Established truths and controversial claims

[DocToxin8]

Yeah, I had some free time and free rain of the library when I was in grad school so I would jump onto the chem and medical journal databases and look up a lot of info on all the different compounds. All these drugs were designed for a purpose. T-bol for athletes, deca for burn victims and bone mineral loss, sustason for muscle wasting ext.
There is tons of info floating around on the medical journals about it all. Plus having a background in Chemisty. Knowing how binding affinity works as far as chemical agents are concerned shaped my philosophy on stacking and how it's probably not as productive. For example a standard 500mg T and 500mg deca cycle is no more better for my gains than just running 400mg of deca alone, plus I get virtually no sides.

I think the concept of synergy is really more a function of total androgens used not their additive effect to each other. I could be terribly wrong on this, but so far, I have never seen a compelling piece of evidence/s to sway me otherwise.

I run 350-400mg/ week of deca when I run it.

I use to run a small amount of T usually 100-125mg which still have me sides. My tolerance for T is really limited to 125mg a week or below. Now I don't run any at all.

....

Yes we do, I knew it would be a thread highjack if I said something but i couldn't help myself lol

Sorry OP, I will say I'm a huge fan of Deca. It's probably a very close second to only Tren E.

Ok, new thread here.

[DocToxin8]

I think you over evaluate what we actually have proved by studies on AAS.
When they began developing synthetic versions of testosterone and saw they behaved differently than testosterone in various ways, chemist developed 100s of steroids , most of which were never studied in humans.

AR affinity in itself has also proved to be more difficult to measure when studies revealed that agents with low affinity for the androgen receptor still caused a significant increase in AR mediated gene regulation.

There's also a lot more to AAS and AR mediated myogenesis.
Like systemic IGF1 secretion, local IGF1 turnover and on EPO mediated effects, etc.

When different AAS were developed they tried them in several different conditions. Yes Deca can be used in burn victims, so can many other AAS. Deca is also used for osteoporosis in women.
Stuff like TBOL were an exception, as it was actually designed (or taken into use) for athletic improvement. But this was under a regime that had a state sponsored doping plan. Other AAS has also only been used for athletic performance, but this is either because they were AAS that didn't have any medical use and has advantages when it came to testing.
THG is perhaps the only steroid that we know was developed with the intention for performance use and beating drug tests.

Anyways, intresting take you have, but even if you just look at the muscle tissue and says deca is enough, you're neglecting all the other physiological effects T has in the body.

We should make a new thread.
This was intresting.

My response to some of the above.

[DocToxin8]

Basically what started this is that Musclescience said he runs deca only cycles.

I'm very intrigued to hear more about this.

[Bio-Active]

Basically what started this is that Musclescience said he runs deca only cycles. I'm very intrigued to hear more about this.

he is special.... I remember when I was younger I tried running a cycle without test and it was the worst experience of my life!

[Cuz]

Oh fck its hard enough to run a 19 nor WITH test wouldnt even attempt lol

[Bio-Active]

This will turn out to be a great way thread! I'm subscribing. We are all so different in the way we react to compounds. We're like myself I get no sides from test or 19 Nors

[hammerheart]

If your interested, as a TRT patient I'm having an hard time with Test. I totally hate it and if it wasn't for the need of E2 I'd drop it.

Sides are hard to tolerate, I might list them if you wish, they develop over the course of hrs once T levels raise, so genomic AR activation isn't at play here, and neither would be non-genomic since neither with Tren nor primo I have been able to reproduce them. My suspects for the moment go to DHT metabolites 3-alpha/beta-diol.

[Bio-Active]

If your interested, as a TRT patient I'm having an hard time with Test. I totally hate it and if it wasn't for the need of E2 I'd drop it. Sides are hard to tolerate, I might list them if you wish, they develop over the course of hrs once T levels raise, so genomic AR activation isn't at play here, and neither would be non-genomic since neither with Tren nor primo I have been able to reproduce them. My suspects for the moment go to DHT metabolites 3-alpha/beta-diol.

were are your t levels at?

[MuscleScience]

So what's the truths and the controversial claim?

[hammerheart]

were are your t levels at?

