Organic food.

**Hunter** · 06-14-2011, 08:21 PM

How many of you find it important to eat organically or at least try to? What about personal products (soap, shampoo, etc)?

Personally I try to eat organically as much as possible, we have a large 3+ acre garden and with all the hunting and fishing I do its pretty easy. We also have a amish community about 60 miles away and that is were we buy most of our chicken and beef.

We also buy a lot of soap from them among other things.

**Times Roman** · 06-15-2011, 06:51 AM

I personally ignore organic food labels... just another excuse for the grocery stores to jack the price. BTW... organic does NOT mean they are not using chemicals. Bet you didn't know that, did you? There is a list of approved chemicals "organic" farmers are permitted to use. And the list continues to grow....

"Different countries have different regulations as to what chemicals can be used for a product to still be called organic. Here are some of the most popular ones allowed in the United States:

•Neem: Derived from a tree that grows in India, neem is a slow-working pesticide that is best used on crops that are not for eating. It can be used to control gypsy moths, sweet potato whiteflies, mealybugs and caterpillars, among other insects. It is not toxic to mammals.
•Nicotine sulfate: A chemical derived from tobacco, nicotine sulfate is toxic to insects and warm-blooded animals. Make sure to wear gloves when applying it. It can be used to get rid of aphids, spider mites and thrips, but should not be used on roses.
•Pyrethrum: Probably the most commonly used chemical in organic gardening is pyrethrum, a chemical that comes from chrysanthemums. It is a powerful insecticide that knocks down (but doesn't necessarily kill) insects quickly. It is one of the safest chemicals out there for humans. In fact, some say you can use it the same day you harvest vegetables. There are also synthetic versions of pyrethrum that are not used in organic farming.
•Rotenone: Rotenone comes from plants in the Leguminoceae family. It is used to control leaf-eating caterpillars, as well as beetles and aphids. It is somewhat toxic to humans and extremely toxic to fish.
•Sabadilla: Sabadilla, which comes from the seeds of a lily, is considered the least toxic organic pesticide. It is effective on caterpillars, squash bugs and stink bugs, among others. Its dust can be irritating, so wear protection when you work with it.
•Sulfur: The mineral sulfur is probably the oldest pesticide and is used to treat mildew, rust, leaf blight and fruit rot. Some insects, such as spider mites, are also sensitive to sulfur. It can be applied as a powder, paste or liquid. It can irritate the eyes, but is not otherwise harmful to humans or other mammals.
Other naturally derived chemicals can be used for fertilizer such as alfalfa meal, bat guano, blood meal, bone meal and gypsum. These and other natural additives can be used on the soil and the plants grown from it can still be considered organic.

If you are looking to get your farm certified organic, you need to be careful not to use any chemicals that are not approved. When in doubt, contact the certifying agency you are working with to make sure you're not doing anything that will put your certification in jeopardy.

**oscarjones** · 06-15-2011, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I personally ignore organic food labels... just another excuse for the grocery stores to jack the price. BTW... organic does NOT mean they are not using chemicals. Bet you didn't know that, did you? There is a list of approved chemicals "organic" farmers are permitted to use. And the list continues to grow....

"Different countries have different regulations as to what chemicals can be used for a product to still be called organic. Here are some of the most popular ones allowed in the United States:

•Neem: Derived from a tree that grows in India, neem is a slow-working pesticide that is best used on crops that are not for eating. It can be used to control gypsy moths, sweet potato whiteflies, mealybugs and caterpillars, among other insects. It is not toxic to mammals.
•Nicotine sulfate: A chemical derived from tobacco, nicotine sulfate is toxic to insects and warm-blooded animals. Make sure to wear gloves when applying it. It can be used to get rid of aphids, spider mites and thrips, but should not be used on roses.
•Pyrethrum: Probably the most commonly used chemical in organic gardening is pyrethrum, a chemical that comes from chrysanthemums. It is a powerful insecticide that knocks down (but doesn't necessarily kill) insects quickly. It is one of the safest chemicals out there for humans. In fact, some say you can use it the same day you harvest vegetables. There are also synthetic versions of pyrethrum that are not used in organic farming.
•Rotenone: Rotenone comes from plants in the Leguminoceae family. It is used to control leaf-eating caterpillars, as well as beetles and aphids. It is somewhat toxic to humans and extremely toxic to fish.
•Sabadilla: Sabadilla, which comes from the seeds of a lily, is considered the least toxic organic pesticide. It is effective on caterpillars, squash bugs and stink bugs, among others. Its dust can be irritating, so wear protection when you work with it.
•Sulfur: The mineral sulfur is probably the oldest pesticide and is used to treat mildew, rust, leaf blight and fruit rot. Some insects, such as spider mites, are also sensitive to sulfur. It can be applied as a powder, paste or liquid. It can irritate the eyes, but is not otherwise harmful to humans or other mammals.
Other naturally derived chemicals can be used for fertilizer such as alfalfa meal, bat guano, blood meal, bone meal and gypsum. These and other natural additives can be used on the soil and the plants grown from it can still be considered organic.

