Lesbian and Gay parents?!?!?!?

[einstein1905]

Imagine what kids in school would do to a kid that had 2 gay dads. If anyone found out he would be humiliated to the extreme and probably lead to suicide one day. Thats what happens in these kind of abnormal environments.

Case and point.....those outside of the situation are the cause of the "problem"

[VIXI]

That happens in the movies...it's called drama...it really isn't that big of a deal anymore...not in these times...

Imagine what kids in school would do to a kid that had 2 gay dads. If anyone found out he would be humiliated to the extreme and probably lead to suicide one day. Thats what happens in these kind of abnormal environments.

[Maraxus]

Depends on where you live really. Down here I don't see it being a problem. Now I dont know about West Virginia, or other places....

[Pale Horse]

That's the problem. No one wants to hurt someones feelings, make a judgement etc...
it's a gray world that most live in. For me personally it is black and white, no in betweens, right and wrong no in betweens. I have not said that gay/lesbian couples are incapapable of being caring,nuturing etc.. it is still not the right environment for children. My best friends mom is a lesbian this is not a gray area.

He struggled with it his whole life and sometimes still does. People that want to say it's better than a child being abused etc... no sh*t. It's also better than them being set on fire with gasoline too. Bottom line period kids need a father figure and a mother figure.
I'm done with this one.

[Maraxus]

Or a butch lesbian.

[Testsubject]

Im gonna have to put my .02 in on this one, and my .02 is fukc gays and fukc lesbians, I dont care what your beliefs are, man was created for woman, man wasnt created for man nor was woman created for woman. NO I am not a homophobic but I think, no wait, I KNOW that being gay is wrong and disgusting and not the way it was supposed to work, but someone decided to twist things right up and now people think it OK. Think about it this way, If you walk into a hardware store or any similar type of store and you go to the section where they have nails and screws and nuts and bolts and washers and all that stuff, if you go and pick up a bolt with one hand and pick up a bolt with the other hand and try to make them fit together does it work????? I dont think so!! And if you were to pick up a nut with one hand and a nut with the other hand and try to put THEM together does that work????? NO!!! A bolt was meant to fit together with a nut just the same as a man was meant to fit together with a woman.

[decadbal]

I had this discussion a while back. It is wrong in so many ways. I will not get in the same argument with the same people I did last time.

i dont see this thread going anywhere but downhill, so maybe it should be closed..

[Testsubject]

i dont see this thread going anywhere but downhill, so maybe it should be closed..

Probably a good idea, cuz I getting a little rattled over here, I just dont know why thread like this are posted theres no real point in talking about this stuff.

[einstein1905]

Threads like this are healthy. Hopefully, they can allow people to get past the superficial aspects of complex situations and look well beyond mere anatomy. There's a lot of things that "fit together" structurally, that it no way implies they are meant to be together.

If you "know" homosexuality is "wrong", then why does it exist? Don't give me the"it's a choice" crap, either. As a heterosexual person, you can tell me that you could "choose" to be aroused by a person of the same sex? It's not a matter of choice....acting on your sexual feelings is a matter of choice but not the feelings themselves. You and everyone else has known a young child, and you've said to yourself, "that kid is gay" (or whatever term you used. You know it. 8 years old and you know it, and it ends up being the case. You don't have to be able to explain why you know it, but it's obvious. Homosexuality if clearly natural, even though it's statistically abnormal.

The "wrongness" in it comes from being taught that it's wrong.


Clearly, the unspoken issue here is religion in most cases. So, asking someone to set aside their adopted dogmas and think rationally about something gets to be a touchy subject. The fact is, if someone evaluates the scenario strictly on a logical/rational basis, devoid of what they've been programmed to believe, things are much clearer, and you can see the world for what it is rather than what you are told it is.

[Pale Horse]

Einstein,

Are you sure you are not a Vulcan? You make very valid logical points. I just think that whether a boy or a girl each need the influence of parents of different sexes. Just as I think that a child raised by a single parent suffers. Children get things intrinsically (sp?) that we can't see from mothers and fathers. One can't put a label on it or perhaps even prove it but that is my belief, which may be wrong.

