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  1. #1
    BigMike J's Avatar
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    Religion and Steroid use

    The purpose of this thread is not to start an argument, pissing contest or anything of that nature that has to do with christianity.

    I would like insite from some of you christian bro's who regularly use gear. Some christians would oppose such use saying that is a sin to god or whatever. I myself am not religious so i am not bothered by this burdon of conscious, however, my little brother has recently gave his like to "the lord", and is not a true blue bible beater. I can find nothing wrong with this except for the fact that everything he does or thinks he thinks is a sin. Before his turnover he was amped and ready to begin his first cycle, but since his new found love for the lord he has had a change of heart. That is fine.

    I was thinking about talking to him about this because i know he really wants this cycle if not for the whole "sinful act". I don't believe to be a sin, but what the hell would i know im not a son of god. Do not misunderstand me i am not trying to talk him into doing something that he is against, but i must debate my issue with him.

    The question
    So my question for you christian bros is, How do you condone your own use,(assuming that some of you do use) and do you believe it to be a sin?

    Why do you care anyway? Good question. I don't know if i do care so much as i just want him to have his facts right. I mean he has not even read the bible yet, but yet his pastor lets him preach in their church about stuff he does not really know about.

  2. #2
    Money Boss Hustla's Avatar
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    There has to be separation of church and state. State says that AS are illegal...therefore most church goers would say that it is not Christian to use AS. They cannot provide you with a valid reason except that AS are against the law. But they are legal in other countries!? So do AS users in Greece get into Heaven and Americans don't!?

    I think it's more of a soap box issue. People standing on their soap boxes making uninformed judgements.

  3. #3
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    There's really two ways you can look at anabolic steroid use . The first way is vainity. You're doing something for looks, which God would not like.

    The other way you can look at it is that you're respecting your body to the utmost, and your body being god's creation, you are doing him justice.

    Either way, if you feel it's a sin, and you repent, the lord will forgive you.

  4. #4
    LORDBLiTZ Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Money Boss Hustla
    There has to be separation of church and state. State says that AS are illegal...therefore most church goers would say that it is not Christian to use AS. They cannot provide you with a valid reason except that AS are against the law. But they are legal in other countries!? So do AS users in Greece get into Heaven and Americans don't!?

    I think it's more of a soap box issue. People standing on their soap boxes making uninformed judgements.
    I agree with you money. I go by gods laws first. The only reason AS are illegal is because of "politics"....and god doesn't play "politics".

  5. #5
    BigMike J's Avatar
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    Not trying to start an online debate, but i would like the opinions of christian steroid users.

    Money, Chris are you christians?

    With all due respect LordBlitz i am not looking for your opinion if you are not christian, however if you are christian i would like your opinion. Not trying to be a dick.

    This has to be from a christian point of view, because i would like to bring my bro to this site and let him read a little about what other christians have to say about the issue, and if he still feels the same that is fine with me just so long as he does know a little bit more about what he's talking about

    Money you bring up an intresting point about the legality of steroids in the US. It is for this reason that i believe my bro has based his decision not to do it now.

  6. #6
    LORDBLiTZ Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by BigMike J
    Not trying to start an online debate, but i would like the opinions of christian steroid users.

    Money, Chris are you christians?

    With all due respect LordBlitz i am not looking for your opinion if you are not christian, however if you are christian i would like your opinion. Not trying to be a dick.

    This has to be from a christian point of view, because i would like to bring my bro to this site and let him read a little about what other christians have to say about the issue, and if he still feels the same that is fine with me just so long as he does know a little bit more about what he's talking about

    Money you bring up an intresting point about the legality of steroids in the US. It is for this reason that i believe my bro has based his decision not to do it now.
    I am a christian! Just remember that anything excessive ( eating, drugs, booze, jacking off ) is a sin in gods eyes.

  7. #7
    Money Boss Hustla's Avatar
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    Ask your brother this...more instead of being concerned with AS...maybe he should think about the bigger issues in church. ie) buggering and raping little boys

    There are evil men in the church...and I think AS is far from the top of the list of what's wrong in the church today.

    In today's world...the church is just another hungry corporation.

  8. #8
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    Thaks for the replies guys.

    Lord i did not mean to offend you bro i am very sorry if i did.