If you are looking to get your farm certified organic, you need to be careful not to use any chemicals that are not approved. When in doubt, contact the certifying agency you are working with to make sure you're not doing anything that will put your certification in jeopardy.

The soil on our planet has been depleted so therefore our crops can't survive on their own. If we had really nutritious soil, the crops we grow would grow strong and have no need of extra protection from bugs and insects. That being said, the industrial food supply is horribly unhealthy and toxic for our bodies. They use larvacides, pesticides, and synthetic chemicals to create a barrier against these insects that invade, however, what they don't mention is how it affects the people eating it!

With Organic foods, you are getting the best version of food our planet is able to supply. Yes, Organic foods aren't perfect, and neither is our species, or planet. So, by eating organic you are cutting a substantial amount of unnatural toxicity out of your intake, and helping to sustain a less toxic state in your body! Inasmuch, no matter if you eat organic or not, it won't change the nutritional values of what you ingest. Both industrialized and organic probably contain the same nutritional value, so it's important to take your multi-vitamins and supplements to make up for their lack. At least with organic you know you aren't adding as many shitty chemicals into your body. To me, that's priceless. I would rather pay more and eat healthier than disregard this evolving battle of nutricide and chemical toxicity.

**Times Roman** · 06-15-2011, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

The soil on our planet has been depleted so therefore our crops can't survive on their own. If we had really nutritious soil, the crops we grow would grow strong and have no need of extra protection from bugs and insects. That being said, the industrial food supply is horribly unhealthy and toxic for our bodies. They use larvacides, pesticides, and synthetic chemicals to create a barrier against these insects that invade, however, what they don't mention is how it affects the people eating it!

With Organic foods, you are getting the best version of food our planet is able to supply. Yes, Organic foods aren't perfect, and neither is our species, or planet. So, by eating organic you are cutting a substantial amount of unnatural toxicity out of your intake, and helping to sustain a less toxic state in your body! Inasmuch, no matter if you eat organic or not, it won't change the nutritional values of what you ingest. Both industrialized and organic probably contain the same nutritional value, so it's important to take your multi-vitamins and supplements to make up for their lack. At least with organic you know you aren't adding as many shitty chemicals into your body. To me, that's priceless. I would rather pay more and eat healthier than disregard this evolving battle of nutricide and chemical toxicity.

I dont' buy it. You can add your own mulch and create fantastic soil with no added chemicals... period! Organic was originally meant to be chemical free. But the powerful lobbiests petitioned government and convinced them that they should still be able to retain the "organic" label, and yet add chemicals. the list was small in the beginning, and it was "supposed" to phase out after a certain number of years. Guess what? Not only has it NOT been phased out, it has actually grown.

Organic is now, it seems, a marketing ploy by big agribusiness so that it gives them an excuse to charge alot more. The reality is the "normal" produce is actually very good, and if there were toxic chemicals, a very good chance the FDA and other agencies would be all over it.

**Times Roman** · 06-15-2011, 09:26 AM

and not only that, organic farming was originally a boutique industry, with farmers managing smaller pieces of land. Now, it seems, the small farmers have all been bought out by big agribusiness, and this shit is being harvested in huge quantities just like the normal produce.

Don't be fooled mate!

**gixxerboy1** · 06-15-2011, 10:15 AM

there was an article on MSN a while ago about the 5 biggest waste of money at the food stores. Organic food was listed on there.

**Times Roman** · 06-15-2011, 10:22 AM

there was a small plot farmer about a mile from my house in Cali. grew all his own produce, had his little road side stand out there. pull over, honk your horn, and he'd come out and sell you pretty much any veggie you want. he never used any chemicals or pesticides... all natural. not once did he ever refer to his shit as "organic". charged just a little more than supermarket price, but not much. shit was picked right then and there, extremely fresh.

