synthetic car oils

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by OGPackin

I use Mobil 1 in my s2000

OG

Hey, me too.

Mine is the one in my avitar. Well, it is the same color.

Synthetic oils are only necessary in high performance cars or trucks. If you are looking for an oil for a simple daily driver economy car or a truck that sees no off-road time, dino oil is fine. I would actually prefer dino oil for a normal vehicle since it is WAY cheaper and does just as good under normal driving.

But cars such as the S2000 regularly see peak rpm and sustained peak rpm. The S2000 peaks at 9200rpm. The average 4cyl only peaks at about 6500 to 7000rpm, 6 and 8cyl engines average aroun 4500 to 6000rpm.

But when my baby is screaming at 9grand, she needs an oil that will hold it's ground.

***Billy_Bathgate*** · 02-01-2005, 02:04 PM

are they a candian company or something?

i havent heard them recommended since i was a kid

**Blown_SC** · 02-01-2005, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate

are they a candian company or something?

i havent heard them recommended since i was a kid

They hit close to home if you catch my drift.....

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 02:15 PM

I just read through this thread and there are a lot of old wives tales being thrown around.

1) It does not matter whether you switch from regular to synthetic, and vice versa. It will do absolutely no harm and will not cause leaks. A 30 weight oil has the same viscosity whether it is regular or synthetic. Now,....changing weights can possibly cause leaks in an older vehicle.

2) You do not have to "break in" an engine with regular oil. Many performance cars are now shipped with synthetic (as stated previous posts)

3) The only difference between regular and synthetic oils are their resistance to a viscosity lowering under high heat and time. The oil loses its viscosity over time because of shear forces that the oil is subjected to. Synthetic oil simply has a more consistant molecular structure than oil that has been produced by nature.

Hope this cleared some stuff up for you.

**Blown_SC** · 02-01-2005, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

I just read through this thread and there are a lot of old wives tales being thrown around.

2) You do not have to "break in" an engine with regular oil. Many performance cars are now shipped with synthetic (as stated previous posts)

Hope this cleared some stuff up for you.

When it is a rebuilt engine...(being older technology)... you need to...

Also, I stated earlier in the thread that the new tech. (the cars I listed) was different all together.... but the vehicle in question was an older Cherokee..

**hung-solo** · 02-01-2005, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

I just read through this thread and there are a lot of old wives tales being thrown around.

1) It does not matter whether you switch from regular to synthetic, and vice versa. It will do absolutely no harm and will not cause leaks. A 30 weight oil has the same viscosity whether it is regular or synthetic. Now,....changing weights can possibly cause leaks in an older vehicle.

2) You do not have to "break in" an engine with regular oil. Many performance cars are now shipped with synthetic (as stated previous posts)

3) The only difference between regular and synthetic oils are their resistance to a viscosity lowering under high heat and time. The oil loses its viscosity over time because of shear forces that the oil is subjected to. Synthetic oil simply has a more consistant molecular structure than oil that has been produced by nature.

Hope this cleared some stuff up for you.

ok so how about it meet in the middle and go with a blend like valvoline blend hahahahaha that was a joke guys

***Billy_Bathgate*** · 02-01-2005, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

I just read through this thread and there are a lot of old wives tales being thrown around.

1) It does not matter whether you switch from regular to synthetic, and vice versa. It will do absolutely no harm and will not cause leaks. A 30 weight oil has the same viscosity whether it is regular or synthetic. Now,....changing weights can possibly cause leaks in an older vehicle.

2) You do not have to "break in" an engine with regular oil. Many performance cars are now shipped with synthetic (as stated previous posts)

3) The only difference between regular and synthetic oils are their resistance to a viscosity lowering under high heat and time. The oil loses its viscosity over time because of shear forces that the oil is subjected to. Synthetic oil simply has a more consistant molecular structure than oil that has been produced by nature.

Hope this cleared some stuff up for you.