These are bloods as of September, 75mg TE 2x weekly, no AI.



We don't really know where tT lands but can't be much higher, yes this is above therapeutic range, but I don't aromatize enough at physiological levels. Lowered to 60mg 2x weekly since. Lately I've added 10mg winstrol daily in order to get rid of that SHBG, so I can get away with lower TRT dose, and as expected, I felt the sides coming from raised T levels.

[hammerheart]

So what's the truths and the controversial claim?

Always run Test as a base?

Have you ever looked into 5-AR inhibitors to see if those helped with sides from Test?

[Bio-Active]

These are bloods as of September, 75mg TE 2x weekly, no AI. We don't really know where tT lands but can't be much higher, yes this is above therapeutic range, but I don't aromatize enough at physiological levels. Lowered to 60mg 2x weekly since. Lately I've added 10mg winstrol daily in order to get rid of that SHBG, so I can get away with lower TRT dose, and as expected, I felt the sides coming from raised T levels.

and what sides are you experiencing?

[MuscleScience]

Always run Test as a base?

Have you ever looked into 5-AR inhibitors to see if those helped with sides from Test?

Yeah, but if I need all this other shit just to not have sides, what's the point?

[Bio-Active]

Yeah, but if I need all this other shit just to not have sides, what's the point?

have you ever ran labs to see were your test levels are when your running other compounds with no test along side?

[NACH3]

Defo subbed

I will also chime in with we are so different from one another this thread proves that and also gives some insight to those(me included) who have not ran cycles back when test wasn't the base of each cycle.

Although that's not how I'd run one or advise someone to do so... I'd like to hear why some can and can't handle test and what their experiences(good/& bad) were like, as well as their gains/sides etc?

[NACH3]

have you ever ran labs to see were your test levels are when your running other compounds with no test along side?

@ MS -
- Do you prefer running a 'no ester' compound or still letting it build up in the blood stream... or do you prefer short or long esters and does it matter for you since no test base?

[hammerheart]

and what sides are you experiencing?

Apathy, lethargy, foggy brain, cognitive issues, anhedonia, fatigue, muscle hypotonia w/weakness, no pumps, hands/feet paresthesias, freezing cold hands/feet, and other symptoms suggestive of poor circulation.

Limbs go numb easily, arms feel like burning if only I dare to raise them above shoulders level, sometimes I get a feeling of lightheadness so strong I'm unable to stand upright.

Yeah, but if I need all this other shit just to not have sides, what's the point?

Does any of the above sound familiar to you?

Of course I get the point, but your not a TRT patient, please understand I have to deal with this for life. Were yourself to get on TRT, what would you do?

[InternalFire]

subbed

[Bio-Active]

Apathy, lethargy, foggy brain, cognitive issues, anhedonia, fatigue, muscle hypotonia w/weakness, no pumps, hands/feet paresthesias, freezing cold hands/feet, and other symptoms suggestive of poor circulation. Limbs go numb easily, arms feel like burning if only I dare to raise them above shoulders level, sometimes I get a feeling of lightheadness so strong I'm unable to stand upright. Does any of the above sound familiar to you? Of course I get the point, but your not a TRT patient, please understand I have to deal with this for life. Were yourself to get on TRT, what would you do?

maybe your testosterone levels are to high

[DocToxin8]

So what's the truths and the controversial claim?

(I'm sorry but I'm very busy today, will contribute more tomorrow, glad to see the thread going.)
There's always some "established truths" about everything from training to diet to AAS. Like, use test as base, use an AI, do PCT with nolva and clomid but not hCG , which should be run during cycle, etc.

Dont do oral only cycles, etc.
I will jump back in tomorrow guys!

[Vash the Stampede]

It is by no means an established truth that testosterone should form the base of all cycles. Personally I've met dozens of people who ran DECA only, Tren only, Winstrol only etc.

They survived and turned out fine for the most part, but there is something we know about physiology and endocrinology that tells us that what they did is a bad idea.

I have and always will recommend testosterone as your base for any cycle. On this matter I will not compromise.

The "test base" vs "no test" debate will go on forever. I just hope people will make more educated decisions with regards to their overall health and well being.

