bush or kerry??poll

**Z-Ro** · 08-31-2004, 07:49 PM

Kerry

**Phillyboy1** · 08-31-2004, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by UrbanLegend

He is a very successful business man, so he may very well do a good job running a McDonalds

name a business that has not had a downward spiral when he was at the top of the chain. honestly, do a goggle search and find me a business he has run that has been successful

**UrbanLegend** · 08-31-2004, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

i know people that got threw high school and into college for alot less money then the bush's have. im sure his dad's money gave him some help in school. either that or he just plain cheated on most of the work or had someone do it for him. honestly can you say he's a smart man?.

Because you are just guessing hes not for whatever reason, all I see is that he graduated from Harvard and Yale, made a crap load of money running the Rangers for 9 years, etc.....hes not a good speaker, and the media torments him to no end on that. But trust me, when it comes time for a debate, he will be very polished.

Originally Posted by jcstomper

actually he has proposed alot of tax cuts, to bad non of them help the common man. they help me, i own two business's but i still dont like him.

Well, they help my parents who make less than 200k a year, if that counts for anything......The tax system in the US is fundamentally flawed, but Bush didn't make it that way. His tax cuts help everyone who isn't living on welfare....even you admit they help you.

angelexterminator: Fair enough, at least you will look at both sides.

**Phillyboy1** · 08-31-2004, 07:53 PM

also if people are gonna post links, dont make the link be a total republican or democratic site. i am sooo sick and tired of people posting a site to bash bush or kerry from a web site that is established just to be the opposite of what ever it is bashing. i have a uncle that sends me links to support bush, but they are all super religious websites, or republican run sites. im sure people do the same to support kerry. how on god's earth do you think that reading that isnt going to be biased? so lets get some unbiased links, something that isnt based in america is a good start

**UrbanLegend** · 08-31-2004, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

name a business that has not had a downward spiral when he was at the top of the chain. honestly, do a goggle search and find me a business he has run that has been successful

Texas Rangers for one.

He wasn't very successful in the oil business, sure, but he didn't run it into the ground, he just sold it and moved onto something else. Even Donald Trump has had things backfire, he was even banckrupt at one point. Bush never was quite that bad.

**mfenske** · 08-31-2004, 07:56 PM

I saw a piece with Chris Matthews over the weekend on Bill Maher's Real Time of all places. Matthews summed up the election by the following, which I am sure I'll mess up but you'll get the idea: This election isn't just about the next 4 years, it's about the direction we are gonna head for the next 10 to 20 years. If you want a president who is going to be cautious with us going to war and thinks that going it alone in the world might not be the best idea. If you don't want people dying of the same diseases in 20 years as they are today vote Kerry. If you don't agree with that vote Bush. I thought he offered an interesting perspective. Mark

**Phillyboy1** · 08-31-2004, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by UrbanLegend

Texas Rangers for one.

He wasn't very successful in the oil business, sure, but he didn't run it into the ground, he just sold it.

read about the rangers why dont ya

(Washington, Jan. 18) When George W. Bush first embarked on a deal to buy the Texas Rangers professional baseball team in 1988, he already had his eye on the governor's mansion in Austin. But he knew that to have a shot at winning, he would need better credentials than a string of unsuccessful oil companies and a failed bid for a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives. In 1989 he told Time magazine, "My biggest liability in Texas is the question, 'What's the boy ever done?' He could be riding on Daddy's name."

But his father's connections were instrumental in helping Bush overcome that perception. Back in 1973, when the senior George Bush was the chairman of the Republican National Committee, Bush befriended one of father's assistants, Karl Rove. Rove cut his teeth alongside the senior Bush's chief political strategist, Lee Atwater. Rove would become George W.'s own Atwater, helping to run his 1978 bid for Congress and laying the groundwork for his 1994 run for governor. As the Rangers deal got under way, Rove told Bush that baseball was his ticket to the big time. ìIt gives him . . . exposure and gives him something that will be easily recalled by people," Rove said.

Rove's calculation turned out to be right on the money.

