The christian crusades 1095-1291.. Are we fighting a Muslim crusade 2000-????

**AbsolutelyLethal** · 11-30-2003, 10:35 PM

The Renaisannce and the Enlightenment did bring Europe out of the Christian fundamentalist disaster. Jews were formerly a forgotten group allowed to practice on their own and perceived as different because they didnt believe in the conforming religious beliefs. The Enlightenment resulted in Jews becoming intermingled in society and finally allowed to have similar education as other citizens. They could not relate because they were not akin to the Christian practices and beliefs of society. Futher excerbating the problem was the feeling of nationalism that arose from The Enlightenment. French Children learned in school that the French ancestors were Gauls and Germans learned they were descendents pf Arminius but how could Jewish children in these countries relate? When push came to shove, identity for Jews began to arise not as national matter but a religious matter. E.g. the Alfred Dreyfuss affair where the Dreyfuss is seen as "not really French, he is Jewish." Jews were Alien everywhere yet home no where. This led to Zionism, the hope for a Jewish Homeland. Eventually, the Jews are granted Palestine which displaces the Arabs living there. Similar to Native Americans in US History except these people have fellow Arab Brethren in other countries who for the most part dont help them out but instead chose/choose to keep them as political pawns in camps.

Everything has a domino effect...

Originally Posted by Tock

===================. Hah . . . the thing that brought Europe out of the Christian fundamentalist disaster was the Renaisannce and the Enlightenment. My guess is that Islam needs to find and go through this for itself as well.

***Cycleon*** · 12-01-2003, 01:55 AM

Truth is it wasnt the Elightenment or the Renaisannce that ended the dark ages, it was the Reformation as in the Protestant Reformation - when people realized that the Bible and a relationship with God were not owned by Rome but were available for everyone. THAT is what brought about the "enlightenment" that changed everything.

**Tock** · 12-01-2003, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

Truth is it wasnt the Elightenment or the Renaisannce that ended the dark ages, it was the Reformation as in the Protestant Reformation - when people realized that the Bible and a relationship with God were not owned by Rome but were available for everyone. THAT is what brought about the "enlightenment" that changed everything.

===========

I dunno . . . my vote still goes to the Enlightment/Renaisannce. Even after the Protestant Reformation, they were still doing crazy things like Protestants killing Catholics and Catholics killing Protestants, and Protestants were still burning people for witchcraft and heresy and etc. and I daresay there are still a lot of protestants around today who would be glad to revive those old traditions.
The Enlightenment, on the other hand, got people to question things in general, to ask "How do you know that what you know is true?" There ain't never been any religion that encouraged its people to ask those sorts of questions.
--Tock

**Animal Cracker** · 12-02-2003, 11:08 AM

My vote goes to ICBMs

**Animal Cracker** · 12-04-2003, 05:40 AM

Peaceful Muslims: This are just some random death tolls courtesy of the IWCT/Hague:
Bangledesh -Paki War- 1 million dead
Uganda's Idi amin slaughter -300K
Lebanese Civil War - 100K
Indonesias Invasion of East Timor -200k
Iran-Iraq War- 1.5Million
Sunadese Cili War-100K
Liberia - 40K
Algeria- 60K
Balkans- 270K
Rwanda- 800K
Russian Chechnya- 20K
Attack on NYC-3k
Still there is the Taliban...The Hamas..Ireaeli/Arab (6day war)..First WTC attack..The MArine Barracks in Riyah Saudi Arabia..he dirty traitor "Beltway Sniper"..Ol' Sgt. Akbar with the grenades in the tent incident..among others...All in the Name of the ********* Mohammad and the Madness of the Koran! Sounds like a Crusade against civilization!

***Cycleon*** · 12-04-2003, 10:20 AM

bamma - had to edit that just a tad for any of our muslim readers - but honestly, when he engaged at age 6 and "consumated" his marriage to Aisha at age nine when he is 55 years old, its hard to take much other view of it

**Animal Cracker** · 12-04-2003, 10:24 AM

Agreed..on both issues!