    Peace out

  9. #9
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    You beat me to it, CA. Vanity - a sin. Now I am not the most exemplary of us, but I went to religious private schools almost my entire life - so I at least know where the various churches stand on issues.

    Secondly, I would say that since your body is considered to be a "temple of God" (because he lives within us - perhaps an iterpretation of the soul for some?), doing AAS could and would by many be considered to be desecration of the body, and thus the temple. This would include the act of administration and the effects, positive and negative. I have heard this one applied to tattoos, and the extension is logical. On the other hand, I know many christians who interpret this differently also, and have no problem with tattoos. They say that just like many of the old laws, they are outdated. For instance, the thing about not eating pork or other meat from other animals considered to be unclean was a health precaution. Eating it could kill you or make you very sick. Today we are much more sanitary, and the meat from these animals poses almost no health risk. The same is true for marking or decorating the body.

    Thirdly, it could be considered substance abuse, like alchoholism. But even Jesus drank in moderation. So that one is more of a gray area.

    Fourth, it is illegal. God tells us to obey the law of the land, except where it conflicts with his law. That one is easy.

    There are probably many other facets to this arguement, and many permutations to the ones already presented. But these are probably the biggest ones. Anyway, if he doesn't want to do AAS, that's OK too.

    T

  10. #10
    LORDBLiTZ Guest
    No worries Bigmike

  11. #11
    Testify's Avatar
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    Wow, I guess I took quite a while to type that. Looks like you guys have already touched on most of these. Oh well . . .

  12. #12
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    I am a devout catholic to answer your question. Christian isn't really the issue though, because God made the rules. I would say that Jews should be allowed to reply as well.

  13. #13
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    Chris i myself an agnostic i don't deny "god" nor do i accept that there is one. If my questions can apply to Jews then of course i would like to hear from them too. I mean they are all about the bible too, right?

    I will not pretend to know anything about the bible other then what i learned in bible school. I am not an authority on this issue therefor i cannot offer anything to my brother. If he does not want to use that is fine i have already said that, i would just like for him to know what he's talking abooot. How can he smoke weed and say," weed is from the earth...." and all that bullshit. It makes me mad, but i bite down and say nothing just for the sake of argument. I think that it's hypocritical of him to say that kind of shit, but i could be wrong.
    Last edited by BigMike J; 09-20-2003 at 02:25 AM.

  14. #14
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    Test it's all good bro, thanks.

  15. #15
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    [QUOTE=BigMike J]
    The question
    So my question for you christian bros is, How do you condone your own use,(assuming that some of you do use) and do you believe it to be a sin?
    QUOTE]


    Well, you're going to have a difficult time finding a single authoritative answer to this question, because there are as many differing opinions out there on religious issues as there are buttholes.

    Some folks can cite bible passages that can be construed to condemn coffee drinking, card playing, shaving, tattoos, dancing, long hair on men, doing anything fun on Sunday, and others can cite bible passages that allow polygamy, slavery, snake handling, even genocide. In the end, it all depends on what you want to beleive; you can find passages in the bible that can be construed to permit or prohibit just about anything you can imagine.

    Speaking as a former christian,
    --Tock

  16. #16
    BigMike J's Avatar
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    LOL TOCK that's why i just say the hell with religion.

  17. #17
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    Biology rules!!!!!!! Just say yes to AS

  18. #18
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    What i would reccomend to your brother...read the bible. Let him get his own feelings for how he interprets the bible, then let him make up his own decisions. I consider myself an agnostic deist, i'm not sure if there is a god but if there is he has more important things to do than sit in on the someday sitcom everyday. I remember the quote from many years of bible study..."your body is a temple and in it god lives" well in that case 90% of america is sinning at this very instant by being overwight and unhealthy. Taking this term into context i consider us the preachers of this line in the gospel. We may have taken this a step to far but at least we listened. Though the percentage of american christans has increased in the last hundred years the percentage i would consider to be christian has dropped to nearly nil.....it takes alot of gumption to be religous and thats not something society today has....

    oh yes...i allow my AAS use to continue becase it allows me to live my life to the fullest i see fit and therfore use gods gift in the greatest way possible....

  19. #19
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    Someday thanks for the good post bro, My bro is supposed to come over tomorrow. He does not know about this yet, but i am going to sit him down and let him read a little, im sure he will not change his mind and that's ok, but at least he will be a little bit more informed.