[Blown_SC]

Valid post Einstein....

[Quake]

My best friends are a lesbian couple and are pregnant as we speak....and I couldn't see a child experiencing more love and care then these two beautiful people could provide...the birth mother being adopted herself wants nothing more in life then to have a child to share her life with the way her parents chose to do for her...and Lacy had more problems with the men in her life than she cares to even think about...the life and pain a child would have had to bear in her straight abusive relationship couldn't possibly be better than the world these souls will have created for their new joy...I don't even think of it in the terms of right or wrong ....just awesome

That really saddens me. It's great that you find happiness in other peoples happiness, that shows you to be a warm and caring person, but you fail to see the possible heartache that this situation can bring. The possibility of one persons unhappiness is too much of a risk to take IMO for the happiness of two (or more) people. Gay and lesbian couples who want to feel like mothers/fathers should take into account that by nature this takes a man and a woman to achieve this, two women or two men cannot achieve this. This should be accepted and with this acceptance should be the acceptance that the life they have chosen holds with it responsibilities and that this should be one of them.

[Quake]

Imagine what kids in school would do to a kid that had 2 gay dads. If anyone found out he would be humiliated to the extreme and probably lead to suicide one day. Thats what happens in these kind of abnormal environments.

That is exactly the type of thing that gay/lesbian couples thinking of having children should take in to account! And it's no use saying "it won't happen to ours" or "We'll make sure they can deal with it" because that is BS! It's persuasive reasoning to get what they want when what they should be doing is realising that not everyone gets what they want. The possible costs are just way too high!

[Quake]

That happens in the movies...it's called drama...it really isn't that big of a deal anymore...not in these times...

You really don't know what you are talking about! I suggest you have a chat with your local Mental Health Department and ask them about teenage problems "in these times". Whilst psychology etc have come a long way and are now much more efficient in dealing with problems, the best solution is to not have the problem in the first place, and that is exactly what could be achieved with such a thing as this. It needs a little more understanding on peoples part.

And I don't agree with the idea that the problem is with others reaction to gay/lesbians. Nature is how it is, there isn't anyone short of God who can change this, and while, as I said, there are oddities in nature, they are a minority, and this goes for gays/lesbians too. They are always going to be a minority, and so an oddity in many peoples eyes, and when you are a youngster this is so much clearer, understanding comes as you grow older.

[Quake]

Im gonna have to put my .02 in on this one, and my .02 is fukc gays and fukc lesbians, I dont care what your beliefs are, man was created for woman, man wasnt created for man nor was woman created for woman. NO I am not a homophobic but I think, no wait, I KNOW that being gay is wrong and disgusting and not the way it was supposed to work, but someone decided to twist things right up and now people think it OK. Think about it this way, If you walk into a hardware store or any similar type of store and you go to the section where they have nails and screws and nuts and bolts and washers and all that stuff, if you go and pick up a bolt with one hand and pick up a bolt with the other hand and try to make them fit together does it work????? I dont think so!! And if you were to pick up a nut with one hand and a nut with the other hand and try to put THEM together does that work????? NO!!! A bolt was meant to fit together with a nut just the same as a man was meant to fit together with a woman.

Amen! Nature is the final word! (But don't forget the oddities!)

[Quake]

Threads like this are healthy. Hopefully, they can allow people to get past the superficial aspects of complex situations and look well beyond mere anatomy. There's a lot of things that "fit together" structurally, that it no way implies they are meant to be together.


The "wrongness" in it comes from being taught that it's wrong.

You forget that the topic of the thread is with regards to concieving children and their upbringing. In the process of concieving, it takes a man and a woman to make this so. This is clear cut no possible argument. This being the case and being that which children know when they get to a certain age, the whole "what they are taught" argument goes out the window, for they cannot possibly be taught anything else.

Male + Female = Babies, anything else just doesn't work.