I don't need some huge commercial agribusiness putting a sticker on a tomato telling me it's "organic" and then charging me twice as much as what he should be charging....

**buffgator** · 06-15-2011, 10:22 AM

my parents own chickens and raise one or two cows a year. Also we have bought a quarter acre of corn, tomato, carrots, onions, potato, cucumbers, & peppers, but thats the extent of my organic life

**Times Roman** · 06-15-2011, 10:28 AM

have you ever raised rabbits? I did for about a year or so. Man! that is some good eating!!!

**buffgator** · 06-15-2011, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

have you ever raised rabbits? I did for about a year or so. Man! that is some good eating!!!

rabbit is surprisingly good

**Times Roman** · 06-15-2011, 10:43 AM

if/when I ever retire, I've always said i'd like to raise rabbits again

(and brew beer again....)

**C-MaN** · 06-15-2011, 12:56 PM

I buy all organic from the "dirty dozen" of vegetables. Celery has crazy amounts of chemicals and other nasty bits you dont want to know about. I think anyone who cares about their body should watch Food Inc. Awesome Documentary!

**Hunter** · 06-15-2011, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I personally ignore organic food labels... just another excuse for the grocery stores to jack the price. BTW... organic does NOT mean they are not using chemicals. Bet you didn't know that, did you? There is a list of approved chemicals "organic" farmers are permitted to use. And the list continues to grow....

"Different countries have different regulations as to what chemicals can be used for a product to still be called organic. Here are some of the most popular ones allowed in the United States:

•Neem: Derived from a tree that grows in India, neem is a slow-working pesticide that is best used on crops that are not for eating. It can be used to control gypsy moths, sweet potato whiteflies, mealybugs and caterpillars, among other insects. It is not toxic to mammals.
•Nicotine sulfate: A chemical derived from tobacco, nicotine sulfate is toxic to insects and warm-blooded animals. Make sure to wear gloves when applying it. It can be used to get rid of aphids, spider mites and thrips, but should not be used on roses.
•Pyrethrum: Probably the most commonly used chemical in organic gardening is pyrethrum, a chemical that comes from chrysanthemums. It is a powerful insecticide that knocks down (but doesn't necessarily kill) insects quickly. It is one of the safest chemicals out there for humans. In fact, some say you can use it the same day you harvest vegetables. There are also synthetic versions of pyrethrum that are not used in organic farming.
•Rotenone: Rotenone comes from plants in the Leguminoceae family. It is used to control leaf-eating caterpillars, as well as beetles and aphids. It is somewhat toxic to humans and extremely toxic to fish.
•Sabadilla: Sabadilla, which comes from the seeds of a lily, is considered the least toxic organic pesticide. It is effective on caterpillars, squash bugs and stink bugs, among others. Its dust can be irritating, so wear protection when you work with it.
•Sulfur: The mineral sulfur is probably the oldest pesticide and is used to treat mildew, rust, leaf blight and fruit rot. Some insects, such as spider mites, are also sensitive to sulfur. It can be applied as a powder, paste or liquid. It can irritate the eyes, but is not otherwise harmful to humans or other mammals.
Other naturally derived chemicals can be used for fertilizer such as alfalfa meal, bat guano, blood meal, bone meal and gypsum. These and other natural additives can be used on the soil and the plants grown from it can still be considered organic.

If you are looking to get your farm certified organic, you need to be careful not to use any chemicals that are not approved. When in doubt, contact the certifying agency you are working with to make sure you're not doing anything that will put your certification in jeopardy.

Actually I did, thus why i grow my own. I also didnt mention grocery stores once, I actually brought up amish and if it wouldnt have been so late I probably would have brought up farmers markets as well.

**Flagg** · 06-15-2011, 01:02 PM

Organic food is all about how you look at it.

Do you buy it because you think it brings a better healthier option? Do you buy it because you think it's environmentally friendly? Do you buy it for ethical reasons? Or do you buy it, cause you're one of these rich cvnts that see's something expensive and thinks that's what should be bought?

I worte a paper on organic food and I came to quite a few interesting conclusions.

Firstly, is it healthier to eat organic food compared to other foods? It depends on what you are measuring it against. Organic food measured against something from a mixed system or free range, the "health" or "nutritional" differences are virtually non existant. If you compared a Organic Chicken to an Intensive Chicken, then perhaps organic is healthier...a lot of intensive farm animals are pumped full of hormones, GHG, and so forth to finish them quicker. Some people are very suspicious about foods that are "artificially" enhanced still.