1) wrong, its happened to be, ive seen it many times. syn on high mileage engines that previously had ran dino can start leaking
2) wrong, most require. personally, i bought a crate engine about 2 yrs ago. guess what it said on it....do not use syn for the first 10,000 miles

**hung-solo** · 02-01-2005, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate

1) wrong, its happened to be, ive seen it many times. syn on high mileage engines that previously had ran dino can start leaking
2) wrong, most require. personally, i bought a crate engine about 2 yrs ago. guess what it said on it....do not use syn for the first 10,000 miles

thats what my mech said. use as long as you dont use it to break in a vehicle. the rings have to seat in. its the first 15-25k miles of any car!

**Blown_SC** · 02-01-2005, 02:32 PM

I said that previously........ thanks for backing that part up Billygoat........

**hung-solo** · 02-01-2005, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate

1) wrong, its happened to be, ive seen it many times. syn on high mileage engines that previously had ran dino can start leaking
2) wrong, most require. personally, i bought a crate engine about 2 yrs ago. guess what it said on it....do not use syn for the first 10,000 miles

so if you had a cherokee at 60k miles do some offroading nothing spectacular, do use 4 wheel drive but i do drive the pissout of it. long way to work and home.

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 02:34 PM

There are groups that say synthetic is fine for break in, and there are groups that speak against it.

Pick your poison.

I think it is fine with high performance engines seeing that their engines are built to much tighter tollerances.

For a Jeep, dino is the way to go.

**Blown_SC** · 02-01-2005, 02:36 PM

Synth is OK for break in, if the car was designed for it........

Even newer Camry's still recommend using Dino for break-in periods.... check the manual even...

The cars I listed above are fine to run synth..... the others... I disagree on.....

**hung-solo** · 02-01-2005, 02:36 PM

ok on that note should i start using the "high mileage" oils at 75k and up? or should i just stick with what i got. also do you guys ever flush the motor?

***Billy_Bathgate*** · 02-01-2005, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

There are groups that say synthetic is fine for break in, and there are groups that speak against it.

Pick your poison.

I think it is fine with high performance engines seeing that their engines are built to much tighter tollerances.

For a Jeep, dino is the way to go.

i have 2000 xj

the fsm recomends synthetic after the intial 10,000 miles

***Billy_Bathgate*** · 02-01-2005, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by hung-solo

so if you had a cherokee at 60k miles do some offroading nothing spectacular, do use 4 wheel drive but i do drive the pissout of it. long way to work and home.

ive had two cherokees. both i have ran syn in the engine, transfer case, and front and rear diffs

i ran about 400 highway miles a week on it, and lots of offroad, not pussy crap, disco swaybar real stuff.

the first i switched to syn at 55k

the second came with it already in at 30k

**Sta11ion** · 02-01-2005, 02:49 PM

It does cause leaks reason being syn has more detergents in the oil, so when you use the syn after using petroleum based oils for over 30000 miles. It will actually clean the oil pan gaskets and such and take away the dirts that were preventing the oil from coming out.

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

I just read through this thread and there are a lot of old wives tales being thrown around.

1) It does not matter whether you switch from regular to synthetic, and vice versa. It will do absolutely no harm and will not cause leaks. A 30 weight oil has the same viscosity whether it is regular or synthetic. Now,....changing weights can possibly cause leaks in an older vehicle.

2) You do not have to "break in" an engine with regular oil. Many performance cars are now shipped with synthetic (as stated previous posts)

3) The only difference between regular and synthetic oils are their resistance to a viscosity lowering under high heat and time. The oil loses its viscosity over time because of shear forces that the oil is subjected to. Synthetic oil simply has a more consistant molecular structure than oil that has been produced by nature.

Hope this cleared some stuff up for you.

**Hed** · 02-01-2005, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

I just read through this thread and there are a lot of old wives tales being thrown around.

1) It does not matter whether you switch from regular to synthetic, and vice versa. It will do absolutely no harm and will not cause leaks. A 30 weight oil has the same viscosity whether it is regular or synthetic. Now,....changing weights can possibly cause leaks in an older vehicle.

