HCG in PCT

**Ryanc** · 05-21-2004, 03:04 PM

Ok, I've been reading a lot about this subject. From what I've read I've found a couple of things.

1. HCG inhibits clomid
2. HCG alone will not prompt permanent recovery, only temporarily mimicking LH.
3. There are several studies which show that nolvadex alone, without clomid can bring sufficient recovery.

So what do you guys think about using hcg with nolvadex post cycle. Using the hcg to gain some size in you're boys while the nolvadex gets you recovered. I know nolvadex and clomid are very similar compounds, however I've found nothing about hcg inhibiting nolvadex as far as recovery is concerned.

I've got a few friends who have done this, and kept better gains than with clomid and nolvadex, but the recent view is that hcg has no place in pct.

**IHateCrunches** · 05-21-2004, 03:13 PM

500ius, twice a week starting week two is your better bet. Swoles PCT and other threads.. have made me believe 100% that its better to use while cycling becasue then its easier to recover.. not to mentrion you shouldnt do more then 500ius a day. More frequent is betetr then more at once.

**bubbathegut** · 05-21-2004, 06:08 PM

on the HCG with 2 bottles, i am assuming u just mix the liquid with the powder? just making sure....

**trailrider38** · 05-21-2004, 06:14 PM

My HCG rule,

you should use hcg only to plump up shrivled testicles before you start pct

**Ryanc** · 05-21-2004, 07:23 PM

But does that actually boost you're pct's progress, or is it just for those of us too insecure to walk around with tiny nuts for a couple of weeks. Because it would be of no legitamate use if it was only to make you're balls look big.

**trailrider38** · 05-21-2004, 11:07 PM

well if you hav e shrunkin nads do you think they will produce much test on their own when they do get the signal from pct?

**J*U*icEd** · 05-22-2004, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by trailrider38

My HCG rule,

you should use hcg only to plump up shrivled testicles before you start pct

agreed....use it for 2-3 weeks during the middle of your cycle as well!

**HollywoodM3** · 05-22-2004, 05:36 AM

I use it on a long cycle 15wks around wks 7 and 8, just to keep things going, I also get a nice boost in strengh,

HM

**Austex** · 05-22-2004, 12:21 PM

500 IU's of HCG is not enough to restore testicular function. If you decided to run HCG throughout your entire cycle, which I don't recommend, this would be an appropriate doseage. A mid-cycle dose of HCG should be between 2000-5000 IU on day 1 and every 5 days after for a total of 3 administrations.

**Ryanc** · 05-22-2004, 12:33 PM

Everyone seems to have a different opinion on how hcg is most appropriately used, and dosed. Does anyone have any conclusive info on this subject?

**cpt steele** · 05-22-2004, 04:33 PM

oh pheedno !!!!!

***Pheedno*** · 05-23-2004, 04:04 PM

500iu's Mon/Tues throughout the cycle would be my suggestion.

DO NOT USE HCG IN PCT. HCG mimicks LH, which is what your trying to recover. If the body detects LH, it will not upstart natural production, as it doesn't have a need to. Run it up to PCT, but absolutely do not combine it with your SERMs

**IHateCrunches** · 05-23-2004, 04:16 PM

Personally to anyone here who is suggestiong run HCG at more then 1000iu's in a signle day i would love to see some evidence of why this is better. I suggest liek satted above 500ius every 5 days starting after week 2. I am not on this site enough to get it today.. but later on i will show you the threads and reads that have made me believe to go form pct to all throughout cycle. Ill post within one day

**Ryanc** · 05-23-2004, 07:15 PM

Hey pheedno, is that 500ius monday AND tuesday or monday OR tuesday? Thanks for you're help...

**whiteyk** · 05-23-2004, 09:04 PM

....use bacterio static water it will make the HCG last longer

***Pheedno*** · 05-24-2004, 08:26 AM

Every Mon and Tues

**Austex** · 05-25-2004, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by IHateCrunches

Personally to anyone here who is suggestiong run HCG at more then 1000iu's in a signle day i would love to see some evidence of why this is better. I suggest liek satted above 500ius every 5 days starting after week 2. I am not on this site enough to get it today.. but later on i will show you the threads and reads that have made me believe to go form pct to all throughout cycle. Ill post within one day

Until I see actual EVIDENCE that a dose of 500 IU's is sufficient, I'm sorry but I will still argue that 2000-5000 IU's is more precise for a steroid user. I have attached 4 reference quotes with the corresponding URL so you can read the entire articles. Only 1 of these references suggests using 500-1000 IU's.

***JohnnyB*** · 05-25-2004, 06:38 PM

Using smaller doses is better then larger doses. Most Bro that go with the hcg in the middle of the cycle or the 2 weeks before the cycle, usally don't understand the idea behind using it through the cycle.

Using it twice a week during the cycle helps keep the boys alive it doesn't help keep test levels up. The reason you want to keep them alive is so that recovery will be easier. You say what's the difference between keeping them alive or bringing them back from the died. Recovery is better if they're kept at normal size during a cycle, espesially if it's a long cycle. I don't see how doing it the middle of a cycle helps.

I know these are the ways it used to be done, I know their are guys out there that don't like SWALE so they refuse to agree with him and quote old info. I have no problem with that, we do what we have reseached and feel is best for our own body.

Doing lower doses is better then higher doses, I'll post a study showing this to be ture.

JohnnyB

***JohnnyB*** · 05-25-2004, 06:45 PM

Posted by hhajdo at S'ology

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1984 Feb;58(2):327-31 Related Articles, Links

Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).

JohnnyB

***JohnnyB*** · 05-25-2004, 06:52 PM

Like I said this doesn't need to be a bone of contention but an area where we can agree to disagree. Do what works for you, go with what you feel is best for you because it boils down to wee are the ones that are going to live with our bodies.

If you've never read SWALEs PCT Protocol here's a link, read it he is an HRT Dr so he has a professinal insight that we don't have.

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/sh...threadid=22574

JohnnyB

**Demon Deacon** · 05-25-2004, 07:39 PM

Johnny B thanks for reposting that. I wanted to see that again but was too lazy to go through all your posts to find it. Thanks bro

***JohnnyB*** · 05-25-2004, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Demon Deacon

Johnny B thanks for reposting that. I wanted to see that again but was too lazy to go through all your posts to find it. Thanks bro

JohnnyB

**mark956101957** · 05-25-2004, 07:57 PM

There are differing views on this but my final thought is do not use it during pct but during the cycle as Pheedno stated. I have had great success with 500 iu E3D or E4D with every second day for the first week to kick start them. Now they are back up to almost where they are off cycle...thank god....

**Austex** · 05-25-2004, 08:59 PM

Johnny B...thanks for the documentation. That was exactly the kind of test I had wanted to see. Only question I have is that the testing was conducted in 1984. Wasn't this about the same time that doctrined steroid tests were performed and "proved" steroids did not induce anabolic growth? Regardless, thanks for posting.

***JohnnyB*** · 05-25-2004, 10:19 PM

Could be the same time, glad this is about AAS. All kidding aside you can find studies done with a slant on them, but for the most part they're good for basic info.

JohnnyB