**rambo** · 12-04-2003, 10:28 AM

Come now. You can't count all CIVIL wars as a tally against other religions/races Bamma. And where do you read that Mohammed consumated at age 9? That's just ridiculous. After all this reading in this thread you have to take into account that if you added the number of deaths in the name of organized religion you would find Christianity and Islam to be somewhat equal, and that of course everyone beats up on the Jews. You have to look at things with an outside perspective, and avoid the propaganda. It's similar to listening to Cytosport slam a line of products by Optimum Nutrition, and then quoting all the negative things about what they says and assuming they are impartial. It's very necessary to seperate fact from fiction, and I don't know many nine year olds with that kind of libido.

***Cycleon*** · 12-04-2003, 12:26 PM

This is the authority I would best use but there is wide agreement on this - keep in mind that Islam allows marriage as soon as the girl begins to menstruate - this is still practiced in Iran and other Islamic countries and in Mohammed's time would not have been thought of as especially strange to have a young woman go into an ailing king (though they were normally at least well in their teens). Keep in mind a hadith is considered tradition and not holy writ as it were, but followed much the same, like the Jews' torah and talmud

FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH BUKHARI

I have used Bukhari's Hadith, translated into English by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, at the Islamic University in Medina. Bukhari's Hadith is considered authentic by the majority of Sunni Islamic scholars. It is second to the Quran in terms of importance. The central figure to approve and sign the translation is Dr. Amin Al-Masri, Ph.D. Cambridge University. He is the Advisor and Head of the Sharia Dept., at the College of Sharia and Islamic Studies in Mecca.

From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:

"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""

Bukhari vol. 7, #88:

"Narrated Urwa: "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""

Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:

"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

**rambo** · 12-04-2003, 02:35 PM

IN CAPS BELOW

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

This is the authority I would best use but there is wide agreement on this - keep in mind that Islam allows marriage as soon as the girl begins to menstruate - this is still practiced in Iran and other Islamic countries and in Mohammed's time would not have been thought of as especially strange to have a young woman go into an ailing king (though they were normally at least well in their teens). Keep in mind a hadith is considered tradition and not holy writ as it were, but followed much the same, like the Jews' torah and talmud.
JUST ON A SIDE NOTE, HADITH IS REPEATEDLY CHANGED BY MODERN CENTRAL FIGURES KNOWN AS AYATOLLAHS TO REFLECT CURRENT TIMES. I.E. KHOMEINI INTERPRETED HADITHS FOR HIS FOLLOWERS IN ORDER TO MAKE THEM RELEVANT. THAT IS WHY POLYGAMY AND CHILDHOOD ENGAGEMENT, WHILE RELEVANT DURING THE PROPHET'S LIFE DUE TO THE GOAL OF SPREADING ISLAM THROUGH MULTIPLE MARRAIGES, IS NO LONGER ACCEPTED THROUGH THE INTERPRITATION OF THE AYATOLLAHS.

FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH BUKHARI

I have used Bukhari's Hadith, translated into English by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, at the Islamic University in Medina. Bukhari's Hadith is considered authentic by the majority of Sunni Islamic scholars. It is second to the Quran in terms of importance. The central figure to approve and sign the translation is Dr. Amin Al-Masri, Ph.D. Cambridge University. He is the Advisor and Head of the Sharia Dept., at the College of Sharia and Islamic Studies in Mecca.

From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:

"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 7, #88:

"Narrated Urwa: "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""

Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:

"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

Good Post Cycleon, I was wrong on his wife. Only thing I can say about that is it was a cultural norm at the time. But nonetheless, I need to brush up on my theology.

***Cycleon*** · 12-04-2003, 03:04 PM

True enough hadith customs can change but the truth is that throughout the Islamic world, they havent really changed much at all - MANY countries still do it today.

A note on Aisa, how would you like it if your best friend came and told you he wanted your 6 yr old daughter to marry?:

Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

**rambo** · 12-04-2003, 03:07 PM

Depends on if he was a big shot prophet. Or maybe a casting director

I don't know all these things seem so ridiculous in our society, but were the cultural norm 100's of years ago. Makes you think.

***Cycleon*** · 12-04-2003, 04:55 PM

I have a feeling old Bakr didnt have a lot of choice in the matter

All I can say is THANK GOD for the protestant reformation - and though I would be loathe to admit it Brittish imperialism - for it was they who spread it - and that has largely allowed US influence to permeate as much as it has.