From a ethical/welfare point of view, I would definitely say that organic food is far superior to intensive food. But again, it depends on what perspective you look at it. For instance, a person see's a chickens on a organic farm, outside, dustbathing, and they think that chicken has a high level of welfare because it's expressing normal behaviour. But what if that chicken gets sick? In an intensive system, chickens are fed all sorts of anti-biotics. Antibiotics are hugely prohibited in organic systems, so from a vetinary point of view....is a sick chicken outside suffering from a sub-clinical parasite enjoying a good welfare of life?

Then you have environmental implications. Typically, on organic farms, things like pesticide use will be much lower than intensive farms, much, much less water will be used as well. But methane (CH4) output is dubious. For instance, per area of land, organic cows will have a lower CH4 footprint than intensive cows, there's less of them. However, per kilo of product, organic is MUCH higher than intensive. This is because, the finishing weight of a intensive reared cow will be much larger than an organic cow. Also the intensive cow will finish quicker. In other words, the total weight of 6 organic cows could be the same as 5 intensive cows. Thats an extra cow, that's alive for longer before slaughter.

The Soil Association is a "charity" that champions organic foods. Organic Farmers do what they do because its a way of life. In the UK, they want all organic meat to be "organic" by 2050, but they are completely delusional if they think that will happen. This is because when you look at the total meat output on this planet, 45% of all meat comes from intensive systems, 45% come from mixed systems and just 5% comes from other (organic). Orgranic and free range systems, despite only producing 5% of all meat, occupt the SAME amount of land as other systems, and have a greenhouse footprint almost as big as the others.

Organic food in my view, is a nice idea. It's a niche market, and one day i'd like to be in the position where I buy all my food as organic. I would do that for purely ethical reasons. I don't believe eating meat is bad, but I don't condone animal cruelty and animal cruelty is rife in intensive systems. A lot of instensive farms are comparable to concentration camps.

**oscarjones** · 06-15-2011, 05:36 PM

If you honestly believe eating a hormone-fattened chicken is healthier than organic and hormone free, or free range. Than you are the delusional ones!

**Times Roman** · 06-15-2011, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

If you honestly believe eating a hormone-fattened chicken is healthier than organic and hormone free, or free range. Than you are the delusional ones!

Let's see.... Flagg actually took the time to write a paper on it, which meant he studied the subject and analyzed a variety of different data sources.

Based on his comments, it would appear that free range chicken, perhaps, are marginally better.

If you have data we do not have access to, I'd be interested to see it. (from a reliable source, and not necessarily from the News Rag in the check out aisle). I am always interested in seeing new data.

....or are you just shooting from the hip there cowboy?

**MastaMan** · 06-15-2011, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

Let's see.... Flagg actually took the time to write a paper on it, which meant he studied the subject and analyzed a variety of different data sources.

Based on his comments, it would appear that free range chicken, perhaps, are marginally better.

If you have data we do not have access to, I'd be interested to see it. (from a reliable source, and not necessarily from the News Rag in the check out aisle). I am always interested in seeing new data.

....or are you just shooting from the hip there cowboy?

Animals that are in their natural environment eating the foods they have evolved with will always be healthier and thus more nutritious... soy filler in chicken feed has made chickens increasingly fat... grain fed cattle meat has less omega 3's and iron than their natural counterpart, grass fed cows... And with plants an important factor to consider is sometimes not whether it is organic, but whether or not it is LOCAL.

**Times Roman** · 06-15-2011, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by MastaMan

Animals that are in their natural environment eating the foods they have evolved with will always be healthier and thus more nutritious... soy filler in chicken feed has made chickens increasingly fat... grain fed cattle meat has less omega 3's and iron than their natural counterpart, grass fed cows... And with plants an important factor to consider is sometimes not whether it is organic, but whether or not it is LOCAL.

data? data? data?

where's the data to back that up?

**Flagg** · 06-16-2011, 05:13 AM

@OscarJones and MastaMan, please reread what I said! I'm not saying hormone growth chickens are healthier than organic! I'm saying that differences between something like organic and free rangein terms of healthy eating are marginal at best despite organic costing more than free range.

I don't think its normal to finish an animal on hormones prior to slaughter, most intensive "chickens" are just juvenile chicks still blown up to the size of an adult.

As TimesRoman said, I can show you various sources of information?

**songdog** · 06-16-2011, 01:58 PM

I believe its just another scam!

