?

I had many other parameters checked but what my doctor found most interesting was that my total T was actually high, even out of the reference ranges the company uses, but my free T was at the low end of the reference range.

Total T: 1049 ng/dL range 249-836
Free T: 8.1 pg/mL range: 4.3-30.4

Anyone seen this before?
Anyone have any suggestions?

dam those are a fantastic T levels - alot people on here are chasing such numbers pinning their glutes religiously... I think no way you should go on TRT, all you need to do as kelkel said get thyroid and shbg tested to see deeper in to this, other than that, what was you quest for checking your numbers after all?

**Pneuma** · 12-13-2016, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

So where does that keep your D3 level?

5000iu daily you mean? Not sure. I haven't had that checked.

Originally Posted by kelkel

How old are you?

34

Originally Posted by kelkel

Are you planning on pulling thyroid panels? Hyperthyroidism can elevate shbg.

Sounds like that may be a good idea. I will get that done soon.

Originally Posted by kelkel

If you know what the problem is then address the problem. Don't band aid it with TRT. Your TT level is fantastic so I'd strongly suggest working on correcting your binding issue. Shutting down your HPTA is not the correct course of action in your situation, imho. Who knows what a clinic will do as their goal is to make money and turning people down doesn't accomplish that mission.

Thanks for the advice Kelkel. It means a lot. I looked around on google for avenacosides but it is so hard to trust what you are getting in the supplement industry. Do you have any suggestions? This is a legal substance so hopefully this is not considered a request for a source.

**Pneuma** · 12-13-2016, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by BRUTAL

dam those are a fantastic T levels - alot people on here are chasing such numbers pinning their glutes religiously... I think no way you should go on TRT, all you need to do as kelkel said get thyroid and shbg tested to see deeper in to this, other than that, what was you quest for checking your numbers after all?

Thanks for the feedback!
To answer your question: I haven't had blood work done since I was in my early 20s so I was curious. I am getting to the age where I am not recovering as fast from training and I was wondering if that would be reflected in my blood work i.e. T levels. And to be completely honest I would love to have a boost in athletic performance and feel like I was 24 instead of how I feel now. I don't know if this matters but, I am taking my yearly break from training between Thanksgiving and Christmas. I got my blood done in this time frame so training stress would not be a factor. I would be interested to see my T levels when I am training at full tilt. My naive understanding is that training load affects T levels. If I can attain better recovery and quicker strength/mass gains without HRT for several more years I am totally game. But I have a hard time believing my training/performance wouldn't benefit from T supplementation. I don't want a band-aid, I want a boost. All said though, I don't want to pull the rug out from under my natural HPTA.

**BRUTAL** · 12-13-2016, 04:00 PM

I believe you need to test have your full thyroid panel tests done, and test your shbg, thing is if you begin to pin/go on TRT, you will literally cut off your current production to ZERO/0000 T levels ok, and you will likely be to introduce something like 100-150mg test/week just to replace this current level of endogenous test you have right now with exogenous test, which in fact can cause irreversible suppression to your HPTA, as you know, and you may need to pin for the rest of your life just to see if you can have stable hormone levels again while on T or feel like a complete mess without TRT and with natural T levels post PCT if you chose to come back greatly slashed down. For most TRT may mean one way road, for some its in and out lucky, however long term effects are not well known or studied but its clear as day once you step on this side of the game it will affect you negatively sooner than later.

I would greatly revise your training protocols/diet/supplements and general lifestyle habits/schedules just so you dont break yourself before you really do something irreversible.

Pullback from training is good idea time to time, especially if you have been training strong and heavy for a long time. Take a good care of yourself man, dont rush in to things, because what you currently have many would envy and trade good things for to have it.

**kelkel** · 12-13-2016, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by Pneuma

Thanks for the advice Kelkel. It means a lot. I looked around on google for avenacosides but it is so hard to trust what you are getting in the supplement industry. Do you have any suggestions? This is a legal substance so hopefully this is not considered a request for a source.

First get the proper BW. Include Vit D (25 hydroxy) as well as a thyroid panel to include TSH, FT3, FT4 at a minimum. More if the doc allows it. Then see where you stand. Ramp up your D if needed and if unsure about avena just get stinging nettle. What Brutal said is accurate. You have a phenominal total test level. Don't mess with it.

If you can't correct this on your own, or simply don't want to wait (which we understand) I'd reach out to Dr. John Crisler (Michigan) or similar doc of his quality and make a virtual appointment. He's about the best in the business and is experienced in dealing with elevated SHBG.