[MuscleScience]

have you ever ran labs to see were your test levels are when your running other compounds with no test along side?

No, I have not. I've just always assumed it would be next to zero.

@ MS -
- Do you prefer running a 'no ester' compound or still letting it build up in the blood stream... or do you prefer short or long esters and does it matter for you since no test base?

I like long esters, I do not like pinning often and I prefer that my hormone levels stay more balanced and not as fluxed like it can with short esters.

Apathy, lethargy, foggy brain, cognitive issues, anhedonia, fatigue, muscle hypotonia w/weakness, no pumps, hands/feet paresthesias, freezing cold hands/feet, and other symptoms suggestive of poor circulation.

Limbs go numb easily, arms feel like burning if only I dare to raise them above shoulders level, sometimes I get a feeling of lightheadness so strong I'm unable to stand upright.



Does any of the above sound familiar to you?

Of course I get the point, but your not a TRT patient, please understand I have to deal with this for life. Were yourself to get on TRT, what would you do?

I don't get any of those sides other than some anxiety maybe. Most of my issues are estrogenic in nature when I run test. I of course run letro or Adex etc when I ran test. Something changed in me after a few years and I gradually started being able to tolerate T less and less. All my pre and post cycle labs always came out ok.

I think my issues were helped to some extent of not running short 12 week cycles I started doing 15-20 weeks cycles. Again, there is no point in my mind to do a short cycle like that. Tank your natural T production, go off and run a pct just to do it over again in 10-12 weeks anyway.

[Bio-Active]

No, I have not. I've just always assumed it would be next to zero. I like long esters, I do not like pinning often and I prefer that my hormone levels stay more balanced and not as fluxed like it can with short esters. I don't get any of those sides other than some anxiety maybe. Most of my issues are estrogenic in nature when I run test. I of course run letro or Adex etc when I ran test. Something changed in me after a few years and I gradually started being able to tolerate T less and less. All my pre and post cycle labs always came out ok. I think my issues were helped to some extent of not running short 12 week cycles I started doing 15-20 weeks cycles. Again, there is no point in my mind to do a short cycle like that. Tank your natural T production, go off and run a pct just to do it over again in 10-12 weeks anyway.

it would be interesting to know because of it was at zero then estrogen would win the battle at the mammary gland

[marcus300]

No, I have not. I've just always assumed it would be next to zero.
I like long esters, I do not like pinning often and I prefer that my hormone levels stay more balanced and not as fluxed like it can with short esters.
I don't get any of those sides other than some anxiety maybe. Most of my issues are estrogenic in nature when I run test. I of course run letro or Adex etc when I ran test. Something changed in me after a few years and I gradually started being able to tolerate T less and less. All my pre and post cycle labs always came out ok.

I think my issues were helped to some extent of not running short 12 week cycles I started doing 15-20 weeks cycles. Again, there is no point in my mind to do a short cycle like that. Tank your natural T production, go off and run a pct just to do it over again in 10-12 weeks anyway.

Can I just confirm that you are male and not female?

[MuscleScience]

Can I just confirm that you are male and not female?

I think I confirmed who the better Male is when I was in Europe last there sugar pop...lol

[marcus300]

I think I confirmed who the better Male is when I was in Europe last there sugar pop...lol

I think you will have to explain that one to me again then because haven't a clue what your going on about mate?

[MuscleScience]

I think you will have to explain that one to me again then because haven't a clue what your going on about mate?

Marcus, you always say that shit when I got you backed into a corner. Then you pretend you're mad at me, then I feel bad, then I PM you saying I'm sorry, then you say something in British about English humor. And then the cycle repeats itself. I'm not falling for it this time brah...

[marcus300]

Marcus, you always say that shit when I got you backed into a corner. Then you pretend you're mad at me, then I feel bad, then I PM you saying I'm sorry, then you say something in British about English humor. And then the cycle repeats itself. I'm not falling for it this time brah...