It all began in fall of 1988, when William O. DeWitt Jr., Bush's partner in a Texas oil-and-gas exploration company called Spectrum 7, called to let him know that Eddie Chiles, the owner of the Texas Rangers, was looking for a buyer.

Ueberroth Presses for Deal

Chiles, a family friend who called Bush "Young Pup" when he was a kid, was eager to sell to Bush. And so Bush and DeWitt quickly assembled a team of investors . They hit a snag when Peter Ueberroth, then commissioner of Major League Baseball, told them he wouldn't approve the sale without more investors from Texas. Ueberroth believed that local owners would be less likely to relocate the team. The commissioner, a GOP donor himself, wanted the deal approved before his term expired at the end of 1989, and so he and then-American League president Bobby Brown took it on themselves to line up Fort Worth financier Richard E. Rainwater.

Rainwater and Bush weren't exactly strangers. Rainwater was a contributor to his father's presidential campaigns and, later, an overnight guest in the Bush White House. Until 1986, he was the chief money manager for the Bass brothers, Fort Worth billionaires who financed drilling in Bahrain by the Harken Energy Corp., a company that in 1986 had bought out Spectrum 7, one of Bush's oil companies.

By 1988, Rainwater was managing his own fortune. He agreed to put money in the Rangers, but only if his trusted associate, Edward "Rusty" Rose, was installed as general managing partner along with Bush.

With this arrangement in place, Bush and his partners bought the team from Chiles on April 21, 1989, for $86 million. To scrape together his $500,000 stake in the Rangers, Bush borrowed the money from a bank in Midland where he once was a director. He owned 1.8 percent of the Rangers. (He later invested an additional $106,302).

Bush made up for his minor stake by taking more than his share of credit for bringing the owners together. "I wasn't going to let this deal fail," he said last year. "I wanted to put together the group. I was tenacious."

Others close to the deal paint a different picture.

"George W. Bush deserves great credit for the development of the franchise," Ueberroth said. "However, the bringing together of the buying group was the result of Richard Rainwater, Rusty Rose, Dr. Bobby Brown, and the commissioner."

Bush Gets Another 10 Percent

Nonetheless, Bush's partners rewarded him by upping his ownership stake in the Rangers, giving him another 10 percent of the team.

"He had a well-known name, and that created interest in the franchise," Tom Schieffer, the Rangers' former president, said last year. ìIt gave us a little celebrity."

Usually parked in a front-row seat by the dugout, with his feet up and a bag of peanuts perched in his lap, Bush put a congenial face on a crooked deal, at the heart of which lay a complicated land play.

When they bought the team, the Rangers were playing in an old minor-league stadium. It didn't have the fancy sky boxes and other amenities that helped make other franchises much more profitable. As a result, the team couldn't compete with other big-city teams for good players. But the new owners weren't willing to finance the construction of a new ballpark. They decided to hit up taxpayers for the money.

First, the new owners threatened to move the team out of Arlington, Texas, sending local officials scurrying to put together a deal they couldn't refuse. Under the resulting agreement, the taxpayers of Arlington would raise $135 million, the bulk of the cost of construction, through a hike in sales taxes. During a campaign to sell the sales tax increase to Arlington voters, then-mayor Richard Greene said the team owners would put $50 million of their own money into the deal up front. It didn't quite work out that way; the owners raised a hefty portion of their down payment from fans, through a one dollar surcharge on tickets.

Sales Tax Hike Approved

The city spent $150,000 on an advertising campaign to persuade voters. Opponents of the deal couldn't compete with glossy brochures, telemarketing calls, and a "Hands Around Arlington Day." On Jan. 19, 1991, citizens of Arlington voted two-to-one to approve a sales-tax increase dedicated to building the new park.

Between the sales-tax revenue, state tax exemptions and other financial incentives, Texas taxpayers handed the privately owned Rangers more than $200 million in public subsidies. Taxpayers didn't get a return from the stadium's surging new revenues, either. The profits went almost exclusively to the team's already wealthy owners.