  20. #20
    partyboynyc is offline Anabolic Member
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    i just got off the phone w/ God

    he said that he wants us to all look exceptional and fuck lots of girls so steroid use is ok. i asked why he used the word fuck, being all holy and shit like he is, and he said, "my son, i use fuck because no real man makes love these day..."you heard it straight from the man himself!!!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by partyboynyc
    he said that he wants us to all look exceptional and fuck lots of girls so steroid use is ok. i asked why he used the word fuck, being all holy and shit like he is, and he said, "my son, i use fuck because no real man makes love these day..."you heard it straight from the man himself!!!
    Your are special in gods eyes

  22. #22
    Cycleon is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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    I am a Christian and I think my position on gear use is clear. While AS happens to be illegal in the US, so is driving over 55 mph on the freeway, which doesnt bother me in the slightest.

    Too many people focus on outward things instead of on core critical heart issues - and that is directly contrary to God's focus. It is very similar to the pharasees who said - look at all my good works but their hearts were rotten.

    That is not to say that we can do anything - rather IMO he should spend his time in the word and find out from God himself. There are things I used to do that I feel God will not allow me to do anymore and others I may feel that the Lord will permit. BUT IT CANT BE JUST BECAUSE I WANT TO DO IT SO THEREFORE I JUSTIFY MY ACTIONS. If he is really honest with the Lord, God will show him what he should do - NOT the thoughts of other people - and I am betting the things He will want to focus on first will not be gear - but far more important issues

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLEON
    I am a Christian and I think my position on gear use is clear. While AS happens to be illegal in the US, so is driving over 55 mph on the freeway, which doesnt bother me in the slightest.

    Too many people focus on outward things instead of on core critical heart issues - and that is directly contrary to God's focus. It is very similar to the pharasees who said - look at all my good works but their hearts were rotten.

    That is not to say that we can do anything - rather IMO he should spend his time in the word and find out from God himself. There are things I used to do that I feel God will not allow me to do anymore and others I may feel that the Lord will permit. BUT IT CANT BE JUST BECAUSE I WANT TO DO IT SO THEREFORE I JUSTIFY MY ACTIONS. If he is really honest with the Lord, God will show him what he should do - NOT the thoughts of other people - and I am betting the things He will want to focus on first will not be gear - but far more important issues

    Very well put, IM actually struggling right now between what my major is saying and what I was brought up to believe. Someday I will figure things out for myself but i really like what you wrote here. Good post brotha,
    PBB

  24. #24
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    I think he should follow his heart. We all encounter and make decisions on various things in our life for reasons. If his heart says that he should not use gear, then there may be a long term plan for him that using gear may conflict with. Some of the guys on here that are Christian and use gear may have a physical presence that will allow them to communicate with someone on a more personal level that may lead that person to Christ one day. I know that it can be interpreted a variety of ways from scriptures in the Bible, but when it comes down to it I believe you know what is right and what is wrong in your heart.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLEON
    I am a Christian and I think my position on gear use is clear. While AS happens to be illegal in the US, so is driving over 55 mph on the freeway, which doesnt bother me in the slightest.

    Too many people focus on outward things instead of on core critical heart issues - and that is directly contrary to God's focus. It is very similar to the pharasees who said - look at all my good works but their hearts were rotten.

    That is not to say that we can do anything - rather IMO he should spend his time in the word and find out from God himself. There are things I used to do that I feel God will not allow me to do anymore and others I may feel that the Lord will permit. BUT IT CANT BE JUST BECAUSE I WANT TO DO IT SO THEREFORE I JUSTIFY MY ACTIONS. If he is really honest with the Lord, God will show him what he should do - NOT the thoughts of other people - and I am betting the things He will want to focus on first will not be gear - but far more important issues
    Wow Cycleon I have even more respect for you.
    With that said, I agree with most here, I know a guy that is very very religious in my church, a real man of God, and he uses AS, and is a huge mofo. But he doesn't do it for vanity, he simply does it because it makes him feel good. He also enjoys competing. My opinion on this is if you are a religious person and being religious means to have an open mind to things. Knowing your limits and not allowing AS to control you or to treat like a "God", is not a sin. I may or may not use AS to get an "edge" for the younger guys I have to compete with.
    I don't abuse things nor do I have any bad habits. Believe me when I tell you my life is a juggling act to keep a balance in all areas. Mentally and physically. I do believe that one has to have both types of balance to be completely happy. Working out, staying healthy, makes me feel very good about myself. Going to church, meditating, praying, whatever I consider mentally satisfying helps sooth my mental aspects and challenges. Therefore IMO being happy and balanced in both areas is the key to happiness.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by someday
    What i would reccomend to your brother...read the bible. Let him get his own feelings for how he interprets the bible, then let him make up his own decisions. .
    --------------------

