A challenge to militiaguy

[Cycleon]

I defy you or any other muslim here to find me any proof that the quran requires women to wear a burqua or a hijab or chador - in fact dress in any way at all except to dress "modestly" - all that other crap is a modern arab invention - not one bit of religion in it only the repressive tradition of goathearders who think of women as their slaves. - Look at the drawings we have of the islamic societies up untill just the last 100-200 years and you will not find it - even in the ottoman empires, or anywhere else

and do not give me this crap about women wearing it so that arab men can value them not for their looks but rather their minds and modesty - because arab men value women about as much as they do a dog - the woman is really only safe if she has his children - then, while he will screw other women, he will want to keep her at least as "mother of his children" - women have no voice whatsoever

[Da Bull]

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[barbarian]

yea lets hear it..........

[MilitiaGuy]

I defy you or any other muslim here to find me any proof that the quran requires women to wear a burqua or a hijab or chador - in fact dress in any way at all except to dress "modestly" - all that other crap is a modern arab invention - not one bit of religion in it only the repressive tradition of goathearders who think of women as their slaves. - Look at the drawings we have of the islamic societies up untill just the last 100-200 years and you will not find it - even in the ottoman empires, or anywhere else

and do not give me this crap about women wearing it so that arab men can value them not for their looks but rather their minds and modesty - because arab men value women about as much as they do a dog - the woman is really only safe if she has his children - then, while he will screw other women, he will want to keep her at least as "mother of his children" - women have no voice whatsoever

Allah, the Creator of humans, knows our nature better than ourselves, and thus He has prescribed appropriate rules of behavior and appearance to be observed when men and women interact with one another. These rules of interaction also include a prescription for modest dressing, which applies to men as well as women. Almighty Allah says, "Say to the believing men to lower their gazes and guard their chastity…” (An-Nur: 30) He also says: “And tell the believing women to lower their eyes, and guard their modesty, and that they display not their ornaments except what appears of them.” (An-Nur: 31)


In his response to the question in point, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:


You are commended for your desire to set the matter straight on the matter of hijab. You are also to be commended for your attempt to find the required information through the most authentic sources in Islam, namely the Qur’an and the Sunnah.


Having said this, however, I must advise you to approach these sources by using the proper methodology;. Since the Qur’an was revealed in the Arabic language, we must understand its meanings by reference to the usage and conventions of that language. To use a translation, however accurate it may be, often does not properly convey the full nuances of the revealed Word.


Let us now turn to the specific verse on hijab in the Qur’an: “And tell the believing women to lower their eyes, and guard their modesty, and that they display not their ornaments except what appears of them. And that they draw their scarves (khumurihinna) over their bosoms…” (An-Nur: 31)


The word used in this context is khumur which has been variously translated as veils or scarves; the latter is more precise for it is the plural of khimar, which has been defined as “a woman’s head covering; a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head.” (See Ibn Manzur, Lisan al-`Arab.) Imam Raghib al-Isfahani in his famous work, Mufradat alfadh al-Qur’an defines the terms by saying, “The root meaning of the word is to cover, and the khimar, therefore, is the cover or veil, but it has become synonymous with veil with which a woman covers her head (i.e., headscarf); the plural of the word is khumur (as used in the Qur’an: An-Nur: 31).” Because, according to the Arabic usage, covering the head is the most important function of khimar, no scholar in the past that we know of has ever disputed the fact that women are commanded by Allah to cover their heads; they only argued whether the face and hands are also included in the above order. The majority of scholars are of the opinion that they are allowed to uncover their faces and hands.


Furthermore, one of the basic principles of the Qur’anic exegesis is that we must seek to understand the Qur’anic verses as they were originally revealed to, received, understood, and applied by the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), both men and women. We have incontrovertible evidence in the sources to suggest that it is in the above sense, and in the above sense alone, that they related to, and applied the above verse. We read the report of `A’ishah, the beloved wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who said: “By Allah, I never saw more excellent women than those of the Ansar in their zeal to believe and act according to the Revelation. When Allah revealed the verse, “and let them draw their veils over their bosoms”, their men rushed to their homes in order to recite the same to their wives, daughters and sisters and relatives. No sooner they heard the verse, everyone of their women without exception rushed to cut a piece of their long gowns and covered themselves with it, and thus they stood behind the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) with their heads covered as if they had crows sitting on them (because of the color of their head-scarves)!” (See Tafsir works such as those of Ibn Jarir, al-Qurtubi and Ibn Kathir, etc.)