The stadium's lease is a case in point. Unlike an apartment tenant, the rent that the team's owners pay is applied toward purchasing the stadium. The maximum yearly rent and maintenence fees for the Rangers are $5 million; the total purchase price for the Ballpark at Arlington is $60 million. Thus, after 12 years the owners will have bought the stadium for less than half of what taxpayers spent on it.

But Bush and his partners weren't satisfied lining their pockets with average Texans' hard-earned cash. They wanted land around the stadium to further boost its value. To that end, they orchestrated a land grab that shortchanged local landowners by several million dollars.

As part of the deal, the city created a separate corporation, the Arlington Sports Facilities Development Authority, to manage construction. Using authority granted to it by the city, the ASFDA seized several tracts of land around the stadium site for parking and future development.

Puppet for Bush, Partners

While on paper the Arlington Sports Facilities Development Authority was a public entity, in practice it was merely a puppet for Bush and his partners. According to documents obtained by the Center for Public Integrity, the owners would identify the land they wanted to acquire. A Rangers owner, Mike Reilly, a Realtor, would then offer to buy the parcels for prices he set, which in several cases were well below what the owners believed their property was worth. If the landowners refused to sell to the Rangers at the offered price, the Arlington Sports Facilities Development Authority could take possession of their land and leave the price to be determined in court.

Several of the landowners took the authority to court over the seizures and won settlements totaling $11 million. In a final insult to taxpayers, the Rangers resisted paying the settlements, trying to pass off yet another cost to Arlington residents. (The Rangers, under new ownership, finally agreed to pay up last year.)

When confronted with the seamy details of the land grab, Bush professed ignorance. But Schieffer, the team's former president, has testified that he kept Bush aware of the land transfers. In October 1990, Bush also let this slip to a reporter for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram: "The idea of making a land play, absolutely, to plunk the field down in the middle of a big piece of land, that's kind of always been the strategy."

It was a strategy that would have an enormous payoff for Bush personally.

After he became governor of Texas, Bush put his all of his assets into a blind trust, with one notable exception: his stake in the Rangers. Schieffer kept Bush apprised of the owner's efforts to sell the team to Thomas O. Hicks, the chairman of Hicks, Muse, Tate and Furst, Inc., a firm that specializes in leveraged buyouts and until recently owned AMFM, Inc., the nation's largest chain of radio stations. Hicks and employees of his companies are Bush's No. 4 career patron, having given him at least $290,400.

25-Fold Return on Investment

In 1998, Hicks helped provide Bush with an even greater windfall. He bought the Texas Rangers for $250 million, three times what Bush and his partners had paid 10 years earlier. The new stadium and the real estate around it greatly boosted the final sale price. And, since his partners had upped Bush's stake in the team from 1.8 to 11.8 percent, his cut from the proceeds of the sale was $14.9 million, a 25-fold return on his investment of $606,302. Rainwater, who had put far more money into the team than Bush, made $25 million.

Just as important as the cash, however, was the cachet that came with the deal's success. The Ballpark at Arlington finally opened in April 1994, just as Bush was running for governor. He touted the new stadium as a win-win proposition for taxpayers and the team. "Am I going to benefit off it financially?" he asked reporters. He answered his own question: "I hope so." Four years later, everyone would know by how much.

**Jdawg50** · 08-31-2004, 08:02 PM

Whatching ARNOLD right now.... after this speech... rudy's speech, McCains speech, and Cheneys speech.... Its over guys... watching Kerry on the swift boat commercials is just killing me... comparing the Vietnam vets to Gengis Kahn.. killing inocents... I would suggest any of you to look up on CSPAN when they will re-air Kerry's speech to congress in the 60's.... you will change your mind for the better...

This is like winning an Oscar! ...As if I would know! Speaking of acting, one of my movies was called "True Lies." It's what the Democrats should have called their convention.

finally arrived here in 1968. I had empty pockets, but I was full of dreams. The presidential campaign was in full swing. I remember watching the Nixon and Humphrey presidential race on TV. A friend who spoke German and English, translated for me. I heard Humphrey saying things that sounded like socialism, which is what I had just left. But then I heard Nixon speak. He was talking about free enterprise, getting government off your back, lowering taxes and strengthening the military. Listening to Nixon speak sounded more like a breath of fresh air.