    I'd agree with that, but along with reading the book for himself and forming his own opinions, it would be helpful to have some critical analysis from a variety of viewpoints:

    1) several different translations and paraphrases, unless he's fluent in Hebrew and Greek.
    2) several different bible commentaries
    3) a few "History of the Bible" to understand where it came from (he will enjoy how the emperor Constantine figures into this, around 325 AD)
    4) a few critical analyses of the Bible

    Keep in mind that what he reads is going to be a translation (or even worse, a paraphrase) of the original texts. The original Hebrew language didn't use vowels, so the entire old testament had to be translated from stuff like:

    Kp n mnd tht wht h rds s gng t b trnsltn (r vn wrs, prphrs) f th rgnl txts. th rgnl hbrw lngg ddnt s vwls, s th ntr ld tstmnt hd t b trnltd frm stff lk:

    So you can appreciate the ease at which the original intent became mangled by translation, and further mangled by paraphrase.

    Case in point: I Chronicles 20:3 is accurately translated in the King James Version (and a few others) to read: "And he brought out the people, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon." In the New International Version (and a few others) it's paraphrased to read something along the lines that "He brought out the people and GAVE them saws and harrows of iron and axes and put them to work. This was done, essentially, to down-play the mass-killing of innocent women and infants by Jehovah.

    So, keep in mind that what you read in any particular version of the bible may not be quite what the original author had in mind.


    He could boogie down to just about any used bookstore and find a set of bible commentaries for relatively cheap . . . keep in mind that these come in lots of flavors, from an ultra-conservative legalistic approach to laid-back easy-going liberal. The best one I've found is "The Interpreter's Bible," but it's kinda pricy; I paid $150 for my 2nd hand 12-volume set.


    "Who Wrote The Bible" by Richard Elliott Friedman can give you a pretty good explanation of the bible's history . . . explains how there were originally 4 versions of the Old Testament books, and how and why they were combined when different Jewish groups merged (explains the extensive word-for-word duplications of entire chapters of scripture, too). Explains where the notion of a bi-polar deity came about (before 700 BC, there was only Jehovah; during the Babylonian captivity Jewish theology adopted the Zoroastrian notion of the Good god (Ahura Mazda) and the Evil god (Ahriman) who constantly battle in Heaven), and mentions also how there are 15 or so other religions whose Saviors were (a) born of a virgin (b) put to death on a cross (c) rose from the dead.

    Oh yeah, this is the stuff they don't teach you in Sunday School.


    You can get all the pro-bible information you want by going to a christian church, but if you want to understand the BIG picture, ya gotta be familiar with what the bible critics have to say.
    Thomas Paine (one of the founding fathers of the US of A) wrote a book, "The Age of Reason" in the early 1800's (maybe late 1700's) while serving time in the Bastille (French prison) . . . the 1st and 2nd sections are ok, but when he finally got a bible in his hands he was able to cite chapter and verse and tore it apart pretty well. I think it's posted on the Internet somewhere, a yahoo search ought to turn it up.
    A corporate lawyer, Robert Ingersoll, in the late 1800's wrote several books critical of the bible. A particularly good one is "Some Mistakes of Moses . . . it picks up where Thomas Paine left off.
    If you want more of this sort of stuff, you can get info from the various infidel or atheist web sites . . . but this ought to be plenty to get you started . . .



    It took me years to figure out that when you go to church or to a bible study, they only tell ya what they want you to think. They don't dabble in the hard stuff, like they'll tell you Moses wrote the 1st 5 books of the Old Testament, but if you notice at the end of the 5th book, it talks about what happened after Moses walked away-alone-from the Isrealites, but doesn't explain how, if he was all by himself, how it came to be included in the rest of the book. Ask the question, "Who wrote that part?" and the answer is usually, "I don't know," in which case you're dealing with a text that is essentially anonymous, possibly nothing more than a forgery.
    Of course, Moses never existed anyway (check the Egyptian archeological records) so the whole controversy is moot . . .