**oscarjones** · 06-16-2011, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Flagg

@OscarJones and MastaMan, please reread what I said! I'm not saying hormone growth chickens are healthier than organic! I'm saying that differences between something like organic and free rangein terms of healthy eating are marginal at best despite organic costing more than free range.

I don't think its normal to finish an animal on hormones prior to slaughter, most intensive "chickens" are just juvenile chicks still blown up to the size of an adult.

As TimesRoman said, I can show you various sources of information?

Just the thought that most industrialized food has chemicals and hormones in it, sets me off. Whether it's 100% worse than organic, in terms of health, or if they are all relatively similar, it's just the thought and knowing I can be healthier that makes me buy organic as much as possible!

Also, MOST of the organic foods I buy taste better and last longer in the fridge than non-organic. Organic vegetarian fed, free range chicken eggs, for example are soooo delicious. They even look better when you cook them, they don't have that super yellow fake look.

Eh, well to each their own.

**Flagg** · 06-16-2011, 06:30 PM

Oscar I actually couldn't agree more. I personally find free range and organic food much tastier than industrial products. Corporations will tell you that intensive livestock is for feeding the population, but its all about greed. Producing tons of food in shitty conditions to make a quick buck.

Organic and free range food is NOT a scam, part of the reason its so damn expensive is because the cheap shit is so competitively priced.

**MastaMan** · 06-16-2011, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

data? data? data?

where's the data to back that up?

http://www.nutritionj.com/content/9/1/10 <--- data. Less saturated fat, more omega 3. Healthier.

**Times Roman** · 06-17-2011, 09:14 AM

-----------

**Times Roman** · 06-17-2011, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by MastaMan

http://www.nutritionj.com/content/9/1/10 <--- data. Less saturated fat, more omega 3. Healthier.

the original discussion was organic vs. non "organic" products.

Somehow, I guess I didn't fully pay attention, but this thing changed from organic vs. non "organic" products, to...

grain fed beef to grass fed beef.

different argument. So really, what we are talking about is free range cattle vs. cattle raised in close confined spaces. I realized my error once I began reading your link. and actually, this information has been out for a long time.

So back to the original discussion of "organic" vs. non "organic" products.... my original position stands.... it is a marketing ploy to drum up the sales price to gullible "huggers" and others with more cash.....

**oscarjones** · 06-18-2011, 08:23 AM

Lots of non-organic products are GMO (genetically modified), or contain ingredients that are genetically modified.

Here's a quick list of the safe non-GMO foods.

http://www.nongmoshoppingguide.com/

**Times Roman** · 06-18-2011, 08:35 AM

see? now that's what I'm talking about. Safe GMO food. Too many people watching TV think GMO will turn us into genetically modified pods susciptable to alien mind control.

the science behind GMO is getting better all the time.

**Flagg** · 06-19-2011, 10:44 AM

I think the future is going to be GM foods in my opinion. I'm actually okay with the idea, but don't be fooled into thinking they are for one minute SAFE.

You're talking about doing things that nature cannot do, mixing DNA of two totally different species together. What of people with allergies? What if these cause new allergies? What about fields of GM crops near fields of normal crops? Cross polination, etc?

In the future you will be able to make crops that can survive floods and droughts. GM tech is expensive in the beginning, but cheap in the long run. There are many, MANY methods for creating GM products. Seriously in the future people are going to have to learn to be less squeamish. I think eating meat will be a luxury in the future, and things like GM products and insects will be the norm. If the governments of the world want to continue to feed an ever growing population then this is what they'll have to do. I'm actually okay with Transgenic products but I can easily understand how members of the public would be suspicious. But a second Green Revolution WILL OCCUR.

India have had success with GM food, Golden Rice springs to mind:
http://www.goldenrice.org/Content2-How/how1_sci.html

**oscarjones** · 06-19-2011, 10:47 PM

I hope they invent implants to monitor every level of molecule in our circulatory blood and allow us to actually inject nutrients that nourish and simulate digestion. Soon enough we'll be walking gods.

**lovbyts** · 06-19-2011, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I personally ignore organic food labels... just another excuse for the grocery stores to jack the price. BTW... organic does NOT mean they are not using chemicals. Bet you didn't know that, did you? There is a list of approved chemicals "organic" farmers are permitted to use. And the list continues to grow....

My thoughts since day 1 of ORGANIC came out. My exceptions are Milk and sometimes eggs. As for vegetables I just make sure I wash them.