[Testsubject]

Threads like this are healthy. Hopefully, they can allow people to get past the superficial aspects of complex situations and look well beyond mere anatomy. There's a lot of things that "fit together" structurally, that it no way implies they are meant to be together.

If you "know" homosexuality is "wrong", then why does it exist? Don't give me the"it's a choice" crap, either. As a heterosexual person, you can tell me that you could "choose" to be aroused by a person of the same sex? It's not a matter of choice....acting on your sexual feelings is a matter of choice but not the feelings themselves. You and everyone else has known a young child, and you've said to yourself, "that kid is gay" (or whatever term you used. You know it. 8 years old and you know it, and it ends up being the case. You don't have to be able to explain why you know it, but it's obvious. Homosexuality if clearly natural, even though it's statistically abnormal.

The "wrongness" in it comes from being taught that it's wrong.


Clearly, the unspoken issue here is religion in most cases. So, asking someone to set aside their adopted dogmas and think rationally about something gets to be a touchy subject. The fact is, if someone evaluates the scenario strictly on a logical/rational basis, devoid of what they've been programmed to believe, things are much clearer, and you can see the world for what it is rather than what you are told it is.

Hey brother, no offence to you AT ALL, your a great bro on this board.
BUT the simple fact of the matter is that it isnt right man, and it doesnt make any sence at all, if you want to get into detail, here it goes. Buy they way I am not one bit religious so that isnt effecting my view on this at all. Anyways like I said a bit earlier man was created for woman, weather you believe god created humans or wheather you believe in evolution, either way its quite clear that man was created for woman. Sorry if Im getting into too much detail but two penis' dont fit together and two vaginas dont fit together. It just doesnt work, but one of each defenety does fit together. And another thing I DO know its wrong, and do you want to know why it exsists???? Its b/c some loonie bin thought up the idea, and if one guy does it the next guy isnt going to thing its so bad and so on and so on, homosexuality hasnt been around since the beggining of time, so its quite obvious that someone just came up with the idea, and over the years people began to except it. If you were living in the 50s and 60s and people found uot you were gay you would get the living sh*t beat out of you. Nowadays there are gay rights and all that nonsence and gay PMs (in Canada) fighting for gay rights. It just goes to show you how corrupt and fukced up this world really is, 50 years ago you'd be and outcast if you were gay NOW you get walked all over if you think its wrong, something doesnt seen right.

[Quake]

homosexuality hasnt been around since the beggining of time, so its quite obvious that someone just came up with the idea, and over the years people began to except it.

I'm with you in your view for the most part, but I think you'll find that homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible. It is acclaimed as an evil, don't ask me what chapter etc, although I think it might be in Genesis. Someone else may know exactly......

Homosexuality has been around for a long time! You've got to accept that there are oddities in nature, but people rarely realise this until they grow quite a bit older (or have an avid interest in nature). Even so.....see previous posts.

[mass junkie]

Threads like this are healthy. Hopefully, they can allow people to get past the superficial aspects of complex situations and look well beyond mere anatomy. There's a lot of things that "fit together" structurally, that it no way implies they are meant to be together.

If you "know" homosexuality is "wrong", then why does it exist? Don't give me the"it's a choice" crap, either. As a heterosexual person, you can tell me that you could "choose" to be aroused by a person of the same sex? It's not a matter of choice....acting on your sexual feelings is a matter of choice but not the feelings themselves. You and everyone else has known a young child, and you've said to yourself, "that kid is gay" (or whatever term you used. You know it. 8 years old and you know it, and it ends up being the case. You don't have to be able to explain why you know it, but it's obvious. Homosexuality if clearly natural, even though it's statistically abnormal.

The "wrongness" in it comes from being taught that it's wrong.


Clearly, the unspoken issue here is religion in most cases. So, asking someone to set aside their adopted dogmas and think rationally about something gets to be a touchy subject. The fact is, if someone evaluates the scenario strictly on a logical/rational basis, devoid of what they've been programmed to believe, things are much clearer, and you can see the world for what it is rather than what you are told it is.