    Anyway, when ya check into any religion, if you accept everything they tell you as true, you're gonna be screwed just like if you go to a used car lot and accept everything the salesman tells ya as true. Do your homework, or as Ronald Reagan once said of the Soviet Union, "Trust, but verify."

    Good luck,
    --Tock

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Money Boss Hustla
    Ask your brother this...more instead of being concerned with AS...maybe he should think about the bigger issues in church. ie) buggering and raping little boys

    There are evil men in the church...and I think AS is far from the top of the list of what's wrong in the church today.

    In today's world...the church is just another hungry corporation.
    I took a trip this weekend up to jacksonville .......and we were having a discussion about religion and she told me that down town jacksonville has a huge Southern Baptist church that has 4 Atm's installed.................I think your right by saying that church is just a business......

  28. #28
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    CYCLEON, PTbyJason, Tock thank you for your responses, i wish i had something i could ad to this thread, but i do not. I do have a question for all of you who have read and responded.

    Do i come off as trying to manipulate my bro into doing something that i know he's not intrested in anymore? If so maybe i should reword or perhaps even rethink this whole thing and just leave it alone.

    I just want him to know what, and why he's making this decision. It was like automatic for him, but i still think it's like Money Boss said, it's illegal so don't do it. Why not? I don't know or claim to know anything about the bible i have read it but that does not mean i understood it. I don't know what the hell im trying to say. I guess i should just leave it alone, but alot of you guys have gave great responses that i think he should at least read.

    The whole thing just urks me because he does not know anything about the bible, but like tock pointed out alot of seemingly bible educated people don't either.

    peace out.

  29. #29
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    My bro still has not made it. I wonder where the hell he is.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigMike J
    Do i come off as trying to manipulate my bro into doing something that i know he's not intrested in anymore? If so maybe i should reword or perhaps even rethink this whole thing and just leave it alone..
    =======================

    Pretty much, yes . . .

    Lots of people get involved with churches not because of the theology, but because of the social outlets it provides. I'm gonna guess that your brother has someone at the church that is giving him lots of attention, making him feel wanted. That's gonna be hard to beat, especially with a stack of emotionless information.

    If you put all the stuff I mentioned in his hands and say, "You need to read this," yeah, you'll come off as being, um, intrusive, and he'll be thinking that you need to mind your own business. Whether or not you let that stop you is pretty much up to you. If he was getting involved in something weird like Scientology or the Moonies or some other brainwashing cult, would you let 'em go? IMHO, there's not that much difference between what goes on at the First Babtist Church and a mind-manipulating cult.

    Sure, there's lots of reasons why you should intervene (like his long-term best interests), but there are lots of reasons why you shouldn't intervene, like his freedom to do whatever he wants to do.
    If it was my brother that was in the clutches of theology, I'd probably give him a copy of something like the quiz at
    http://www.ffrf.org/bquiz.html
    every now and then to encourage some independant thinking (which is largely discouraged in most churches nowadays). You could also learn some of the basic problems with the bible, and mention it to him from time to time . . . stuff like where Moses told the Egyptian Pharaoh to "Let my people go!" and then Jehovah "hardened his heart" so that he would refuse the request, and then he punished Pharaoh for saying "No;" that show Jehovah to be an unreasonable sadistic god, acting more like a demon than a loving, fair-minded deity (certainly not the sort of thing I'd consider worthy of worship). Or check into the reasons why Egyptian archeologists have never verified any part of the bible story as told in the Book of Exodus, and present this to your brother, ask him what he thinks about it.
    Chances are, though, that his emotional needs will win out over Reason, and his mind will be lost to religion. But, since it's your brother, it's worth a try . . .
    --Tock

  31. #31
    Cycleon is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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    big Mike - Tock is obviously entitled to his opinions but is also obviously coming from the point of view of an active hatred of what he thinks is God and any religion - most likely someone hurt him pretty bad - but anyway, that type of opinion is not going to be something your brother listens to and would only alienate you from him.

