The American Government shutdown

[Rwy]

It really would be great if there was a reset button. You push a button and every one of these ****ing joke of a politicians get yanked out of office and get replaced by competent people.

[Euroholic]

Guys I am enjoying the debate a lot but a couple of you need to calm down, yes I am looking at fcastle and euroholic. I admire both of your passion but you can't start referring to others as "those people". If you don't like something, try and argue why without telling someone to get a clue. I do agree with what you're saying Euro, but easy on how you express yourself.

Hazard to answer something you asked earlier, the idea of universal health care had been around in the UK since the early 1900' s, but it was officially passed just after WW 2. I have to say I'm amazed that the doctors wage packet comes before the well being of the patient. I agree with DB 1982 pretty much on everything he has said.

Ive always had problems expressing my self

[Hazard]

I only mention it hazard bevause you guys keep going on about it. Ive said my bit ill lay off. Just one thing tho about the guns tho. You say its your right to have guns. It was also my right as a white australian to shoot and kill black people at one point. My point is things change with the times. You dont burn women as witches anymore.

That argument doesn't hold up here. Our constitution states that you have a right to life. That goes for all men regardless of race.

That doesn't mean atrocities weren't committed..... Because they were but even our first president was against slavery.

[Hazard]

So Flagg let me ask you this.....


Is healthcare a service? I don't want the moral answer here. I want the real one.

At the end of the day..... Healthcare is something that is learned by someone. It's a service that they provide. Whether for free or for an unreasonable price is solely up to them.

If we can agree that it's a service than how can it ever be a born right?

If you still think its a born right then let me ask you this...... If the younger generation decided that no one wanted to become a doctor and all the others eventually retired..... Who would give you your "right" to healthcare?

So if we can agree that it's a service provided by someone who had to learn how to provide that service then what you are saying is.....

"It's a service but we should all be given that service"

Apply this thought to any other trade and people would go bananas man

[Fcastle357]

I do respect the opinion of the next person even if i disagree. We have the right to say what we want which in itself is a great thing. I do think that an armed America posses a threat to the government. Could we take it over? Maybe. Depends on the military and what side they take. I also believe that if we were not armed things would be very different. Maybe this is all an illusion of hope. Perhaps we as people have no hope of changing the way the US is headed and by being divided makes us even weaker. Maybe the few rights we do have keep us pacified to keep following along. The further we go the more our rights get blurred by who ever is in power. I do believe that what the government wants is to police and control the population and I feel Obama care is another part of it.

[Hazard]

I don't want people to get the wrong idea. I wish EVERYONE had access to healthcare.

The problem lies within how our government is going about it.

You tell me what your first red flag is that this isn't good.....

- 2700 page bill was asked to be signed in 48hrs
- Obama exempted himself and the rest of the government from it
- it costs $1trillion and we don't know how we are going to fund it
- Obama promised no tax increase which he then rescinded and is now taxing us if we don't purchase it
- the worst coverage plan is still too expensive for the average person
- due to requirements to insure employees..... Hundreds of thousands of Americans are being laid off or having hours cut so they won't have to be insured.
- the $5billion set aside to cover uninsurables (preexisting conditions) is already running out and we aren't even into the "official start" of this yet


Ill leave that for now.....

Lets not forget that this isn't "universal healthcare" - its not like Europe. The government is playing the role of an insurance company per se. Except they're requiring everyone to purchase a plan and if you don't - you pay a fine which goes into the governments pocket.

[evander87]

So Flagg let me ask you this.....


Is healthcare a service? I don't want the moral answer here. I want the real one.

At the end of the day..... Healthcare is something that is learned by someone. It's a service that they provide. Whether for free or for an unreasonable price is solely up to them.

If we can agree that it's a service than how can it ever be a born right?

If you still think its a born right then let me ask you this...... If the younger generation decided that no one wanted to become a doctor and all the others eventually retired..... Who would give you your "right" to healthcare?

So if we can agree that it's a service provided by someone who had to learn how to provide that service then what you are saying is.....

"It's a service but we should all be given that service"

Apply this thought to any other trade and people would go bananas man

YOu mean like education? Is public school a born right or a service paid by tax payers?

[Rwy]

I do respect the opinion of the next person even if i disagree. We have the right to say what we want which in itself is a great thing. I do think that an armed America posses a threat to the government. Could we take it over? Maybe. Depends on the military and what side they take. I also believe that if we were not armed things would be very different. Maybe this is all an illusion of hope. Perhaps we as people have no hope of changing the way the US is headed and by being divided makes us even weaker. Maybe the few rights we do have keep us pacified to keep following along. The further we go the more our rights get blurred by who ever is in power. I do believe that what the government wants is to police and control the population and I feel Obama care is another part of it.