2) You do not have to "break in" an engine with regular oil. Many performance cars are now shipped with synthetic (as stated previous posts)

Hope this cleared some stuff up for you.

1) Seen it happen before, so i know for a fact its wrong.

2) The performance cars are shipped with synthetic, yes, but the engines are also pre-broken in at the factories on a stand, with standard mineral oil. Standard practice is to change the oil about 4 times in the first few hours of running the engine. Mineral oil not only allows bearings and rings to seat properly, but flushes out cam and lifter lube, grease, any small amounts of moisture, and also makes this process much more inexpensive than running oil thats $4.50 a quart through an engine for 15 minutes, then just dumping it out.

Any crate motor you buy new from a company that has never been run before will say to run it with mineral oil first, and gives you instructions on doing so.

**needmorestrength** · 02-01-2005, 04:30 PM

Yea I have 170,000 km on my integra.. hmm think its time for an oil change lol

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Hed

1) Seen it happen before, so i know for a fact its wrong.

2) The performance cars are shipped with synthetic, yes, but the engines are also pre-broken in at the factories on a stand, with standard mineral oil. Standard practice is to change the oil about 4 times in the first few hours of running the engine. Mineral oil not only allows bearings and rings to seat properly, but flushes out cam and lifter lube, grease, any small amounts of moisture, and also makes this process much more inexpensive than running oil thats $4.50 a quart through an engine for 15 minutes, then just dumping it out.

Any crate motor you buy new from a company that has never been run before will say to run it with mineral oil first, and gives you instructions on doing so.

So you are stating that the engine problem was solely attributed to the change of oil type? I guess you are an engineer also that knows these types of things? Do you do the tests on engines at factories?

I know for a fact that most higher end brands such as Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborgini, etc use synthetic oil only. And about 99% of engines are not broken in at the factory. That is just 100% wrong. The engines are ran at the factory, but they are ran for less than 20 minutes, and it is only to test for torque and horsepower, not to break in the motor.

Anything else you want to tell me? I back my statements up with knowledge gained as an engineer. How about your statements? Maybe your knowledge as a driveway mechanic?

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hed

Any crate motor you buy new from a company that has never been run before will say to run it with mineral oil first, and gives you instructions on doing so.

Also, I guess it wasn't clear earlier that I was speaking about high end cars with high end motors. I'm not talking about some Chevy, Ford, or Mopar crate engine. Those motors are nowhere near the tight tollerance and quality control of motors from Ferrari, Porsche, etc. A V8 that can rev to 5000rpm doesn't impress me as advanced technology. A Ferrari V8 that can rev to 8500rpm does impress me. Or Honda's V8 that revs to over 14,000rpm.

American V8's are gay. Well, except for the Motor in the Z06 and the new C6 vettes.

***Billy_Bathgate*** · 02-01-2005, 06:17 PM

Then what the hell are you talking about. The dude post about a jeep, not his ferrari

**Rocket** · 02-01-2005, 06:20 PM

Mobil 1 is not a true synthetic it is a blend. I used Redline Synthetic it is a true 100% Synthetic oil. You can get it a www.morethantires.com

Rocket

**Juggernaut** · 02-01-2005, 06:28 PM

You've no choice now Hung.....you must now run the engine without oil until it catches fire....then add the synthetic oil and see if it puts out the fire....if not then you needed a new engine to begine with........stick to oil...save the cash....then buy another car.....one that doesn't require so much thought. hahahaha

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate

Then what the hell are you talking about. The dude post about a jeep, not his ferrari

My original post:

Synthetic oils are only necessary in high performance cars or trucks. If you are looking for an oil for a simple daily driver economy car or a truck that sees no off-road time, dino oil is fine. I would actually prefer dino oil for a normal vehicle since it is WAY cheaper and does just as good under normal driving.

I thought my post was pretty simple and straight forward.