    Again, you want what is best for your brother - becoming a Christian starts with an acute awareness of sin and it may be that he is super sensitive about all this now. One thing that I would encourage you in is to let him find out for himself - encourage him to study the word and pray on his own - dont just take some preacher's word for what he says - even Paul told us to "test every spirit to see if it is of God" - if someone is preaching the truth, surely they will not mind examination against the word.

    Then let him go through this - he may decide that juicing is ok after a bit when he really begins to get a grip on his relationship with God - he may still decide no - but it is his choice to make.

  32. #32
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    My god doesn't mind, then again when you're your own god, you can pretty much get away with anything

  33. #33
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    CYCLEON, first off, you have my respect for thew words you have spoken here. I agree that he needs to read the good word and talk to god and get to know him on his own terms. I have not been to church in years, ut I still carry the Lord with me everywhere I go. Hell I talk to him on a daily basis more than I do anyone else. With everything I've been going through I almost lost my faith. I hated God and everything he has done to me. But I talk to him and I tell him how much I hurt for what he has allowed to happen to me, but I know he has a plan and something good will come from all this. To me religion is not just Sunday services, God is not someone we think of once or twice a week. All of it is something we should carry in our hearts at all times. Like I said, why wait until ed or before you eat to pray? I mean when I drive to work I may talk to Him, just talking not asking for this or asking for that. I like to think that besides my Lord and Savior that He is my friend that walks with me everywhere I go. Your ro needs to find his own relationship with God and find his own path on religion. To me the only way AS becomes a sin is if you abuse it, ut that's just my .02.

  34. #34
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    I'm Christian, and I justify my self... well I'm crazy. I have weird morals. I will have sex, use a condom and am not married, but will not pleasure myself. 10 years of Christian school will do that to you.

    I drink, do drugs, but will not get into a serious fight with someone, because that is wrong. I dunno, I'm messed up.

    Last year, I was high, and my priest walked into the store. I told him I wasn't feeling well, but I know, that he knew, that I was "out to lunch."

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdtr
    My god doesn't mind, then again when you're your own god, you can pretty much get away with anything
    Hmm, I'm interested in your religion. Do you have any pamphlets, or videos?

  36. #36
    LORDBLiTZ Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by BIG TEXAN
    CYCLEON, first off, you have my respect for thew words you have spoken here. I agree that he needs to read the good word and talk to god and get to know him on his own terms. I have not been to church in years, ut I still carry the Lord with me everywhere I go. Hell I talk to him on a daily basis more than I do anyone else. With everything I've been going through I almost lost my faith. I hated God and everything he has done to me. But I talk to him and I tell him how much I hurt for what he has allowed to happen to me, but I know he has a plan and something good will come from all this. To me religion is not just Sunday services, God is not someone we think of once or twice a week. All of it is something we should carry in our hearts at all times. Like I said, why wait until ed or before you eat to pray? I mean when I drive to work I may talk to Him, just talking not asking for this or asking for that. I like to think that besides my Lord and Savior that He is my friend that walks with me everywhere I go. Your ro needs to find his own relationship with God and find his own path on religion. To me the only way AS becomes a sin is if you abuse it, ut that's just my .02.
    Very well said!

  37. #37
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    Well my brother came by today and i told him about this thread. He told me he's not intrested in what other people have to say but he sure as fuck is stuck up that preacher dudes ass. He has not even read the bible, but yet he does accept what that preacher has to say. Im glad im agnostic, i think i might be an athiest.

    Thanks for your post guys

    The diffrence between you all and my bro is that You all atleast have some knowledge about what your beliefs and he does not. How can somebody believe in something they know nothing about, don't tell me it's faith either.

    Tock i appreciate the honesty

    Peace out

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    i don't know why i let this upset me, it's his life? I guess it could because he now says he can't come over as much because of "how i am" What the fuck does that shit mean? Like im a bad influence or something. Fuck his ass.

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    Cycleon is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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    you have to ask him - to make sure EVERYTHING he gets is from the Bible - and can give you chapter and verse - DO NOT LET SOME CONTROL FREAK PASTOR MIND WASH HIM - there are MANY good ones but there are a number of bad who are wolves among sheep....

    Simply ask him to show you what the church says in the word - tell him you are interested but not in what men say - I mean, since they are basing a whole religion on a book, surely it is a good thing to read it and prove any doctrine or rules from it - not just people making them up - so ask him to show you what they believe in the Bible - tell him you do not want some pastors word for it but rather for him to show you - if the principle isnt in there, then it isnt from God - and that is all too often with chalatins pretending to be God's annointed - but again there are many who are and these will be delighted to back up anything they say.