I said to my friend, "What party is he?" My friend said, "He's a Republican." I said, "Then I am a Republican!" And I've been a Republican ever since! And trust me, in my wife's family, that's no small achievement! I'm proud to belong to the party of Abraham Lincoln, the party of Teddy Roosevelt, the party of Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) and the party of George W. Bush.

My fellow immigrants, my fellow Americans, how do you know if you are a Republican? I'll tell you how.

If you believe that government should be accountable to the people, not the people to the government...then you are a Republican! If you believe a person should be treated as an individual, not as a member of an interest group... then you are a Republican! If you believe your family knows how to spend your money better than the government does... then you are a Republican! If you believe our educational system should be held accountable for the progress of our children ... then you are a Republican! If you believe this country, not the United Nations (news - web sites), is the best hope of democracy in the world ... then you are a Republican! And, ladies and gentlemen ...if you believe we must be fierce and relentless and terminate terrorism ... then you are a Republican!

**Phillyboy1** · 08-31-2004, 08:04 PM

some more stuff on spectrum 7

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...bush073099.htm

**Jdawg50** · 08-31-2004, 08:07 PM

Look how hot Barbara is too.... mmmmmm yummy

**angelxterminator** · 08-31-2004, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jdawg50

Look how hot Barbara is too.... mmmmmm yummy

ooh **** straight. Hot meat injection all the way!

**UrbanLegend** · 08-31-2004, 08:10 PM

I have read about the Rangers, I understand he had help with the operation. Who doesn't have help getting their job, getting their business connections, etc? He didn't run it into the ground is my point. He made millions off it is.

I hope you consider PBS a non biased source:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...sh/grieve.html

**Phillyboy1** · 08-31-2004, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by UrbanLegend

I have read about the Rangers, I understand he had help with the operation. Who doesn't have help getting their job, getting their business connections, etc? He didn't run it into the ground is my point. He made millions off it is.

I hope you consider PBS a non biased source:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...sh/grieve.html

i dont conisider PBS biased but check a little deeper into them and the partners they have:http://www.pbs.org/aboutpbs/aboutpbs_partners.html

http://www.npr.org/topics/topic.php?topicId=12

everything in the link is pro bush, makes me think a little

and another of the parnters.. partners:
http://www.pri.org/PublicSite/foundation/index.html

**juicehoe** · 08-31-2004, 08:24 PM

just for the record... who ever was talking about bush and taxes... the president doesnt have the power to change taxes.

**UrbanLegend** · 08-31-2004, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

i dont conisider PBS biased but check a little deeper into them and the partners they have:http://www.pbs.org/aboutpbs/aboutpbs_partners.html

http://www.npr.org/topics/topic.php?topicId=12

everything in the link is pro bush, makes me think a little

and another of the parnters.. partners:
http://www.pri.org/PublicSite/foundation/index.html

Yes, but look at how old the article is that I posted. Are you sure they had these partners back then?

And even if it does give PBS a lean to the right on this article, it doesn't mean the man who said those things is lying. But I don't think PBS is biased, just so you know.....ask Tock. He was bringing up PBS in another thread, and you know where he stands on things.

Juicehoe: He has the power to PROPOSE a change in tax laws

**Elliot** · 08-31-2004, 10:52 PM

Hey it might not be a vote for kerry but a vote against rumsfeld..

**PrairieDawg** · 08-31-2004, 11:55 PM

I cant believe so many of you guys want bush back. He's just going to wage war on the other half of the world.

