String Theory<====

[symatech]

Im curious to know if there is anybody on this board who is into string theory; the hypothesised (and much anticipated) merger of General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics. Supposedly, if the theory is proved correct, it will no doubt be a "Theory of Everything" and the most mystifying and elusive properties of our universe will be unfurled before us.

As for myself, I'd like to think the theory will one day be accepted and used profoundly, but I hesitate to call it a "Theory of Everything." Heres why: I firmly believe that the usefullness of string theory will be beyond what even the most prominent string theorists have dreamed. However, I also believe that there is a certain element of the universe which we are not meant to understand. I refuse to accept the notion that there isn't anything which can't be fully comprehended simply by utilizing a theory.

So basically, Im interested to know how many of my fellow AR members believe that science can solve anything given the proper tools; and how many think that there is a mystic property to the universe which will never be understood. As for myself, I believe in the latter. What about you???


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Symatech

[palme]

There are some things that the human mind cant understand no mather how hard we try.

[mammoth]

Originally posted by symatech
However, I also believe that there is a certain element of the universe which we are not meant to understand.

Yeah, I agree! Anna nicole smith is one confusing biatch!

I refuse to accept the notion that there isn't anything which can't be fully comprehended simply by utilizing a theory.

I smell a religous debate coming on!? j/k

I agree to a certain extent with you. You can apply theory to anything. Whether or not that theory has scientific evidence to back it up is another question. Technology over the years has allowed us to expand upon and sometimes even debunk the so-called infallible theories that were based on scientific knowledge that was generated using our ever-growing technology. I truly believe that we will never now if we have "hit the nail on the head".

Politics unfortunately have too much involvement in the process as well. Despite what most people will say, our country was founded upon christian beliefs. You might ask what does this have to do with the "Theory of Everything"? Well to alot of people the "Theory of Everything" lies within the boundaries of religion which, in the most part, cannot be explained through the use of scientific theory. Therefore I don't think that there will ever come a time in which everybody will agree that there is a "Theory of Everything".

I myself believe that science can explain everything. I just think that we haven't advanced our knowledge far enough to cover the most intricate details. Someday though, our scientists will have a valid theory with a scientific backing. And when that day comes......Hold on to your britches, cause we will see a drastic change in this world!

What the hell do I know though! It's just my opinion.

[Strut99GT]

*brain starts to turn to mush*
Well, I tend to believe that almost everything can be described/defined by science. I think evolution happened. Before that, the big bang happened. Before that, there was a bunch of random shit floating around in space. Before that, there was some other random stuff floating in space that caused the future random bunch of stuff floating in space. But if you go back far enough, at some point, there had to be some sort of cause that "caused" the universe. To me, that's "God," which for me basically explains that one thing that can't be explained which is beyond our realm of comprehension.

[Umberto]

Science is limited and not exact. It is ever expanding. Period
Theories must be looked at from a larger frame of reference
Examples:

For thousands of years people believed the world was flat, science at the time proved it. Now we know it is square. J/K its round

People believed up until a hundred years ago that acceleration due to gravity was 9.8 m/s2 and science proved it. Now it is know that Gravitational acceleration is different everywhere in space. And all objects exert gravitational forces on one another. formula is.....
F= m1m2G/d2
On the other hand the curveture of space in Einstien's spacetime frame may explain gravitation.

People also thought that Entropy could decrease. But they did not include a larger frame of reference in their theory. You can decrease entropy in a segment but by doing so you increase the overall entropy of the system. It is now proven that The entropy of the universe is always increaseing.

Our minds are limited so therefore science is limited, because it was created out of our minds. As we theorize,we theorize from our limited frames of reference. Science is great for real world purposes, but not for explaining Truth.

[mammoth]

Well put Umberto! As humans evolve <-- I mean that in the intellectual sense, we will always come up with new theories as well as improve upon older theories.

I would have to disagree about the inability for science to explain truth. Science can explain alot of things through visual representation. Take electricity for instance. You can easily explain the existence of electricity through the use of scientific methods. That goes the same for chemical reactions. Hell, we all should praise the fact that science gave us JUICE!! This whole board is a testament to that there is truth in da juice!

While science can (IMHO) explain some things, there are alot of things that cannot be explained through the use of science. Although I don't think that means that we will never be able to unravel those mysteries.