This is kinda the way I feel. How the **** do you change things? The system is so corrupt and no one really cares about the American people. They care about how it will advance their political careers. The US is a big barge of shit that cannot make any quick turn around. It can slowly be steered in one direction.

Or is it going to take a full on revolt from the people? I dont feel like we are free. They do what the **** they want when they want regardless of what the American people think. I really dont think our votes count because now they know how to manipulate groups in order to grab a certain groups vote. Its not because that candidate will turn it around its because they get free stuff, or we fear terror, and what ever the next one is voted in for.....

[songdog]

There is something about Obama care that don't smell right.But by the time we find out wat it is.Well then it will be too late.

[ZenFitness]

My main beef is that the Republicans lost, so let's get on with things instead of throwing a tantrum and causing huge collateral damage.

In the next election I will not vote for any incumbent politician in my district, period. I will vote against them.

[Hazard]

My main beef is that the Republicans lost, so let's get on with things instead of throwing a tantrum and causing huge collateral damage.

In the next election I will not vote for any incumbent politician in my district, period. I will vote against them.

While I understand your frustration..... This is why a lot voted for Obama. People were pissed off at republicans.....

When people vote they should take EVERYTHING into consideration and not vote for the opposite at who they're mad at.

The republicans didn't "lose" per se. They just signed something without reading much about it. Not just them..... Democrats also. I don't believe this healthcare issue is strictly political..... There ARE democrats against it and republicans for it

[Hazard]

YOu mean like education? Is public school a born right or a service paid by tax payers?

You are 100% correct...... Teaching IS a service. You aren't guaranteed an education when you are born.

[Hazard]

This is kinda the way I feel. How the **** do you change things? The system is so corrupt and no one really cares about the American people. They care about how it will advance their political careers. The US is a big barge of shit that cannot make any quick turn around. It can slowly be steered in one direction.

Or is it going to take a full on revolt from the people? I dont feel like we are free. They do what the **** they want when they want regardless of what the American people think. I really dont think our votes count because now they know how to manipulate groups in order to grab a certain groups vote. Its not because that candidate will turn it around its because they get free stuff, or we fear terror, and what ever the next one is voted in for.....

This is my feeling..... It's shitty. I feel like we've lost our way and we're so piled high with shit that its going to take a miracle to fix.

Even if one guy comes along who runs for senate that really tries to do the right thing - he'll be corrupted not long after or he'll simply make no headway by himself.

We almost need a whole new political party that's not funded by anyone except your everyday citizen. Then again..... It'll never fvcking work

[Hazard]

A big problem is with how people vote. There is no "big picture" to the individual person.

One guy runs and says he's going to cut education funding...... He automatically loses those votes even if he has a solid plan in place. People want what best suits them and not as a whole.

One guy says he's going to fix welfare and guess what..... The highest turnout ever by welfare recipients will happen.

It's goes on and on and unfortunately...... Idunno how the fvck we can fix it

[Hazard]

You are 100% correct...... Teaching IS a service. You aren't guaranteed an education when you are born.

Is it fair for those without kids to be required to pay a school tax? No..... I don't believe it is.

My kid will be attending public school so the money I paid into it will be going to her education.

I also think those with more kids should be taxed higher. Why should one person pay the same amount as another that has 5-6 kids?

Teaching is a service and it'd be wrong for us to think the teachers "owe" us an education.

We need to tread lightly on these topics in the real world. One wrong move could spurt a "shortage" of any one profession down the road.

[Rwy]

A big problem is with how people vote. There is no "big picture" to the individual person.

One guy runs and says he's going to cut education funding...... He automatically loses those votes even if he has a solid plan in place. People want what best suits them and not as a whole.

One guy says he's going to fix welfare and guess what..... The highest turnout ever by welfare recipients will happen.

It's goes on and on and unfortunately...... Idunno how the fvck we can fix it

Its what angle can we take that we can say we believe in and keep the most votes. Thats how the office is won nowadays or obamas second term was bought through hand outs to people

[ZenFitness]

While I understand your frustration..... This is why a lot voted for Obama. People were pissed off at republicans.....

When people vote they should take EVERYTHING into consideration and not vote for the opposite at who they're mad at.

I think that's a bit simplistic. I'm also looking at the current situation as overriding any campaign platform. This is all about money from private interests groups, plain and simple. The funding for this current shutdown was traced to $200 million largely from a few groups like the Koch family. The public is fed a bunch of BS from some idiot "tea party" puppeteers, and now we're heading into uncharted dangerous waters because we are letting a few wackos call the shots with their pocketbooks.