Very well put...if you were gay I'd let you put my balls in your mouth

[einstein1905]

What about Murderers, rapists, cannibals, child molesters. They are all oddities, so its it ok to go molest a ****ing kid? NO it is'nt.

Being left-handed is a statistical oddity, so is being 6' 6". Whether or not you see this as "freakish" is your call, but just because it's less frequent doesn't mean it's "wrong".



The idea that "some guy" started a homosexuality trend" is absolutely absurd. Who the hell is going to jump on that bandwagon? "yeah, being gay seems pretty cool, with all the alienation, discrimination and what not...nevermind the fact that I have no sexual desire for someone of the same sex,,,,,but hell, I'll join the club anyway" WTF? Homosexuality is rampant in a number of species....are they just lemmings too?

You can argue your "penises are meant for vaginas", but that argument also will prohibit you from any other type of sex (anal, oral, manual, etc), as it's not meant to be. If you want to go the "only men and women can procreate" route, then really any type of sex not intended for procreation is "wrong" includeing protected sex. Also, couples unable to conceive, are they "wrong"?

Going back to your "homosexuality trend" that got rolling sometime in the 50's , keep in mind that the same feelings were had for people of African descent at one time too, interracial marriage and breeding
We've come a long way and can look back at those embarrassing times and recognize the absurdity of that school of thought.


You know, by the feelings you have for women (or a woman), that you being with women is "right"....By that same logic, the feelings that any two people have for each other can tell them that is "right". Just because it requires a different situation for them to elicit those same feelings does not justify you or anyone else labelling it "wrong".

Not that I need to state this, but, no, I'm not gay, so I have no vested interest in changing the way people look at this.

[jasonbbflex]

As for gay couples raising a child, I think it's terrific -- provided that the child is given a safe and loving homelife. Ideally, gays should adopt a child. While the fad in NYC is for 2 women engage a sperm donor or 2 men hire a serogate, in my opinion, it's the wrong move. We gay couples are not set up physically to have a child via traditional means -- you do need an egg and sperm. So why not take care of the children that have been tossed aside. Adopt!

[einstein1905]

Very well put...if you were gay I'd let you put my balls in your mouth

As tempting as that is.....I've got a no trade clause in my contract. I'm staying on this team.....I can point you in the right direction though

[Quake]

couples unable to conceive, are they "wrong"?

This is where I started out from. The technology put together for concieving children is great when used in the "correct" way, i.e. that being in a way that is likely to provide happiness for all without the possibility of "someone getting hurt" (to simplify). Heterosexual couples who cannot concieve still are able to provide the right environment for a child to reach full maturity in. Lesbian and gay couples cannot provide this necessary environment without the child one day having to understand that they are in a unique situation. This can create all sorts of problems from confusion with regards to sexuality to having to deal with bullying and teasing from their peers. It is no good to say "we'll deal with it when the time comes" etc, it is better that there is no possibility of these problems arising in the first place!

[Quake]

As for gay couples raising a child, I think it's terrific -- provided that the child is given a safe and loving homelife. Ideally, gays should adopt a child. While the fad in NYC is for 2 women engage a sperm donor or 2 men hire a serogate, in my opinion, it's the wrong move. We gay couples are not set up physically to have a child via traditional means -- you do need an egg and sperm. So why not take care of the children that have been tossed aside. Adopt!

As a gay person can you not see that providing a safe and loving homelife is not enough for the delicate task of bringing up a child. For a child to build themselves a strong psychological base, one that they will not have to question, they need the surrounds of a normal, majority, heterosexual relationship. They need to feel that they are not different to other children from a young age. The psychological effects of growing up in such an arrangement upon a child have the potential to be disastorous.

Can you see my point?

[einstein1905]

This is where I started out from. The technology put together for concieving children is great when used in the "correct" way, i.e. that being in a way that is likely to provide happiness for all without the possibility of "someone getting hurt" (to simplify). Heterosexual couples who cannot concieve still are able to provide the right environment for a child to reach full maturity in. Lesbian and gay couples cannot provide this necessary environment without the child one day having to understand that they are in a unique situation. This can create all sorts of problems from confusion with regards to sexuality to having to deal with bullying and teasing from their peers. It is no good to say "we'll deal with it when the time comes" etc, it is better that there is no possibility of these problems arising in the first place!