[TheDfromGC]

can somebody refresh me with what the string theory is? think i have an idea but not really clear

[LewdTenant]

A Grand Unification Theory...not in my lifetime.

Lewd

[Terinox]

Leaving God out of it, if science DID answer everything, then we would be done. There would be no point in even living anymore. It would be like we found out the "meaning of life." The whole point of life is to keep going and keep exploring. If one day someone just turns to you and says "well that's it, we've solved everything," then what on earth would we do?!?!?!?

However, I don't believe that this is done by God (which keeps us going), so I mean i'm not getting into it in a religious way, just saying, there is no way (at least not anytime soon) where we will solve all the theories of this universe.

Oh, also, I must mention I have no freaken clue what the string theory is...i just thought I'd give my two cents anywho

[Big Rush]

trippy...

[jeffylyte]

now when people refer to "the theory of everything" or "a unified theory" they do not in any way mean to try to explain the reason for being, who put us here, why our (one of many possible) universe came into existence when it did, or anything like that.

It is just an explanation for the behavior of subatomic particles and forces between them. that is all. its a merging of electromagnetism, weak nuclear force, strong nuclear force, and gravity.

saying this is somehow a testament (or disavowal) of god or religion is like saying the same when galileo said that the earth revolved around the sun, or when we discovered the first planet, or when one day we find life (even something like bacteria) existed on another planet. It just is.

Modeling why a neutrino changes flavors or using QED and QCD is just our way of explaining HOW our universe works not WHY our universe is.

[Umberto]

I also dont want to get into the religous thing. But what happens if you discover an all-encompasing theory? What happens then?
How did it all start? Where did the essence of physics (mass, energy) come from? Everything in this universes has a beggining and end.
Was there nothingness before? Where did this matter that has supposedly made the big bang come from.
If you take everything down to its elemental root, it has a beggining or a creation.
Before all of these there must have been a great void, a
Can you imagine a great voidness? its not black, quiet or dark. NO, none of these because they dont exist in nothingness. No thoughts, ideas, life. No physics, gravity, velocity, light, entropy, ect. Scary, huh?

There had to have been something!!
Our human minds have the ability to reason. To discern. We cannot imagine nothingness. We know that there has to be a reason for everything. A begining and an end. Call it what you will but there has to be somebody else in control. A creator. All powerful. Above Laws of physics. An everliving powerful being who created time, physics, love and all we will ever see and things well never see or know. Someone who is not constrained to any law but his own will. That my friend is God.

What does it profit a man to know the mysteries of the universe and have not love?
He realizes that he is nothing and alone.
We shall all return from the dust we came from.
Science cannot explain love. The kind of love that sacrafices. No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for a friend.

SEEK TRUTH

[symatech]

Well I am very pleased with the responses to this thread. I must admit I had my doubts when I first posted but now Im thirlled! I think that everybody has made excellent contributions and that makes me happy

Umberto: You may find it interesting to know that when the newtonian foundation for gravitational attraction F=G M1M2/r^2 was tested at very small distances it failed. Where it failed Eintseins equations of General Relativity succeeded. However, for our purposes it works because the scale we are talking about was so small, that it's nearly impossible to detect experimentally.

This brings me to another point: Is it possible that there could be numerous ways of explaining phenomenom in our universe? For our purposes on earth, we can use either Einsteins equations or Newtons and they Both Work!! And if they work they work, end of discussion righ? or wrong?

[symatech]

Originally posted by jeffylyte
now when people refer to "the theory of everything" or "a unified theory" they do not in any way mean to try to explain the reason for being, who put us here, why our (one of many possible) universe came into existence when it did, or anything like that.

It is just an explanation for the behavior of subatomic particles and forces between them. that is all. its a merging of electromagnetism, weak nuclear force, strong nuclear force, and gravity.

saying this is somehow a testament (or disavowal) of god or religion is like saying the same when galileo said that the earth revolved around the sun, or when we discovered the first planet, or when one day we find life (even something like bacteria) existed on another planet. It just is.

Modeling why a neutrino changes flavors or using QED and QCD is just our way of explaining HOW our universe works not WHY our universe is.

Well said bro. I agree with you completely. Even if string theory (or actually M-theory, a merger of the 5 string theories..) Is somehow proven (which wont be soon unless some sort of Super Particle accelerator is manufactured) We still wont understand OUR place in this world except on a subatomic level. And that says nothing about our purpose, or origin etc. Thats why i like it so much, It solves so many unanswered questions but still leaves a greater mystery.