The republicans didn't "lose" per se. They just signed something without reading much about it. Not just them..... Democrats also. I don't believe this healthcare issue is strictly political..... There ARE democrats against it and republicans for it

They sure as hell lost. This isn't about Obamacare - this is about the fact that the current Congress has the votes to pass the new debt ceiling but a few nutjobs won't allow Congress to reconvene to vote on it. Instead they will let things go into default, and that is going to be a HUGE shitstorm. They lost and are throwing a very dangerous fits to keep the private money headed their way. I'm sick of this shit. I won't vote for it.

I'm furious about this. I'm even more furious because my "conservative" friends buy into all this crap that is fueled by private interest groups. This has NOTHING to do with good economics or sound financial decision making. ZERO. The Democrats aren't much better, but this "tea party" bullshit needs to be cut off like a bad case of genital warts.

Something like this:

News Anchor Completely Loses It For The Best Possible Reason

/end rant

[lovbyts]

Honestly do you really believe our little pee shooters stand a chance against our militaries weapons????

Sure the nations people might have the numbers. The person with the biggest stick will win. So the government would simply only need a few hundred thousand soldiers to still control this country.

That's the stupidest reason to own firearms in this day n age. Sure your point was valid 2-300 hundred years ago. But no longer is that statement true.

Gee they seem to be doing a pretty good job against all our superior weaponry in places like Afghanistan with their little pee shooters, aren't they?

They wont/wouldn't do air strikes due to the amount of damage it would cause in or near the cities.
I suspect around 50% of our military would NOT fight with the government and take their weapons with them giving us access to much of the same weaponry.
I dont think if it came down to that it would be easy by any means for either side.

Its what angle can we take that we can say we believe in and keep the most votes. Thats how the office is won nowadays or obamas second term was bought through hand outs to people

Agreed. A big problem is now days there are more voters than workers and they all expect something for nothing. Soon there will not be enough workers to support all the people believing they are Entitled and the house of cards will fall.

[Flagg]

Hazard il answer your question a bit later as I'm off to work now, but guys,.don't kid yourself that an angry American nationalist with a gun has anywhere near the training these jihadi
!sts buttons get. Tanks, chemical weapons, etc >> people

[lovbyts]

Hazard il answer your question a bit later as I'm off to work now, but guys,.don't kid yourself that an angry American nationalist with a gun has anywhere near the training these jihadi
!sts buttons get. Tanks, chemical weapons, etc >> people

Remember a lot of gun owners or enthusiast are not simple office workers but many are ex military, hunters, sportsmen so it's not like they have no training or knoledge like some weekend warrior who puts on a leather jacket and gets on a Harley. No offense to anyone who rides but owning a Harley does not make you a member of the Hells Angels.

[moseley2004]

We have free health care and it works. Our taxes go towards it. I can't see how Americans don't want that. Instead when something goes wrong u can't afford to pay it either die or end up paying the rest of your life. Now that's some fkd up shit. You guys would prefer to have guns and not worry about health care for all!!! I can't get over the fact that you guys still go on about something written over 100 years ago. Times change people

[AD]

We have free health care and it works. Our taxes go towards it. I can't see how Americans don't want that. Instead when something goes wrong u can't afford to pay it either die or end up paying the rest of your life. Now that's some fkd up shit. You guys would prefer to have guns and not worry about health care for all!!! I can't get over the fact that you guys still go on about something written over 100 years ago. Times change people

I got a feeling obamacare is not so simple and straightforward. ...

[lovbyts]

I got a feeling obamacare is not so simple and straightforward. ...

Yeah not quite. Its more complicated than out tax code if you can imagine. It takes over 4 hrs to go through the sign-up if it works right and you are computer savvy. So far people are getting sticker shock. If you already pay for Insurance you cost will doube for a family of three as well as you deductible. This is all on top of the taxes already paid and many hospitals, clinics arwnt covered.

Its estimated 2x as many people won't be insured in the next year due to obamacare. Its not going well so far.

[DSM4Life]

Yeah not quite. Its more complicated than out tax code if you can imagine. It takes over 4 hrs to go through the sign-up if it works right and you are computer savvy. So far people are getting sticker shock. If you already pay for Insurance you cost will doube for a family of three as well as you deductible. This is all on top of the taxes already paid and many hospitals, clinics arwnt covered.

Its estimated 2x as many people won't be insured in the next year due to obamacare. Its not going well so far.

Stop getting your information from Fox news.

[ppwc1985]

Some of the stuff floating around is false. I received an email from my insurance which is Cigna. The family plan price is going down, but the single person plan is increasing by 15%. So it figures, single ppl always get screwed.