In my other post I am simply saying that engines do not need to be broken in with regular oil and that synthetic oil is fine for it. I proved that point by saying that high end brands that make the most high tech and most powerfull engines use synthetic oil from the get go. They DO NOT break in their motors with regular oil. In fact, they don't "break in" the motors at all beyond testing it for torque and horsepower.

You guys simply got your panties in a wad because I claimed that your statements were simply old wives tails. Just because JoeBob or his redneck neighbor says that his 350ci chevy engine in his Z28 broke because he used synthetic oil in it doesn't make him right. It just proves he's an idiot.

**Hed** · 02-01-2005, 06:53 PM

9000rpm, im not talking about internal engine problems from switching over, im talking about gaskets leaking. Guess i didnt make that clear.

Like someone else said, this guy was talking about advice for oil for his JEEP, not his Carrera GT.

American V8's suck? Sure they dont rev high. My friends mustang motor we put together this summer only revs to 6500 until you start to get valve float. I guess it sucks tho, putting out 650hp and 700ft lbs of torque N/A on 93 octaine.

So crack open an ice cold Bud Light mr "my car revs to 9000 rpm", because in the end, its not how fast your engine turns, its the fact that your car only makes 153 ft lbs of torque.

**Blown_SC** · 02-01-2005, 06:57 PM

Wow... just lost all interest in this thread.....

I'm an SAE member... hail me...

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Hed

9000rpm, im not talking about internal engine problems from switching over, im talking about gaskets leaking. Guess i didnt make that clear.

That is possible if your engine has extensive gasket wear. But with gaskets that are in good (not new) condition, there should still be no problem. But yes, if the gaskets are worn, they will probably leak with synthetic oil. But you will have problems soon with all that sludge built up that's blocking those leaks anyway.

Originally Posted by Hed

.American V8's suck? Sure they dont rev high. My friends mustang motor we put together this summer only revs to 6500 until you start to get valve float. I guess it sucks tho, putting out 650hp and 700ft lbs of torque N/A on 93 octaine.

What size motor does he have in it? Simply saying 650hp doesn't mean much to me. he could have a 500ci crate motor in it. Then 650hp isn't impressive at all. And are we talking about rear wheel horsepower or brake horsepower?

Originally Posted by Hed

So crack open an ice cold Bud Light mr "my car revs to 9000 rpm", because in the end, its not how fast your engine turns, its the fact that your car only makes 153 ft lbs of torque.

Oh no,....not the torque joke again. I've never heard that one before.

Lots of torque isn't necessary with a light car. The S2000 weighs about 2800lbs, a typical mustang is easily 3400lbs. Kinda porky if you ask me.

**Hed** · 02-01-2005, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

That is possible if your engine has extensive gasket wear. But with gaskets that are in good (not new) condition, there should still be no problem. But yes, if the gaskets are worn, they will probably leak with synthetic oil. But you will have problems soon with all that sludge built up that's blocking those leaks anyway.

What size motor does he have in it? Simply saying 650hp doesn't mean much to me. he could have a 500ci crate motor in it. Then 650hp isn't impressive at all. And are we talking about rear wheel horsepower or brake horsepower?

Oh no,....not the torque joke again. I've never heard that one before.

Lots of torque isn't necessary with a light car. The S2000 weighs about 2800lbs, a typical mustang is easily 3400lbs. Kinda porky if you ask me.

Haha, the stang is an 89 Notchback. right around 3000 lbs. Motor is a 351 block, 393 stroker kit internals. im talking rwhp, not engine hp. flywheel hp means jack to me. its a stick car still. interior is pretty much stripped, but its got some extra weight from the roll cage. theres not too much in the car other than front seats and that.

Main gaskets ive seen leaking after changing from synt to mineral is oil pan and rear main seal.

And hell yea, id still rock an s2000. in the twisties, you keep the rpms up, and they are fun little bastards. id prolly throw that intercooled vortech unit on it to give it at least some torque tho. torque is too much fun to miss.