[symatech]

Originally posted by Khull_Khuum
can somebody refresh me with what the string theory is? think i have an idea but not really clear

Sup bro. In a VERY small nutshell string theory goes as follows:

The most elementary particles of our universe are composed of tiny "strings" which are like bands of energy. These strings vibrate as they travel around. Their vibrational patterns in turn, dictate the mass, force charge etc. of the elementary particles. Theroetical Physicists have used string theory to tremendous success (much of the theory is mathematically proven!) to solve hitherto inexplicable mathematical and physical endeavors.

Thats the very basics right there. Since its birth, string theory has undergone several "revolutions" as physicists like to call them. WHich has modified the theory in several ways. The first revolution i think was the realization that there are actuall 5 theories and it introduced supersymmetry, and the second revolution merged them all together through M-theory via duality.

hope this helps
like i said this leaves a lot left to explain...much more than our bandwidth allows but id be happy to elaborate if you wish

peace

[Umberto]

Symatech,
Im a little confused
These "strings" are not really string shaped, are they? What I understand the word string is used as an example. These "strings" under different tensions produce what we see as matter, gravity, energy, light, ect.? right
If so are all of these string interconnected? in a multidimensional fashion?
Under different conditions they become or represent different phenomena

They make up subatomic particle, which make atomic particles, which make molecules and so on.

Am I on the right track?
If so what determines their ("strings) behavior? what is the tension?

[symatech]

Ok, you just opened a big ass can of worms.

The second revolution in the theory has stated that theses strings are actually "branes" little membranse which act independently from one another. Furthermore, there are different types of branes to corespond to the different dimensions (11 to be exact in the theory 10 space and 1 time) I believe that 6 of these dimensions are actually 'curled up' in one another in what is known as a CALABI-YAO shape. I cannot represent this on a message board because it has only two dimensions and requires 6 but i will try to find a graphical representation.

Heres the tricky part: The strings (or branes) are all isolated in these calabi-yao shapes (which by the way are at EVERY POINT IN SPACE!) Now try to imagine the following analagy (sp)

A pipe organ produces sound by pushing air through pipes. The different notes correspond to the different size and shape of the pipes. Now imagine that these pipes are actually calabi-yao shaped dimensions. Like the air probes the pipes, the stings can probe these dimensions. The different ways a string can probe the dimensions dictates is vibrational patterns!!! Futthermore, there are TONS of different calabi_yao shapes which work with string theory, and later on (maybe) we'll discuss how each calabi-yao shape can mold itself into another calabi-yao. SO this would lead to an enormous amount of possible string vibrational patterns.

I will find an excert from a wonderful book on string theory by a man named BRIAN GREENE, his book is called "THE ELEGANT UNIVERSE". He expains it better that I. But it will take me some time to find it so bear with me

As for the shape of the strings (or branes) their shapes differ. Some hyptothesise closed stings (like a circle) others hypothesize open ended strings, and yet others hypothesize the branes (all are able to probe the calabi-yao shaped dimensions) Like i said before the branes are supposedly 1-10 dimensional. Each corresponds to a different dimension.

confused?? let me find some visual and better worded arguments for ya!

hope this is understandable
peace

[Umberto]

Confused I am
But im confident in my intellect that I will learn
I will research.
Might even get a minor in physics
It is incredibly fascinating.

[symatech]

Here is a calabi yao represented in 2 dimensions.

[Umberto]

So everypoint in this 11 dimensional space, including t, so at all times, has like a key hole, of vast possibilities. The strings interact and produce different phenomena. These calibi-yao (spelling?) are infinitely everywhere. If so they have no mass? and are they fixed?? If they exist in every point inspace they have to be fixed?
Weird stuff

No wonder people that study theoretical physics, multidementional math at the higher levels get a little cooky. LOL

[symatech]

Originally posted by Umberto

What does it profit a man to know the mysteries of the universe and have not love?
He realizes that he is nothing and alone.
We shall all return from the dust we came from.
Science cannot explain love. The kind of love that sacrafices. No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for a friend.

SEEK TRUTH

I couldnt agree with you more bro. Very well said!!

[symatech]

Originally posted by Umberto

No wonder people that study theoretical physics, multidementional math at the higher levels get a little cooky. LOL

i hear ya

From my understanding (and i could be wrong) the calabi-yao dimensions occur everywhere including in time. But i wouldnt be surprised if there are a plethora of arguments against (and for ) this. so i cant say 100%.