[austinite]

Billionaire couple donates $10 million to Head Start programs closed by U.S. government shutdown - U.S. News

[RaginCajun]

Billionaire couple donates $10 million to Head Start programs closed by U.S. government shutdown - U.S. News

I wonder if they have a hot daughter?

[lovbyts]

Stop getting your information from Fox news.

Why? Should we believe CBS or NBC who is owned by the administration? Even they are saying a lot of the same thing now that people are actually TRYING to muddle their way though it. It was CBS yesterday saying people are having sticker shock.

[lovbyts]

I wonder if they have a hot daughter?

If they/she is a billionaire who cares if she is hot or not?

[austinite]

I think I'm going to prorate my taxes and exclude payment for the days the government is shut down.

[AD]

Imagine this. If the US enjoys a budget surplus every year, would anyone still care how they spend the tax dollars?

[austinite]

Imagine this. If the US enjoys a budget surplus every year, would anyone still care how they spend the tax dollars?

I would. Most won't though.

[AD]

I would. Most won't though.

Just look for any other countries that has budget surplus and follow what they do. That should solve the problems

[Honkey_Kong]

Just look for any other countries that has budget surplus and follow what they do. That should solve the problems

If you raise taxes enough, you'll have a budget surplus. Problem is, the national debt will still be increasing since we can't even make the minimum payments on it. If Congress had our interests at heart, they'd make the most of this "shutdown" and disband the federal reserve.

[lovbyts]

Get rid of all the entitlements and that would put us in the green in no time.

Recent study showed that welfare recipients (mothers) are having increased stress due to not being able to afford disposable diapers so they want to start paying for that also. WTF, haven't they heard of cloth diapers and washing them???

[ZenFitness]

I can't imagine a single mother on welfare has lots of free time to wash diapers. Just sayin'. My wife and I tried cloth diapers for a good year with our firstborn, and it is quite a bit of time and effort.

In my mind, Medicare/Medicaid needs an overhaul (my 100% healthy and wealthy father-in-law just got an eyebrow lift funded by Medicare when he could have paid for it himself). We also need to cut military spending, and that may include pensions depending on what we can really afford.

First and foremost though is getting money out of politics. Shit ain't gonna change without that as a first step. All the crap we are in is due to wealthy private interests... rich getting richer. It has nothing to do with public interest.

[lovbyts]

I can't imagine a single mother on welfare has lots of free time to wash diapers. Just sayin'. My wife and I tried cloth diapers for a good year with our firstborn, and it is quite a bit of time and effort.

In my mind, Medicare/Medicaid needs an overhaul (my 100% healthy and wealthy father-in-law just got an eyebrow lift funded by Medicare when he could have paid for it himself). We also need to cut military spending, and that may include pensions depending on what we can really afford.

First and foremost though is getting money out of politics. Shit ain't gonna change without that as a first step. All the crap we are in is due to wealthy private interests... rich getting richer. It has nothing to do with public interest.

So what is a single mother doing since she isnt working and who says she is single? Gee I guess before pampers were created babies must have been naked 24/7? No it's just people are lazy now and anything they want and dont have they expect the government to pay for which in turns means we, the working class pay for it.

I agree with the above especially with government/private interest.

[Hazard]

We have free health care and it works. Our taxes go towards it. I can't see how Americans don't want that. Instead when something goes wrong u can't afford to pay it either die or end up paying the rest of your life. Now that's some fkd up shit. You guys would prefer to have guns and not worry about health care for all!!! I can't get over the fact that you guys still go on about something written over 100 years ago. Times change people

Have you read the entire thread?

First off..... If you live in America and you NEED a procedure..... You can't be denied. You won't die. Stop spreading false information. You also can sign up for charity care and you won't have to pay for it either.

I'm not saying it doesn't cause a tax burden on us...... But the program is there.

Medicade is available to those who qualify...... Many people just don't both. I know a few myself.

Americans don't prefer socialized healthcare because we were founded on the principle that every man can make a future for himself and he is the only one responsible. Why should one rich man have to pay for 100 people who don't work?

The thing is...... It works in Europe. The American people have been taught to take advantage of EVERYTHING. Socialized healthcare will just be one more thing that gets abused until it can't sustain itself anymore.

[ZenFitness]

So what is a single mother doing since she isnt working...

It varies state to state and what we mean by "welfare" (there are a number of "welfare" programs). Some states require employment to receive what we consider general "welfare".

[Hoggage_54]

Imagine if welfare recipient Mitt Romney was elected tried to implement something similar to Obamacare if he was elected? Oh wait, he did in Massachusetts... And the Tea Party loved him.