In light of the above, it is easy to conclude that covering the head (and not the face and hands) is a stated requirement of the proper Islamic attire for Muslim women. It is clearly not one of those scholarly interpretations which one may choose to accept or ignore but a clear commandment of Allah stated in the Qur’an. May Allah guard us all against the evil inclinations of our souls and help us to remain steadfast on the truth. Amen.

[LilVito469]

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u crack me up LOL....

[RP7]

Militiaguy that picture in your sig looks like some ****ed up Palestinian nazi rally

[MilitiaGuy]

Militiaguy that picture in your sig looks like some ****ed up Palestinian nazi rally

this is the hizbollah brigade wher i served ...not palestinians

[BajanBastard]

Militiaguy that picture in your sig looks like some ****ed up Palestinian nazi rally

It DOES look like i nazi party rally. Hail Hitler!! LOL

[BOUNCER]

Bull, thats one seriously funny reply.

[Ryanhallmark]

Ahhh I don't get it..I just don't understand arab counties....And I don't want to sound naive, but who the hell are the hizbollah brigade ?? Some military group?

[physio_sport]

Ahhh I don't get it..I just don't understand arab counties....And I don't want to sound naive, but who the hell are the hizbollah brigade ?? Some military group?

its a lebenease political party/para-militry.
what they are is questionable depending where you live in the world.
if you live in israel,america,turkey you could consider them a terrorist orginisation but then again these countries call anyone a terrorist who they dont like. right now usa has cuba and north korea on the list of state sponsers of terrorism and the list of "axis of evil".
while in the other parts of the world mainly alot of european countres,middle east,asia all consider hezbollah a freedom figthing group or political party or a para-militry.

[juicehoe]

its a lebenease political party/para-militry.
what they are is questionable depending where you live in the world.
if you live in israel,america,turkey you could consider them a terrorist orginisation but then again these countries call anyone a terrorist who they dont like. right now usa has cuba and north korea on the list of state sponsers of terrorism and the list of "axis of evil".
while in the other parts of the world mainly alot of european countres,middle east,asia all consider hezbollah a freedom figthing group or political party or a para-militry.

not to hijack, but are u doubting north korea as a foe?

[chicamahomico]

They are the world's most fierce and powerful army......when one of thier warriors rasies his arms overhead the smell can render a hundred square miles uninhabitable for generations.

Bump for this debate to continue. I think MGuy provided ample explanation but with the translation clause I am not sur ethis debate could go much further.

Ahhh I don't get it..I just don't understand arab counties....And I don't want to sound naive, but who the hell are the hizbollah brigade ?? Some military group?

[palequail]

I care lots about this.....keep going please..J/k

[PrairieDawg]

yeah your sig isnt helping your image any militaguy

[Spoon]

ive seen how supposedly holymen treat women in Afghanistan. women were not allowed to read, education to them was banned and they were treated and flogged like ordinary beasts of burden. Although Afghanistan being the worst case possible example, other muslim nations generally have a culture of degradation and repression towards their women.

[rambo]

So yeah. I read militia's reply and I still don't understand how a burka can be taken from the etymology of the word initially used for "head covering." You might make a case for the standard hijab, but the article skirted the issue by dousing itself in serializations.

[BajanBastard]

It's all about opression IMO the burka, women can't leave the house without a male reletive, women can't devorce a man, woman can't drive, all mad cleric crap.

[Spoon]

It's all about opression IMO the burka, women can't leave the house without a male reletive, women can't devorce a man, woman can't drive, all mad cleric crap.

whats even worse is that women are still considered 2nd class citizens and in some islamic countries men can flog and whip their wives in public. youl be surprised that some countries still get away with cruel treatment to women.

[3Vandoo]

Some people needs a leasson.

The veil, whatever you call it, Ninja suit, imperial guards.... Is from a rule in Medina, dued to the facts that the rape level was so high, that Mohamed decreated a law that all women to be veiled. But, for the traditional, everything Mo said is sacred, so if I law was based by him then its gold and should be treated as the same as God said. This wasnt imposed by God, but as a civil rules that was temporary. Now, this tradition continued to the Muslim world as fair, but it is not.