  40. #40
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    [QUOTE=CYCLEON]you have to ask him - to make sure EVERYTHING he gets is from the Bible - and can give you chapter and verse - DO NOT LET SOME CONTROL FREAK PASTOR MIND WASH HIM - there are MANY good ones but there are a number of bad who are wolves among sheep....
    QUOTE]
    --------

    Y'know, I really prefer to hash out this sort of controversy over a friendly plate of steak & eggs . . . it's a lot easier to get to the crux of the issue in person, IMHO. But, we do the best we can on AR with words . . .


    Yes, as Cycleon intimated, I've been disappointed in the Bible and the church. But not God, really; IMHO, there might be a god, there might be a whole slew of them, I really don't know. I don't really care what other folks opinions are on the subject, so long as their opinions don't lead them to mess around with the life I want to lead.

    But even though I'm somewhat questioning about the existance of a god, I can say that I have checked out the Christian Bible, and I can confidently say that it cannot be "the perfect, inerrant, communication from the creator of the universe to us weasals here on earth" because it's full of impossibilities, contradictions, failed prophecies, false stories (Moses, for one), and advocates shit like slavery, women as 2nd class citizens, capital punishment for sabbath breaking & etc.
    Aw, crap . . . I know I'm not about to change anyone's mind about this; people will beleive what they want to beleive for as long as it suits 'em. But for the folks reading this who haven't been ensnared in the tentacles of a church or cult, all I can say is, verify whatever they tell you. If they can't prove that Krishna or Budda or Quetzecoatl or whoever rose from the dead, you really have no obligation to accept the claim as true. There are lots of crazy organizations out there eager to make new drones to generate more $$$, and they'll tell ya whatever you want to hear.
    . . . All I can say is, save yourselves a lot of grief and hassle, and make cults and churches prove their claims, then take that "proof" to other experts in related fields, and see how it checks out. When they tell you something like Noah's Ark had two of every animal, check it out. Figure out
    (1) how big was Noah's Ark? (about 2 1/2 acres of deck space)
    (2) how many animals were on board? (2 of the "clean" animals and 7 of the "unclean;" there are something like 20,000 species of mammals alone, so that would make at least 40,000 animals, along with thousands of reptiles, birds, and some say dinosaurs, too, all squeezed into 2.5 acres)
    (3) how long were all the animals shut up in the ark? (14 months)
    (4) how much food and fresh water did they have to take along to feed those thousands of animals for 14 months? (you figure that out)
    (5) if the Ark landed in the Middle East, how did the Kangaroos get to Australia (they don't swim)?
    (6) Is this story a work of fiction, or is it actually true?

    Whether or not I have or don't have a personal antipathy for the Bible is beside the point . . . whether or not the Bible is or is not the message of the universe's creator is. From what I've seen (I used to teach sunday school and bible study, almost became a preacher), it is a bunch of crap, and I hate to see people waste their lives trying to use it as something to pattern their lives after.
    It's just a bunch of crap.
    Other folks are more than welcome to disagree, but when they tell me there's something "wrong" with me 'cause I'm a "sinner," watch out 'cause those are fightin' words, as far as I'm concerned. There ain't nothin' in the bible that I have any obligation to comply with; I can (and do) break the 10 Commandments with astonishing regularity (and with a clear conscience), and need moral guidance from it as much as I need moral guidance from the Koran, L.Ron Hubbard's "Dianetics," Mary Baker Eddy's "Christian Science" crap, or from any of the loathsome moral derelicts masquarding as "God's Messengers" on Sunday Morning TV.

    Good thing I'm toning this down, eh?

    To sum this all up . . .
    Yes, your bro has the right to pursue whatever bs someone offers him, and yes, it would be unethical if you tried to "deprogram" him because everyone has the right to beleive what they want to beleive. On the other hand, you can still challenge his beleifs; probe his opinions and point out the inconsistancies, then ask why he still beleives in stuff that makes no sense. The usual response is "I don't know, I just do," so prepare yourself for that.
    But that's about it . . . I hope your bro comes back to his senses, maybe when they start asking for $$$ he will . . .
    Good luck, though . . .
    --Tock

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