Question for people in the know how about standard issue military sidearms.

**symatech** · 01-29-2005, 10:47 PM

All I really want to know is why the M1911(A1) was replaced with the 9mm beretta?

**Be Real** · 01-29-2005, 11:02 PM

better accuracy and stopping power, the M1911 is still used by the greek army. I think you can use anything you want in the military? My friend used his .38 zig

**symatech** · 01-29-2005, 11:25 PM

Interesting. But I do not believe that a 9mm has more stopping power than the .45 accuracy perhaps...but not stopping power.

**Duck of Death** · 01-30-2005, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Be Real

better accuracy and stopping power, the M1911 is still used by the greek army. I think you can use anything you want in the military? My friend used his .38 zig

..Oh, Brother. No offense, but this is absolutely not the reason the switch took place. the M1911 served admirably since its inception, but of course the armed services "higher-ups" figured they needed to make a change to conform to the rest of the world's armies using 9mm sidearms. Tests were done to determine the most suitable 9mm handgun, which the Beretta 92F won. I really don't know why - the 92F is heavy and has a lot of moving parts and must be kept scrupulously clean in order to function.
If you have studied ballistics at all, you would know that the gelatin destruction wreaked by a .45 round is much more impressive than the 9mm. That being said, the myth of the "one-shot stop" still persists. I have reviewed many forensic reports of LE and FBI shootouts where bad guys took multiple hits from 9mm, .45, .40 S&W, .357 mag, .44 mag, and continued to be unimpressed.
Moral of the story - if a bad guy needs shooting, he will usually benefit by shooting him a bunch of times!! I was taught the "zipper" technique - aim initially at the abdomen between the groin and the belly button and continue to fire. The handgun will tend to climb and subsequent hits will traverse the center mass and progress into the old pumpkin. Fire until the threat is definitely neutralized - reload and scan 360 degrees for other threats.

**decadbal** · 01-30-2005, 01:43 PM

someone is obsessed with soldier of fortune.hahaha.. usually ppl can make legal mods to their weapsons on issued weapons, i never saw anyone who used whatever they owned.. you can take it to the range and fire on days off, but you cant just take it with you on patrol and so on. thats the movies... not real life

**symatech** · 01-30-2005, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Duck of Death

..Oh, Brother. No offense, but this is absolutely not the reason the switch took place. the M1911 served admirably since its inception, but of course the armed services "higher-ups" figured they needed to make a change to conform to the rest of the world's armies using 9mm sidearms.

see I can't understand that. Why did the US feel they had to conform to other countries standards? I have heard more bad things about the 9mm berettas than good.

Thanks for clearing it up though, i appreciate the input.

**craneboy** · 01-30-2005, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Be Real

better accuracy and stopping power, the M1911 is still used by the greek army. I think you can use anything you want in the military? My friend used his .38 zig

are you kidding me?!!! no hand gun round has more knock down power than the 45acp. they switched to be more "nato", bad move. and what fly by night military lets you use whatever you want?

**symatech** · 01-30-2005, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by craneboy

are you kidding me?!!! no hand gun round has more knock down power than the 45acp.

DE .50

**craneboy** · 01-30-2005, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by symatech

DE .50

there are more powerful rounds but the slow speed (850 fps) of the 45 acp gives it the most " knock down " power. ask any law enforcement officer. i didnt say it was most powerful, just most knock down, period

**symatech** · 01-30-2005, 03:55 PM

I see what your sayin

**decadbal** · 01-30-2005, 04:37 PM

hnk usp .45..best handgun in the world..

**odrorir** · 01-30-2005, 05:02 PM

The 1911 doesn't hold enough rounds.

**symatech** · 01-30-2005, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Decadbal

hnk usp .45..best handgun in the world..

how much do they run? like 700-1000?

**odrorir** · 01-30-2005, 05:07 PM

900-1200$ a few years ago, I am out of the know on guns.
I like the staple gun by HK; p90 I think is the name, .40cal, awesome weapon.

Originally Posted by symatech

how much do they run? like 700-1000?

**cjp85** · 01-30-2005, 05:43 PM

Considering many of the M1911A1's in service were parts guns and WWII guns, the military wanted a switch. The other thing that they wanted was a pistol that had second-strike capability for the hard primers of many of the foreign 9MM Nato rounds. So they chose the Berreta 92 as the M9 and the Sig 228 as the M11. Personally, since hollowpoints are frowned upon for use in warfare especially by those who signed the Hague Accord, I would much rather have a .45 ACP if we were limited to hard ball ammo.

**groverman1** · 01-30-2005, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Decadbal

hnk usp .45..best handgun in the world..

Your daaaamn right I myself have a Mark 23

**Animal Cracker** · 01-31-2005, 04:51 AM

Age..new contracts...Colt's sub-conracts became shady...the desire to standardize things with NATO (9mm)..need for a hi-cap magazine...many reasons, many good reasons, but I still think it was a bad trade. Now we are going away from the 92 and moving toward the Sig Saur..much better weapon.

**hung-solo** · 01-31-2005, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Animal Cracker

Age..new contracts...Colt's sub-conracts became shady...the desire to standardize things with NATO (9mm)..need for a hi-cap magazine...many reasons, many good reasons, but I still think it was a bad trade. Now we are going away from the 92 and moving toward the Sig Saur..much better weapon.

by far!

**angelxterminator** · 01-31-2005, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Decadbal

hnk usp .45..best handgun in the world..

I own one, and yes they are nice guns. BUt they are too expensive to be standard military issue. Many officers do carry them as a sidearm, but they are generally reserved for the elite, while berettas (being much cheaper) are issued abroad.

The beretta is not a wonderful gun, but its ammo capacity, accuracy, and trajectory are better suited for combat conditions. 15 rounds in a close combat situation gives you higher probability of elminating a threat than 10 rounds of .45 acp. I would rather have the increased mag capacity as well!

And to whoever said it above, the .45acp does perform, but it is NOT the ultimate "bad-guy stopper" you claim it is. There are many calibers that outperform it as far as stopping power goes. We also put the issue here of tactical vests. What if your target was wearing body armor?