I hear you, but you bring up the real harm being the teasing by others....that's a product of people not being accepting of a natural phenomenom, not of the situation itself. if homosexuality were accepted as merely a vicissitude of the norm rather than "wrong", there wouldn't be the teasing. Where then would the problem lie?

The necessity of father figure and mother figure are old school mentalities, where the man provides and protects, and the woman nurtures. that's obsolete, as current roles are overlapping with obscure definitions. Love, attention, stability, mental stimulation, guidance, etc. These things are instilled in children by parents in general, regardless of gender.

[einstein1905]

The problem lies where the child is unsure of what choice to make reguarding his/her sexuality.

Choose to go in the direction your sexual feelings lead you. That's simple. Like I said before. I can't choose to be sexually aroused by another man (except mass junkie, but that's because he's so little and cute)..
Think about it for awhile, and ask yourself if you could "choose" to be aroused by another man.....it doesn't work that way. You can "choose" to act on your natural urges, but you don't dictate what those urges are.
There is absolutely no correlation between children being raised by one or more gay parents themselves becoming homosexual. Conversely, how would you explain homosexual individuals coming from homes where homosexuality is deemed "unacceptable"?

[mass junkie]

Choose to go in the direction your sexual feelings lead you. That's simple. Like I said before. I can't choose to be sexually aroused by another man (except mass junkie, but that's because he's so little and cute)..
Think about it for awhile, and ask yourself if you could "choose" to be aroused by another man.....it doesn't work that way. You can "choose" to act on your natural urges, but you don't dictate what those urges are.
There is absolutely no correlation between children being raised by one or more gay parents themselves becoming homosexual. Conversely, how would you explain homosexual individuals coming from homes where homosexuality is deemed "unacceptable"?

.............you say the sweetest things einy

[Quake]

I hear you, but you bring up the real harm being the teasing by others....that's a product of people not being accepting of a natural phenomenom, not of the situation itself. if homosexuality were accepted as merely a vicissitude of the norm rather than "wrong", there wouldn't be the teasing. Where then would the problem lie?

The necessity of father figure and mother figure are old school mentalities, where the man provides and protects, and the woman nurtures. that's obsolete, as current roles are overlapping with obscure definitions. Love, attention, stability, mental stimulation, guidance, etc. These things are instilled in children by parents in general, regardless of gender.

Can you understand the magnitude of change that you are asking for by looking at it the way you do? Not only would it take a lot of social change, but it would also take unchangeable things too, but I'm not going to go back in to the nature thing only to say that it cannot be ignored. I did say in a previous post about people coming to understand that there are anomalies in nature, but this comes with age and experience so any child must still be a child before theyare an adult. This means acting in all the ways that children do and this, without the strictest of discipline, will never be overcome for you must remember that whilst homosexuality/lesbianism is an extreme difference in people many more subtle differences exist and can give way to all types of reactions to any given thing.

The old school mentality you talk of is only an old "stereotype" and I agree, many are outdated as research in all manner of humanities and sciences progress. What you fail to address is that it is not about what can be given to the child, but it is more about how the child percieves and deals with that which is presented to them or that which they find themselves in, and no-one can guarantee how any child will react in any given situation.

The point I make is that it is better that possibilities of problems arising from the child coping with their situation never existed in the first place, than to have to provide for after the damage is done.

[bubbathegut]

do u have any pictures

[Quake]

There is absolutely no correlation between children being raised by one or more gay parents themselves becoming homosexual. Conversely, how would you explain homosexual individuals coming from homes where homosexuality is deemed "unacceptable"?

Diablo referred to the "confusion of sexuality" that could become apparent. The important thing here is not whether the child comes out hetero or homo, but the stress that they suffer from the confusion they find themselves in.

[Quake]

do u have any pictures

What sort of pictures are you talking about?