**Jeremy34** · 09-01-2004, 12:53 AM

bush, but god **** this forum gets more attention than the political forum....i started the vote a long time ago over there and have less votes....sad....noone is interested in politics

**Animal Cracker** · 09-01-2004, 12:56 AM

Like a real American- GWB

***50%Natural*** · 09-01-2004, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

the funny thing is that people in texas that back bush do so under no other reason then that he is from texas also. its almost frat/football player mentality like when your in HS. pathetic

what in the **** are you talking about? I know lots of people here in texas that don't like Bush...If you tend to vote conservative and believe in conservative based economic policy then you would be a Bush supporter. Wouldn't that be a more logical approach to your nit wit statement? btw, i'm in a fraternity

**Tock** · 09-01-2004, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

the funny thing is that people in texas that back bush do so under no other reason then that he is from texas also. its almost frat/football player mentality like when your in HS. pathetic

Ya, thanks to him, we've got a public school funding scheme that nobody likes, particularly the republicans in the rich parts of the state. We've had a legislative special session (that went nowhere) over it, and some school districts are going bankrupt, and a bunch of other school districts are sueing the state government saying Bush's plan is unconstitutional.

Also, his Education Secretary (a cabinet post) is a ditz. He was Houston School Superintendant when in 2000, and Bush held him up as a shining example of how a Republican approach to education could improve student performance, then Bush appointed that guy Secretary of Education.
A year passed, and people started to question the statistics and did some double checking. It turns out the reason the numbers improved so much was because the school administrators flat out lied. Ya, the School Superintendant told the local school administrators that if they didn't fix things, then they'd lose their jobs. So, they fudged the numbers. And this, ladies and gentlemen, was the basis for George W Bush's claim for what he called the "Houston Miracle" in education, and was the basis for appointing the Houston Superintendant of Schools to Education Secretary.
Pretty screwed up.
-Tock

**Tock** · 09-01-2004, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by PurePower

Bush all the way baby.....Anyone who likes Kerry can lick my salty balls, that goes for every Democrat too.

Does that include me?
-Tock

**Budlite74** · 09-01-2004, 02:06 AM

Bush

**Phillyboy1** · 09-01-2004, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by 50%Natural

what in the **** are you talking about? I know lots of people here in texas that don't like Bush...If you tend to vote conservative and believe in conservative based economic policy then you would be a Bush supporter. Wouldn't that be a more logical approach to your nit wit statement? btw, i'm in a fraternity

im conservative on a alot of issues including family but i still look at both sides of a story even if i dont like the topic. bush it a hard headed spoild kid that always wants his way even if its the wrong way. and it is that reason there that he has made the world hate our country. i also very much hate his view on religion, sure he can have what ever view he wants, but keep it out of the government, they are seperate for a reason. he is turning this war into a crusade for the religious right, and thats the last thing we want happening. no wonder every muslim hates up, if i was muslim i had us too. i dont belive in organized religion but was brought up baptist, i still have alot of them views, but i understand you can just belive in god and not the idiot at the alter scarring you into beliving other certian things. bush wants his religious beliefs to be our constitution. which is the last thing this country needs, we are a melting pot for a reason

the fact that your in a frat proves my point

**saboudian** · 09-01-2004, 03:03 PM

I would love to hear what issues bush has done 'great' on or handled well. Anyone can be decisive, but to also make the right decision is also worth aknowledging.

**brian11** · 09-01-2004, 03:09 PM

how about neither???

**Casanova33** · 09-01-2004, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by 50%Natural

what in the **** are you talking about? I know lots of people here in texas that don't like Bush...If you tend to vote conservative and believe in conservative based economic policy then you would be a Bush supporter. Wouldn't that be a more logical approach to your nit wit statement? btw, i'm in a fraternity

isn't a conservative economic policy one where the gov't decreases spending, and we lower our deficit. if u didn't know BUSH ISNT DOING THIs so called conservative economic policy. so what does that make him a liberal . but socially he is a bible thumping conservative which shouldn't be brought into our govermental processes.

and who ever mentioned how crappy oklahoma is forgets that the 6 flags over texas are all OU flags. and houston is now the smog capital of the world i believe thanks to bush.

**juicehoe** · 09-01-2004, 04:37 PM

U said it propose... doesnt mean it will happen.