Also, you need to separate the Arabication of Islam and the real message of Islam itself

Also Militia Bob, CAN YOU SAY GOD!!!!! Allah is Arabic for God, and we all have the same God, thats something that pissing me of the Allah word, **** it!

I hate your pic, they are wearing Maroon berets! I have the privilege of wearing one as im a real Maroon Beret holder, not some militia freaks that think the special privileges of wearing one seems cool and nice! Have you jumped from an Airplane?

[BOUNCER]

Have you jumped from an Airplane?

For Allahs sake, DON'T MENTION THE AIRPLANES!

[RP7]

this is the hizbollah brigade wher i served ...not palestinians

Are you guys pretending you're airborne with those maroon berets?

[Warrior]

I see some of them Arab woman wearing the abiya's (sp?) and know for a fact they are HOT! You can tell a hot girl by her body language... how she sits, folds her arms and what not. But as an Arab friend of mine told me, "Don't let beautiful eyes fool you..." A major problem is that many Arabs are arranged to marry their cousins - that just leads to an f'ed up gene pool...

[3vil3lmo]

Uhh, look at the royal family, they're all incest ****ed up bastards.
Also, no matter where you are in the world, religious fundamentalists are always lame, and restrictive.

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED BY FUNDAMENTALISTS! Look at nuns habits, some older women who were bought up by a strict relgious family still wear a head scarf whenever they go out.
Too some women, opening a door for them, pulling out the chair for them to sit down is demeaning etc.
So before you start throwing rocks at my religion, look at your own.

Oh another thing, read in your bible, the old testiment. Plenty of kill non-worshipers in there.
Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. That was considered legitimate for a very long time.

edit: Finally, the Arabic/Islamic culture was far ahead of the west. Before the crusades, you still **** in buckets and throw it out the window. Medicine wasn't practiced, art was ****, so was the music. Then you stole our ideas, and took them home for you own. Best example, look at the way you ride horses, bent legs, came up by us Before then, you all rode straight legged.

[Warrior]

I must be going to hell 'cause I am not a devoted Catholic, Muslim, or whateva. All I know is to live my life with some dignity, believe that there does exist something greater than myself and that all good people deserve respect unless they sh!t on me, my family, my friends or generally decent people. In life, anything in excess is unhealthy; too much booze, too many woman, too much whatever... moderation is the key - and allowing religious beliefs to consume your every thought, IMO, is not healthy.

If I go to "hell" for how I live my life - than let me be judged as such... but while I am alive - I am just doin' my best brah

[alevok]

My mom does not wear burka neither my grandmom, clothes are just clothes, what counts is the faith in your heart. They cover their heads when they prey only, ignorant and fundemantal people wear those kind of crap, modern muslims as my self and my family do not believe this kind of b.****. Women wear those kind of crap not because they want to, just because they are afraid of their male relatives, those types of women depend their lives on their husbands or fathers and have no choice but covering up. And covering up does not make one a true muslim. I have known horny covered girls, they are covered because they do not have a choice. Unfortunately even in my country there is a wind of change, our prime minister (who hates Ataturk, founder of our republic and national hero)is a very fundementalist person whose wife is all covered, first time in our history. He wants a regime like they have in Iran, he wants old fashion Islam and a nation ruled by Islam, it aint gonna happen, there are more modern muslims than ignorant muslims in this country and modern muslims will regain the control of the country AGAIN.
For many years modern Turkey set a good example of a Islamic country for many other muslims country. Turkey is the only secular muslim country and must stay that way.
I believe all islamic countries must change and stop living in old fashion ways, and prove the world that Islam can be adopted to our time.

[3vil3lmo]

Are you implying that I am a bad father and husband? My wife has CHOSEN to wear her burka. Not because of her father, he was murdered. Nor because of me, I have never asked her about it. Nor have I ever hit her when she hasnt.

Please, do not imply that women to not wish to wear it.

[bad_man]

ive seen how supposedly holymen treat women in Afghanistan. women were not allowed to read, education to them was banned and they were treated and flogged like ordinary beasts of burden. Although Afghanistan being the worst case possible example, other muslim nations generally have a culture of degradation and repression towards their women.

I've seen how supposed holymen (Catholic Priests) treat little boys in downtown Philadelphia, Boston, New York, etc. Don't allow the actions of a bunch of jerkoffs to create in your mind an assessment of an entire race or religion.