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 08:42 PM

I guess the "American V8's are gay" statement was a little retarded. Because I do love the '69 Camero. I'd like to get one some day. I have a friend at my work that has an old Mustang fastback and it's motor has about 500hp. It is also stripped down to about 3000lbs. That thing is a beast in a straight line. But I'd hate to be in it when he turns it.

We always get into arguements about what is better, new technology or good old muscle cars. They really are two different beasts that aren't even comparable.

I hope to build a turbo kit for my S in a year or two. There are several guys now with custom turbo kits on their S2000's that have well over 500hp to the rear wheels. One guy is now trying for 700+. That's pretty impressive seeing that it is a 2.0 litre motor. But the torque is still at the 350ftlb area. The S2000 lacks torque mainly because of its short stroke. I believe it has an 89mm stroke and a 90 or 91mm bore.

But I do admit I'd like about 100ftlb more torque. But if kept at 6000rpm or more, it isn't noticed at all.

Anyway, no offense guys. There are few things that men are so passionate about, their cars, their money, and their women.

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hed

Haha, the stang is an 89 Notchback. right around 3000 lbs. Motor is a 351 block, 393 stroker kit internals. im talking rwhp, not engine hp. flywheel hp means jack to me.

I just ran this calculation.

A 393ci motor is 6.44 liters.

At 650hp, (700 crank) it is making about 109hp/liter. This is still an impressive number.

The S2000 still has the world record for most horsepower per liter out of any production car ever made in history.

240hp (120hp/liter)

The S2000's secret is in its head. It has one of the highest flowing heads ever produced.

**Hed** · 02-01-2005, 09:15 PM

I wonder mathmatically how it would factor in the torque. Like, in changing the compression in my buddys motor and lets say, the stroke, could he still get a 650hp motor with only like 250 ft lbs of torque?

Hmmmmmmm, now im thinking deep.........

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by Hed

I wonder mathmatically how it would factor in the torque. Like, in changing the compression in my buddys motor and lets say, the stroke, could he still get a 650hp motor with only like 250 ft lbs of torque?

Hmmmmmmm, now im thinking deep.........

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

**Hed** · 02-02-2005, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

It basically comes down to bore vs. stroke. Theoretically, if you have a 4cyl with a bore of 3 feet in each cyl, and a stroke, of a foot, and heads that could flow the air needed, could you have an extremely high HP engine w/ no torque at all?

(just an unrelistic example, more realistic would be like a 109mm bore and a 75mm stroke or something like that.

**hung-solo** · 02-02-2005, 08:40 AM

**** thieves!

**Hed** · 02-02-2005, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by hung-solo

**** thieves!

Ha, sorry.

Use Mobil 1.

**DanDoola** · 02-02-2005, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

I just ran this calculation.

A 393ci motor is 6.44 liters.

At 650hp, (700 crank) it is making about 109hp/liter. This is still an impressive number.

The S2000 still has the world record for most horsepower per liter out of any production car ever made in history.

240hp (120hp/liter)

The S2000's secret is in its head. It has one of the highest flowing heads ever produced.

I'm so sick of ricer mentality (my car makes more hp/liter than yours) that is gay my friend. I don't care if your car makes 200 hp/liter, if you've got a .5L engine, you're still slow as ****. I know you already retracted your American V8s are gay statement, but I'd just like to let you know my '02 Camaro SS will wipe it's ass with your car, bone stock except for a catback and lid. Quarter mile, eighth mile, 2 mile ring, whatever.

Oh, and my SS is porky too, but when you put 325 hp and 340 ft/lbs to the pavement (bone stock), it doesn't really matter does it. One more thing 650 rwhp is equivalent to roughly 750 at the crank assuming 12% parasitic loss cause he's got a stick. If he only had 700 crank and 650 to the wheels, he'd only have about a 6% loss which is pretty impossible.

SORRY FOR HIJACKING YOUR THREAD

**DanDoola** · 02-02-2005, 10:45 PM

Power to weight ratio is what's important. At 240 crank, I'm assuming you're putting down about 210 to the ground. This works out to roughly 13.3 lbs/hp

A Fat, American V8 putting 300 hp to the ground has a power to weight ratio of 11.3 lbs/hp.