I still haven't a clue what your talking about, I'm not mad or backed in a corner ( you never have and never will) I simply asked what you meant because I haven't a clue what your on about when you confirmed you was a male last time you was in Europe. No need to get all hurt mate I didn't understand your answer but it may just be a language barrier hey lol lol doesn't matter dont worry about it

[MuscleScience]

I still haven't a clue what your talking about, I'm not mad or backed in a corner ( you never have and never will) I simply asked what you meant because I haven't a clue what your on about when you confirmed you was a male last time you was in Europe. No need to get all hurt mate I didn't understand your answer but it may just be a language barrier hey lol lol doesn't matter dont worry about it

cheers

[Marsoc]

Basically what started this is that Musclescience said he runs deca only cycles.

I'm very intrigued to hear more about this.

Me too I love solid and even meditated intell on stuff related. Such as wht the compunds were invented for. T-bol...is tht similar to why Dbol was invented.

[hammerheart]

I don't get any of those sides other than some anxiety maybe. Most of my issues are estrogenic in nature when I run test. I of course run letro or Adex etc when I ran test. Something changed in me after a few years and I gradually started being able to tolerate T less and less. All my pre and post cycle labs always came out ok.

I think my issues were helped to some extent of not running short 12 week cycles I started doing 15-20 weeks cycles. Again, there is no point in my mind to do a short cycle like that. Tank your natural T production, go off and run a pct just to do it over again in 10-12 weeks anyway.

Noted... well I get anxiety without enough E2. We are all different. Thank for your answer.

[KINGKONG]

I like MS diff takes on cycles..it's interesting to have a range of opinions esp when it comes from someone who knows there Sh!t..twice in the past I've ran tren with no test after about 2 weeks I run into serious sexual sides and I start getting off balanced emotionally ..I've found a small dose 2-300mg a wk/ min is a necessity for me in any cycle..that's me though we all respond differently to different compounds..

[MuscleScience]

I like MS diff takes on cycles..it's interesting to have a range of opinions esp when it comes from someone who knows there Sh!t..twice in the past I've ran tren with no test after about 2 weeks I run into serious sexual sides and I start getting off balanced emotionally ..I've found a small dose 2-300mg a wk/ min is a necessity for me in any cycle..that's me though we all respond differently to different compounds..

One day I will put it all down on paper. There is a lot to my thought process as far as not stacking or using T. Everyone is only getting a bit and a piece of my rational. Once I am done putting the low back injury thread together. I might work on this some.

[KINGKONG]

One day I will put it all down on paper. There is a lot to my thought process as far as not stacking or using T. Everyone is only getting a bit and a piece of my rational. Once I am done putting the low back injury thread together. I might work on this some.

Good I'll enjoy reading both

[kelkel]

MS do you run HCG during your non-test cycles?

[MuscleScience]

MS do you run HCG during your non-test cycles?

I have in the past.

[kelkel]

I have in the past.

That would make sense to me to maintain at least some minimal natural production.

[hammerheart]

maybe your testosterone levels are to high

If that's the problem then why doesn't tren worse it all? Isn't it regarded as much stronger than Test?

Btw I want to lower it and that's why I'm using winstrol to dial down SHBG.

[songdog]

Defo subbed

I will also chime in with we are so different from one another this thread proves that and also gives some insight to those(me included) who have not ran cycles back when test wasn't the base of each cycle.

Although that's not how I'd run one or advise someone to do so... I'd like to hear why some can and can't handle test and what their experiences(good/& bad) were like, as well as their gains/sides etc?

I would just say every person is different.Some peoples bodies reject certain drugs while others do quite well with them.This is why we tell 1st timers to run a test only cycle to see how their body will react.

[MuscleScience]

If that's the problem then why doesn't tren worse it all? Isn't it regarded as much stronger than Test?

Btw I want to lower it and that's why I'm using winstrol to dial down SHBG.

My T is at the low range of normal. Has been ever before I started AAS. That is why I decided to go on. I always seemed to have trouble recovering from workouts, low energy, mental fog and all that. I was to young when it was discovered and no MD would put me on TRT. Even though I had both symptoms and confirmtive tests to back up their diagnosis to anyone. Finally I decided to try it and loved it, loved how I finally felt normal and loved how I could finally lift without some silly injury popping up over time.