Their mass (if any) would be far below the plank mass which is a constant i forgot at the moment, i'll look it up later. And the main reason none of the string theory is experimentally proven is that our current particle accelerators cannot probe sub plank length scales. I am told by a professor however, that a larger accelerator is being built (in switzerland maybe??) that is supposed to be able to come close. When its slated to be completed somewhere in the near future, it will be a great (or disasterous) day for string theorists all over the world!

[tolinka]

I'd be affraid to say it to people i know, they would think i'm crazy...so i'm gonna share my opinion with you guys. ill make it short.

I believe that we are as "humans" aren't supposed to know everything. Our mind cant acknowledge all that. I heard some one say before that people have 15 senses and not five. They are aware of their five senses, but they didnt develop the other 10. If you think about it, there are some people in this world that can read minds. Such things are also possible to achieve on a long amont of psychedelics. Dont think i'm bullshitting yall, the indians use Peyote, or Cacti, for spiritual use, so i've heard the Indians in the east ate mushrooms and smoked opium.Yoe hear and see about people that have some sort of powers that others dont. We just dont believe em. Ok enough of the drug talk.
I believe that the whole univeres is connected. That all the things are connected to each other, the live of each other. One cannot exist without the other. Just impossible. Everyting that happandes in this universe is causing a chain reaction that will lead us to somthink, maybe good maybe bad, but thats life.
This are things that cannot be explained rationaly right now. I dont think we are gonna know if its true or not. BNut i believe we will develop to a more intelligent beings and that one day all this will be undesrstood.

Peace

[symatech]

Tolinka: I agree for the most part. I also believe the human mind is a complete mystery to us, and if i could have 1 wish it would be to be able to use and control 100% of my brain. Imagine the possibilities.

As for psychedelics: ive done my share of peyote (mescaline) lsd, shroomz, tried dmt (not sure if it was real though) and i agree, to a certain extent these do open doors in our mind. however i believe some of these doors are bullshit effects of the drug,,,,but some i can just tell are not. they all remain a mystery to me. but thats what makes life fun and worth living isnt it?

peace

[babi]

well there are e few theorys going around and one of them happens to be string,my sister is a cosmologist and she is told me the most make sense theory is the five dimensional one,anyway this stuff is quite fascinating and even though im not a scientist when my sister breaks it down for me i am in awe.i think that the goverment should fund the physics more,even though it dont pay offf right away eventually some of this theorys will be proven. and i think science and religion go hand in hand.there is a superpower that created all this miracle and also gave ppl brain to understand it and trying to figure it out how he created it and ofcourse it wont be figured out in a day or year b/c it would be pointless.okn i will stop here b4 going into too much phylosophi

[tolinka]

Psychedelics open alot of doors for you mind. But it also creates alot of bullshit and a vivid view on things which are totallyy uncorrect. Thats why the old wise guys do it under the supervison of of some one on thei "level" of mind.

As for the Science and Religion. I think that if we connect both of them we will learn many things about the universe and how alll of the things work and for what purpose. But for that, the scientists are gonna need to find their spiritual side. Most of the scientists dont have it, or just dont wanna acknowledge that because they thin everything can be figured out by thought and reason. But their is much more then that. This something will be realised in time.

peace

[rldced]

Try explaining a 747 flying overhead to a 3 year old. There are some things not ment for us to understand but for us to just believe. Ever wounder why a flower is so beautiful and smells so wonderful. You must enter the Kingdome of heaven through the eyes of a child (first sentence) were not perfect even kids make mistakes.


Take it for what it is

[symatech]

I find it interesting also that the atoms which we are made of will be recycled throughout the universe for the rest of time. In that way we kinda live forever; and likewise we have lived forever. spooky (or maybye because im stoned )

[symatech]

More to come soon.

[tolinka]

Originally posted by symatech
I find it interesting also that the atoms which we are made of will be recycled throughout the universe for the rest of time. In that way we kinda live forever; and likewise we have lived forever. spooky (or maybye because im stoned )

Maybe thats why the Hidnus believe in recarnation? You think there is a connection?