And for those post clen /T3 American V8's (namely vettes), their power to weight ratio is about 9.2 lbs/hp And I'm not talking about the new C6's or a Z06, I'm talkin' C5.

Sorry, I got a little off topic, but I think you should be fine switching to syn. I haven't run any tests, but I do know that a friend of mine has a '94 sonoma 4-banger with well over 300,000 miles on it WITHOUT a rebuild, and he has been using Mobil 1 since about 40,000 miles. So that is an example of running syn in a low perf. motor with a decent bit of miles on it.

My advice is to have the oil in your Jeep now analyzed. That'll point you in the right direction to see if it's worth changing to syn or not.

**9000rpm** · 02-03-2005, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by DanDoola

I'm so sick of ricer mentality (my car makes more hp/liter than yours) that is gay my friend. I don't care if your car makes 200 hp/liter, if you've got a .5L engine, you're still slow as ****. I know you already retracted your American V8s are gay statement, but I'd just like to let you know my '02 Camaro SS will wipe it's ass with your car, bone stock except for a catback and lid. Quarter mile, eighth mile, 2 mile ring, whatever.

Oh, and my SS is porky too, but when you put 325 hp and 340 ft/lbs to the pavement (bone stock), it doesn't really matter does it. One more thing 650 rwhp is equivalent to roughly 750 at the crank assuming 12% parasitic loss cause he's got a stick. If he only had 700 crank and 650 to the wheels, he'd only have about a 6% loss which is pretty impossible.

SORRY FOR HIJACKING YOUR THREAD

You sound like the typical SS owner.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but 325hp from a V8 isn't that great. BMW gets 330 from their straight six in the M3. Face it, your car is a redneck rocket. Sure, I know you will beat me in a drag race, but not by much. Maybe 1 to 1.5 car lengths. That's just a few tenths of a second. So why should I be impressed? The S2000 can run the 1/4 mile in 13.8 seconds. What does the SS do it in, 13 flat? Maybe a 12.8 or 9? Weak,......especially for a V8. The sad thing is, my car is a 2.0liter four cylinder, yours is a 5.7liter V8, and you can only beat my car by that little of a margin.

Now, take the battle to any road course, whether it be a wide open one with large straights, or a tight and technical one. I will make you look like you are driving a dump truck around it. And please don't try to dispute this, you will just look dumb.

**Juggernaut** · 02-03-2005, 02:19 PM

I've a 68 vette.......350, roller rocker, two holly DP'ers (850's) tunnel ram intake....had to put a franklin 10" rear end on her....kept twisting the u-bolts. I'm thinking of getting a roots blower for her....just for giggles.

**9000rpm** · 02-03-2005, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by DanDoola

Power to weight ratio is what's important. At 240 crank, I'm assuming you're putting down about 210 to the ground. This works out to roughly 13.3 lbs/hp

A Fat, American V8 putting 300 hp to the ground has a power to weight ratio of 11.3 lbs/hp.

And for those post clen/T3 American V8's (namely vettes), their power to weight ratio is about 9.2 lbs/hp And I'm not talking about the new C6's or a Z06, I'm talkin' C5.

The S2000 puts down about 205 at the rear wheels. So weighing in at 2800lbs, that puts its power to weight ratio at 13.66lb/hp

The Camaro SS weighs 3553.9 lbs (just googled it). If it were to get 300 to the ground (which I highly doubt), it's power to weight ratio would be 11.85.

But let's use his numbers for parasitic drivetrain losses. 325hp with 12% loss makes it to 286hp to the wheels. That means it would have a more realistic power to weight ratio of 12.43lb/hp.

Does that spell out a huge loss and him "wiping his ass with my car"?

Nope.

In all actuality, the SS and the WS6 will beat an S2000 any day of the week. But the stock Z28, Firebird (V8), and the Mustang GT are dead evven races with the S2000. And they all have V8's. That is what I think is pathetic.