**hammerheart** · 12-14-2016, 01:40 AM

Wow, that means an estimated SHBG of over 100 nmol/l, which is really high.

Sometimes it's a physiologic condition, but if you haven't always felt that way, it's likely reversible.

Have you been dieting recently, especially low carb? SHBG can also reflect nutritional status.

Another important thing to consider is xenoestrogen exposure from environment. Do you eat/drink from plastic containers?

**Pneuma** · 12-14-2016, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

Wow, that means an estimated SHBG of over 100 nmol/l, which is really high.

Sometimes it's a physiologic condition, but if you haven't always felt that way, it's likely reversible.

Thanks for the input!
I am curious of what physiologic conditions could lead to that. It's funny you said that, I have felt this way for long time! I have gone to the doctor with fatigue symptoms before but it was when I was a lot younger. They didn't do anything for me. You have to actually be sick for anyone to do anything about a condition, so I quit asking the doctor and accepted my fatigue. We all want to be optimized, not just "un-sick" our medical establishment is crippled in America.
I have always been aware of my athletic peers (people with similar skill/strength level as me) seem to have more energy than me. I have just gritted my teeth and pushed through. But, through the years I have wondered why.

Originally Posted by bizzarro

Have you been dieting recently, especially low carb? SHBG can also reflect nutritional status.

My current blood work was not taken during dieting. During the period between Thanksgiving and Christmas I don't diet or train. I certainly still watch what I eat, but this period is a time for me to take a break. It is also a time for me to reassess what I will do differently for the coming year and make some informed changes if need be.
By nutritional status I assume you mean calories in vs. calories out? For my activities strength/power-to-weight is the most important thing. So maintaining leanness and not being over-muscled are assets in most respects. I could definitely serve to put some on muscle in the right places. I am a hard gainer anyway, but I have always tried to keep my weight down because if I get too heavy, I will injure myself. I have no blood work numbers to compare to these most recent ones but a pretty low carb diet is a common eating strategy I use to stay lean.

Originally Posted by bizzarro

Another important thing to consider is xenoestrogen exposure from environment. Do you eat/drink from plastic containers?

While I try to avoid plastics exposure as much as possible, it is impossible to eliminate it. Meat is wrapped in plastic, it seems like everything is exposed to plastic at some point in its processing.

**Pneuma** · 12-14-2016, 03:07 PM

I found this article If anyone is interested in lowering their SHBG:

Apparently I can't post the link because I don't have a high enough post count on here but you could find it by searching:

ivannikolov how-to-stimulate-testosterone -production-naturally

It gives suggested a cycling protocol. I priced everything out and ironically it would be more costly to do this than it would for TRT. haha. None-the-less, I will start gathering all of the stuff and try this when the time is right.

**Pneuma** · 12-14-2016, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

First get the proper BW. Include Vit D (25 hydroxy) as well as a thyroid panel to include TSH, FT3, FT4 at a minimum. More if the doc allows it. Then see where you stand. Ramp up your D if needed and if unsure about avena just get stinging nettle. What Brutal said is accurate. You have a phenominal total test level. Don't mess with it.

If you can't correct this on your own, or simply don't want to wait (which we understand) I'd reach out to Dr. John Crisler (Michigan) or similar doc of his quality and make a virtual appointment. He's about the best in the business and is experienced in dealing with elevated SHBG.

Great! Thanks so much! I'll update this thread when I get more info.

**hammerheart** · 12-14-2016, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Pneuma

Thanks for the input!
I am curious of what physiologic conditions could lead to that. It's funny you said that, I have felt this way for long time! I have gone to the doctor with fatigue symptoms before but it was when I was a lot younger. They didn't do anything for me. You have to actually be sick for anyone to do anything about a condition, so I quit asking the doctor and accepted my fatigue. We all want to be optimized, not just "un-sick" our medical establishment is crippled in America.
I have always been aware of my athletic peers (people with similar skill/strength level as me) seem to have more energy than me. I have just gritted my teeth and pushed through. But, through the years I have wondered why.

Then you might have a chronic SHBG problem. Some ppl display high levels without an obvious causative factor. If that's your case, there is chance not even TRT will help.

I sense your very healthy total T levels might be from the hypothalamus detecting very low T levels and trying to compensate via increasing LH secretion, and that's as much as your HTPA can pull.

Heck, that's the free T level I had with a total of 150 ng/dl.