[symatech]

Im not sure if they believe in reincarnation because of the "sharring" of atoms or because its simply their religious belief. either way its an interesting point.

keep em commin

[tolinka]

My bad, i didnt mean in that way, they believe in it because of "sharing atoms"....I just wanted to make a point that i thought might be intresting... Science/Religion- with the same basic idea, just diffrent analysis of words

[saboudian]

There are tons of theories out there. I think the ones that are most interesting are the ones that Phd's in physics and math come up with on their theory of the universe. I don't think they are meant to be taken serious and are more for laughs and will make u think a bit.
They just use a lot of logic and its like they were just bored so they came up with some stuff.

I remember one i read, talked about the big bang. Now the math part was pretty cool. He proved that space and time did not exist before the big bang. Now its pretty hard to imagine that space does not exist but time does not exist!!! So when there was the "Big Bang", this would mean that not only was space created, but time was created, this would mean that the past, present, and future were all created at once. So then he theorized that if god did exist he would have to live outside of "time". So most ppl imagine that god exists in the present, when in fact he would have to live outside of time itself.

There are tons of these, and they are pretty cool, i recommend that if u get the chance, read any that come along, at the least it will bring a smile to your face.

The one thing i do know is that WE DID LAND ON THE MOON!

[Umberto]

I remember one i read, talked about the big bang. Now the math part was pretty cool. He proved that space and time did not exist before the big bang. Now its pretty hard to imagine that space does not exist but time does not exist!!! So when there was the "Big Bang", this would mean that not only was space created, but time was created, this would mean that the past, present, and future were all created at once. So then he theorized that if god did exist he would have to live outside of "time". So most ppl imagine that god exists in the present, when in fact he would have to live outside of time itself.

WOW!
God must not be constrained by time, or anything. He would have to be all powerful. and omnipresent

[Umberto]

"I find it interesting also that the atoms which we are made of will be recycled throughout the universe for the rest of time. In that way we kinda live forever; and likewise we have lived forever. spooky (or maybye because im stoned )"

Makes you think about what really makes up who we are. Are we just physical matter aranged in a certain way. Or is there more?
If we were created by God. And we do have a spirit. Then that spirit must have to exist outside of space-time when our physical body dies. We go to God where all "physics" laws or laws of nature dont exist. Because he created them for this universe and this reality.

[babi]

well that why its a super power.he dont need any oxygen,time or space!he is the creator!ppl will never be smart enough to find out his looks,shapes or anything connected with him,however he has given ppl the brain to figure out some of his miracles and i am sure a lot more will be found out in the future.as matter of fact our universe is still expending.we know that the atoms split and they become lighter in energy therefore they push further away from each other thus making our universe expendable.we also have a rough idea when our universe was created from measuring the energy in atoms(experimental physics)the real break through is when we find something to travel faster than lights speed to penetrate through a black hole.that will enable us to travel back in time and find out a shitload of things about ourselves.there was a very nive movie about this topic with jody foster in it i forgot the title now.we have come long ways in such little time to where we are now(science wise)and just wait 10 20 50 years its going to get a lot better.

[symatech]

The movie was contact.

As for traveling faster than the speed of light: Special Relativity is based largely on relatavistic speeds. One of Einsteins conclusions, however, was that faster than light speed, or even light speed is impossible to achieve because time would stop for the traveler. Furthermore, the traveler would become infinitely massive and distorted. This does not mean, however, that it can NEVER be done. Never is a strong word and I hesitate to use it. WHo knows one day what may be possible. I can only dream.

As for time travel. Well, this brings up all sorts of fun stuff! The grandfather paradox for example questions what would happen if you went back in time and accidently killed your grandfather. Well if hes dead then you will never be born, and if you arent born then you cant kill him. I love this shit!!!

peace

[clockworks]

hmm, i've discussed string theory a long time ago with a colleague. its sounds far fetched to say the least, but then again, so does quantum computing...

anyways, i'm a scientist here...so to answer your question, i believe humans can achieve anything. i guess i'm a humanist. i have faith in our species...

and i hate it when girls think i'm narrowminded for thinking that. i hate it when pretty girls buy into a bunch of drug induced philosophy bs and think that its so deep and whatever. chances are, i've thought about everything they have thought of in a much deeper and meaningful sence while sober. oh, but i stray form the topic...

-- clocky baby

[Babyweight]

My mind is spinning here....now I don't know what to believe anymore.. This by all means is the best thread ever!... I love it...

Babyweight

[TheDfromGC]

my thoughts exactly babyweight