Originally Posted by UrbanLegend

Juicehoe: He has the power to PROPOSE a change in tax laws

**UrbanLegend** · 09-01-2004, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by juicehoe

U said it propose... doesnt mean it will happen.

But it did, now didn't it?

**Butch** · 09-01-2004, 04:56 PM

Bush all the way....if Kerry were elected I would never have any children....that f*cker will do more damage in four years than Clinton did in 8....

**PurePower** · 09-01-2004, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Tock

Does that include me?
-Tock

I dont know you tell me.

**Tock** · 09-01-2004, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by PurePower

Bush all the way baby.....Anyone who likes Kerry can lick my salty balls, that goes for every Democrat too. .

Originally Posted by Tock

Does that include me?
-Tock

Originally Posted by PurePower

I dont know you tell me.

Well then . . . I suppose that means that it does . . .
Are you looking forward to the event?
-Tock

**Phillyboy1** · 09-01-2004, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Butch

Bush all the way....if Kerry were elected I would never have any children....that f*cker will do more damage in four years than Clinton did in 8....

i dont mean to offend you in anyway, so dont take it that way. but do you drive a truck? own a confederate flag? live in texas? watch nascar? and where a cowboy hat? and own a gun? im just wondering.

if you answer yes to 5 out of 6 of them id say your exactly the type of person that would be wanting bush to be in office

**SportsMedVIP** · 09-01-2004, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by houseofpain

all the bush haters are brainwashed by our commie l!beral media, what the ears hear the mind believes, this sickens me.

Ah yes, the commie liberal media that's nearly 100% owned by white republican men. Yeah, sure. Maybe they actually crame it down your throat that the media is liberal so you can repeat it to everyone else and believe it without question. Bush is a puppet and I choose to vote against him because I hate the people pulling the strings. If you don't think he's a corrupt f*ck then you aren't bothering to look in to things. If you know even half of what he's let us find out then you realize he's a piece of sh*t. And think about what we don't know.

**SportsMedVIP** · 09-01-2004, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Butch

Bush all the way....if Kerry were elected I would never have any children....that f*cker will do more damage in four years than Clinton did in 8....

You do realize Clinton had our deficit at an all time low, which Bush quickly brought up to an record high in under 3 years. Bush has f*cked up a lot of good that CLinton did. Do you just not like him cause he got his wee wee sucked? Because that's about all he did wrong compared to any other president.

**juicehoe** · 09-01-2004, 06:35 PM

touché

Originally Posted by UrbanLegend

But it did, now didn't it?

**Phillyboy1** · 09-01-2004, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by ECoastVIP

You do realize Clinton had our deficit at an all time low, which Bush quickly brought up to an record high in under 3 years. Bush has f*cked up a lot of good that CLinton did. Do you just not like him cause he got his wee wee sucked? Because that's about all he did wrong compared to any other president.

amen, people didnt like clinton for some BS, honestly he coudl cheat on his wife all he wants. as long as he does his job good. people dont like him cause he did a great job but wasnt a republican.

labels are soo stupid, im happy im not a democrate or republican. ill vote for who ever is the good guy to have in office. not cause im on his team like so many of the football players in the world.

**SportsMedVIP** · 09-01-2004, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by SV-1

Kerry.

I knew you were a wise man.

**SportsMedVIP** · 09-01-2004, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

amen, people didnt like clinton for some BS, honestly he coudl cheat on his wife all he wants. as long as he does his job good. people dont like him cause he did a great job but wasnt a republican.

labels are soo stupid, im happy im not a democrate or republican. ill vote for who ever is the good guy to have in office. not cause im on his team like so many of the football players in the world.

You're talking to another independent here as well. Atleast that's what I assume you are registered as.

**SportsMedVIP** · 09-01-2004, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by saboudian

I would love to hear what issues bush has done 'great' on or handled well. Anyone can be decisive, but to also make the right decision is also worth aknowledging.

I find making the right decision to be far more important. What good is a resolute guy with the wrong resolution? No good at all in fact.