[bubbathegut]

who gay

[Carlos_E]

This is from the American Pschological Association.

"Not a single study has found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by gay and lesbian parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth."

"Sexual Identity

Three aspects of sexual identity are considered in the research: gender identity concerns a person's self-identification as male or female; gender-role behavior concerns the extent to which a person's activities, occupations, and the like are regarded by the culture as masculine, feminine, or both; sexual orientation refers to a person's choice of sexual partners--i.e., heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual (Money & Earhardt, 1972; Stein, 1993). To examine the possibility that children in the custody of lesbian mothers or gay fathers experience disruptions of sexual identity, research relevant to each of these three major areas of concern is summarized below.

Gender identity. In studies of children ranging in age from 5 to 14, results of projective testing and related interview procedures have revealed normal development of gender identity among children of lesbian mothers (Green, 1978; Green, Mandel, Hotvedt, Gray, & Smith, 1986; Kirkpatrick, Smith, & Roy, 1981). More direct assessment techniques to assess gender identity have been used by Golombok, Spencer, and Rutter (1983) with the same result; all children in this study reported that they were happy with their gender, and that they had no wish to be a member of the opposite sex. There was no evidence in any of the studies of gender identity difficulties among children of lesbian mothers. No data have been reported in this area for children of gay fathers.

Gender-Role Behavior. A number of studies have examined gender-role behavior among the offspring of lesbian mothers (Golombok et al., 1983; Gottman, 1990; Green, 1978; Hoeffer, 1981; Kirkpatrick et al., 1981; Patterson, 1994a). These studies reported that such behavior among children of lesbian mothers fell within typical limits for conventional sex roles. For instance, Kirkpatrick and her colleagues (1981) found no differences between children of lesbian versus heterosexual mothers in toy preferences, activities, interests, or occupational choices.

Rees (1979) administered the Bem Sex Role Inventory (BSRI) to 24 adolescents, half of whom had divorced lesbian and half of whom had divorced heterosexual mothers. The BSRI yields scores on masculinity and femininity as independent factors and an androgyny score from the ratio of masculinity to femininity. Children of lesbian and heterosexual mothers did not differ on masculinity or on androgyny, but children of lesbian mothers reported greater psychological femininity than did those of heterosexual mothers. This result would seem to run counter to expectations based on stereotypes of lesbians as lacking in femininity, both in their own demeanor and in their likely influences on children.

Sex role behavior of children was also assessed by Green and his colleagues (1986). In interviews with the children, no differences between 56 children of lesbian and 48 children of heterosexual mothers were found with respect to favorite television programs, favorite television characters, or favorite games or toys. There was some indication in interviews with children themselves that the offspring of lesbian mothers had less sex-typed preferences for activities at school and in their neighborhoods than did children of heterosexual mothers. Consistent with this result, lesbian mothers were also more likely than heterosexual mothers to report that their daughters often participated in rough-and-tumble play or occasionally played with "masculine" toys such as trucks or guns; however, they reported no differences in these areas for sons. Lesbian mothers were no more or less likely than heterosexual mothers to report that their children often played with "feminine" toys such as dolls. In both family types, however, children's sex-role behavior was seen as falling within normal limits."

http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html

[Cycleon]

one thing I have a major disagreement with and that is things are not "wrong" because you are taught that they are - they are right are wrong intrensically - but those who dont believe in God dont believe this - yet when it boils down to it all, what they have is moral relativism... meaning that anything goes as long as society learns to accept it - so whats wrong with beheading? its a way of life in the middle east -or many things that once were - and anyway, If I am strong and can prey on the weak, why not?

[DADDYDBOL]

Gay and lesbian couples who want to feel like mothers/fathers should take into account that by nature this takes a man and a woman to achieve this, two women or two men cannot achieve this. This should be accepted and with this acceptance should be the acceptance that the life they have chosen holds with it responsibilities and that this should be one of them.

I was on the fence but you convinced me....its wrong....

Thats hard for me to say as I do have gay friends that I do care quite a bit for...