[Spoon]

I've seen how supposed holymen (Catholic Priests) treat little boys in downtown Philadelphia, Boston, New York, etc. Don't allow the actions of a bunch of jerkoffs to create in your mind an assessment of an entire race or religion.

true bro, my point was that their are bad eggs even the supposedly "holy men" the catholic church and men of the cloth not spared. im glad you brought that up. the point is the way some of these hardcore old muslims still treat women bad, most muslims countries have already given women equal status and oppurtunities. its the few that is still giving the entiritey a bad name.

[singern]

[QUOTE=while in the other parts of the world mainly alot of european countres,middle east,asia all consider hezbollah a freedom figthing group or political party or a para-militry.[/QUOTE]



Fighting freedom from who. Lebanon is occupied by Syria, overrun by Syrian military, and controlled by Iranian Hizbula, yet they attack Israel. That sure seems like cross border international TERRORISM to me, and should to any other rational person.

[BajanBastard]

Uhh, look at the royal family, they're all incest ****ed up bastards.
Also, no matter where you are in the world, religious fundamentalists are always lame, and restrictive.

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED BY FUNDAMENTALISTS! Look at nuns habits, some older women who were bought up by a strict relgious family still wear a head scarf whenever they go out.
Too some women, opening a door for them, pulling out the chair for them to sit down is demeaning etc.
So before you start throwing rocks at my religion, look at your own.

Oh another thing, read in your bible, the old testiment. Plenty of kill non-worshipers in there.
Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. That was considered legitimate for a very long time.

edit: Finally, the Arabic/Islamic culture was far ahead of the west. Before the crusades, you still **** in buckets and throw it out the window. Medicine wasn't practiced, art was ****, so was the music. Then you stole our ideas, and took them home for you own. Best example, look at the way you ride horses, bent legs, came up by us Before then, you all rode straight legged.

I have a question my friend, then why is music forbidden in alot of islamic countries? one other thing no one here is throwing rocks at your religon IMO, but I will sure as hell throw rocks at those damm clerics who spread their crap.....even you came to this site showing edited footage of war saying U.S troops kill arabs and love doing it.

[juicehoe]

I must be going to hell 'cause I am not a devoted Catholic, Muslim, or whateva. All I know is to live my life with some dignity, believe that there does exist something greater than myself and that all good people deserve respect unless they sh!t on me, my family, my friends or generally decent people. In life, anything in excess is unhealthy; too much booze, too many woman, too much whatever... moderation is the key - and allowing religious beliefs to consume your every thought, IMO, is not healthy.

If I go to "hell" for how I live my life - than let me be judged as such... but while I am alive - I am just doin' my best brah

AMEN to that

[MilitiaGuy]

I hate your pic, they are wearing Maroon berets! I have the privilege of wearing one as im a real Maroon Beret holder, not some militia freaks that think the special privileges of wearing one seems cool and nice! Have you jumped from an Airplane?

its different her those beret are the berets of the snipers team.

[inheritmylife]

its different her those beret are the berets of the snipers team.

In most modern i9nfantry units, maroon stands for airborn units.

Black, or green would be more suitable for a sniper unit.

[inheritmylife]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED BY FUNDAMENTALISTS!

Wrong, try again.

[Rhino58]

A major problem is that many Arabs are arranged to marry their cousins - that just leads to an f'ed up gene pool...

That is funny

[3vil3lmo]

Wrong, try again.

Sorry they left England because they were scared of persecution, there name were, Puritans. The believed in the old style of everything, and your conservatives today have the same beliefs as them.

Bling. I'm right.

[Rhino58]

Titties, big plump titties!!!

[3vil3lmo]

Uhhh, thanks for that input.

[barbarian]

I must be going to hell 'cause I am not a devoted Catholic, Muslim, or whateva. All I know is to live my life with some dignity, believe that there does exist something greater than myself and that all good people deserve respect unless they sh!t on me, my family, my friends or generally decent people. In life, anything in excess is unhealthy; too much booze, too many woman, too much whatever... moderation is the key - and allowing religious beliefs to consume your every thought, IMO, is not healthy.

If I go to "hell" for how I live my life - than let me be judged as such... but while I am alive - I am just doin' my best brah

bro im with ya 100% thats exactly how i feel about things.....