But like you say...when it comes to this natures law is that it does take a male and a female to reproduce....thats that....

I am in no way saying that being gay is wrong but I do believe that being gay is by choice....not genetics or peers or anything else....so I guess we'll never know if it is wrong....or well....not until we get to heaven or hell.....

[DADDYDBOL]

do u have any pictures

bro...if your ever in houston we gotta hook up and put one in the air...you make me crack up every day....

[einstein1905]

one thing I have a major disagreement with and that is things are not "wrong" because you are taught that they are - they are right are wrong intrensically - but those who dont believe in God dont believe this - yet when it boils down to it all, what they have is moral relativism... meaning that anything goes as long as society learns to accept it - so whats wrong with beheading? its a way of life in the middle east -or many things that once were - and anyway, If I am strong and can prey on the weak, why not?

This is very true, and that's why there will never be a concensus. Even those that believe in absolute morality still can appreciate moral relativism in some cases. Killing......wrong intrinsically....most everyone would agree, but there are situations in which one would bend their morality to justify killing....I don't need to write an example, as anyone can come up with a situation like this (self-defense and what not). Stealing, lying, etc....all wrong intrinsically, all cultures agree, but certain contexts allow for exceptions to these otherwise "wrong" actions.

As society and technology advances, those that turn to the Bible for their moral guidance will become less and less able to directly reference the Bible for moral guidance. As it is now, cloning, in vitro fertilization, drug use, etc are not explicitly or even really implicitly covered in the Bible. Times are approaching where one cannot even find an vague, obscure passage of scripture and argue it being relevant to modern situations. Where does one that relies on the Bible for morality turn to as modern situations arise where the Bible cannot offer moral guidance, at least directly?

I'm not going to pick apart the Bible here. I respect everyone's right to their beliefs. however, clearly the Bible is a bit dated, and the passages alluding to slavery and female subordinance are more or less ignored now, but the passages that do vaguely support ones claim are highlighted in neon at every possible opportunity.

Moral relativism allows one to use their mind (God-given, if you will), to weigh all the factors at hand in any given situation, as every situation is truly unique and distinct, and to make the appropriate decision based on all the information available.

[einstein1905]

I was on the fence but you convinced me....its wrong....

Thats hard for me to say as I do have gay friends that I do care quite a bit for...

But like you say...when it comes to this natures law is that it does take a male and a female to reproduce....thats that....

I am in no way saying that being gay is wrong but I do believe that being gay is by choice....not genetics or peers or anything else....so I guess we'll never know if it is wrong....or well....not until we get to heaven or hell.....

Again I say, how do you choose to be aroused by another man?

[DADDYDBOL]

Again I say, how do you choose to be aroused by another man?

you had said in one of your posts that we know as children the few other children that would possibly be gay....I agree but only that we knew they 'stuck out' or just didn't fit in with the others....I don't think they were gay I think that their social interactions caused this pattern of 'unusual' behavior....I don't know...jmo...

[Cycleon]

Again I say, how do you choose to be aroused by another man?

but the real question is, does simply being aroused mean that he is gay? no, the way you know he is a homosexual is because he has sex with someone of his own gender - it is a choice of sexual act - when I was younger, I would get wood sitting at church and now when I am on test, I have iron just resting on my pillow - does that mean I was having a perversly irreligious relationship with the pastor and his preaching or that I seek a monogomous relationship with flame retardant objects? no, I think not - moreover, if I am tempted to steal something and yet do not, am I a thief? again, no -

it is the act of my will that decides my character, not the impulse of my emotion - perhaps you believe that indeed we are nothing but animals and therefore whatever ass we sniff suffices for the purpose, but since I do believe that we are made in the image of God and that freewill is the ultimate determinate of our destiny, I must disagree

And the bible is as relevant to me today as it was when the letters were written - you mistakenly forget that our constitution and indeed the very creed of freedom that our country now enjoys sprang from its principles - indeed, while circumstances and technology has changed, people have not - a thief is still a thief, a murderer still a murderer