So its a simple question. Are we ?
So its a simple question. Are we ?
The truth is that they attacked first but we went and kicked their ass and we had the pope apoligizing to them.
WHAT for, they are in a crusade against us.
Its never their fault, during antiquity it was the Mongols, then the Ottoman and now the west, in 1000 years it will be these dogs of infidels Aliens!
bah same ole!
Man I don't know, just saw some disturbing news yesterday. I was watching CTV News (Channel 8 Toronto Rogers Cable) and they had footage from Iraq, and I must saw it was quite disturbing.
Showed American soldiers raiding home after home, throwing men on the ground, and you could see them dragging men out of their beds, and these men were all shocked and scared to death. You could also see their wife and kids screaming and crying for the soldiers to stop. Also there was a scene with the soldier throwing an Iraqi civilian to the ground, and putting his foot on his back, and poiting his rifle at his head. This is just their attempt to show their power, I really really don't see how that helps the Iraqi people. Is this what it has come down to???
They even interviewed a soldier, and he said that they found "several guns" in the peoples home?!?!?!?!?!!?
SO WHAT?!? Hell I know people on AR who have MORE guns then those civilians, I really really don't get this. Muslim Crusades? Who knows, very likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terinox
Media propaganda!
:elephant:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terinox
Terninox, I don't know if it's a show of power, it could be that each of those soldiers had lost a brother in arms. It is a war so tensions run way past high. There is no good whatsoever to come from any war.........but in for a penny, in for a pound.
I had read a story where pilots of a downed chopper were pulled from there wreckage, wounded already, and the children crushed their heads with rocks.............can you imagine such a thing? Horrors of war..............there are no winners..............only dead.
My personal opinion, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone...................turn the whole place into a sheet of glass. Like I said, I am sorry if it bothers you.
I gotta respond to you terinox....
This same thing has been happening for years.. Iraqi soldiers pulling people outta thier homes.. but they didnt stop there... they would shoot the men and rape the women.. and sometimes also shoot the childern. They would torture people for no reason.. .well no apparent reason anyway. If you think the old way was better than now...
And did you also see the recent footage of the Iraqi's dropping catured soldiers off 2 story buildings and other sick twisted crap?? I havnt seen anything like that in the US , which makes me glad I can sit here and type on AR and live my life without fear of someone coming in my home and killing my family.
Of course not. We are fighting against terrorists, not Muslims. The majority of terrorists just happen to be Muslims. However, these Muslims practice an extreme form of Islam called Wahabbism. It was began in Saudi Arabia, and is primarily practiced there. There are very few Wahabbi Muslims in other Islamic countries. People who practice other forms of Islam are largely supporters of America, with the exception of Palestinians. Also, we are not going after the terrorists as christians. We are going after the terrorists as christians, jews, muslims, etc. People of all religions are helping us in this war. Have you already forgotten the battle in Kosovo from a few years ago. It was America and her allies protecting the Bosnian Muslims from the Serbian Christians.
The terrorists try to make it about Islam so the Muslim community will support their efforts.
I don't like the motivation behind this war with Iraq,but I support our brave young men and women fighting there,and I agree with jugg tention can run high when you see a brother killed,any so many are each day....Someday I wish all would listen to the words of John Lennon...and give peace a chance....just my .02..DB
With all due respect, it is hardly a "simple question". By "we", are you referring to the United States, the western world, the Christian world, the Judeo-Christian culturally based world, or some other amalgam (formal or informal) of these aforementioned 'groups'? Any selection of one over another certainly impacts the answer to a large degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer
The one thing many people dont understand is that Osama Bin Ladan and all those "muslims" arent true muslims. According to the Koran, they are supposed to spread the word of Islam through all means. But it also says that they cant hurt woman and children. Islam is actually a peaceful religion. What they are doing is terrorism, not Islam.
I dont want to start anything but I am just stating an opinion.
Yeah bro, totally agree. Nothing good ever comes out of it, just tons of dead people :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Juggernaut2148
Darn, I give that answer 2 thumbs up!!!!! and a pink elephant :elephant: and a dancing banana :banana: to boot - that is textbook in its clarity - that kind of stuff will get you a press secretarys job - good stuff!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Death
Not yet . . .
But let enough US Generals comment that "Them Muslims are worshipping false gods" and stuff like that, and we'll be on our way.
those guys are protecting their asses over there. ANYONE is a thret.......women, children it doesnt matter they will kill you just as quick............
the prophecies of revelations are comming true day by day.........hope everyone knows where they are going
I guess if there IS a god.. i'm going to hell for being such a skeptic.. looks like free will is a double edge sword. Oh well, heavens a bore and way too far.
===============Quote:
Originally Posted by PurePower
Oh please . . .
--Tock
Before I continue, I remember three years ago, I did a presentation to a class of about 150 students. The presentation was about " Muslim Fanatism is a Threat to Political Stability and Power". It was a great presentation as I received a "fatwa" from some local "leader". I really liked the 25 moslem protesting at me, saying I was blaspheming, yadda yadda yadda... how it end up? Well a student, was a skin head and member of the KKK, WOW I really liked the 50 guys that came to the univesity with baseballs bats and kicked their ass :D, and the school's security did nothing.....
Ok back to the main subject...
The Muslim, and here I have to say, the "ARABS" since forever have a mentality of "us" VS "them". At first it was the Persians, the Byzantines, the Mongols, the Ottoman empire and then the west (UK/US). They alway blaimed others for their own problems and never looked at their own self to see what was wrong. They alway "whined" about outsiders and foreigner for their decadences, as for them they are "pure". And, please I extend the word pure here! The phenomenon of Muslim nationality began in the 19th century especially in India, Afghanistan and Egypt under British rule and a good part of the Middle-East under the Ottoman rule. Writers such as Al- Afghani and a few others, inspired what could be call "Arab/Muslim" Nationalism...
As my previous point, they alway blaim everyone, except themselve for their own problems. Here I dont have a xenophobe centeric idea, but a common statement written by most Arab scholars. Until the 70's the US was regarded as a good country and a land of opportunity for many Arabs/Muslim. After the Iranian revolution, the Muslim world regarded the US as the "great devil" as it was helping a corrupted goverment that was corrupting the Iranian society. Well, even if the Shah was not really great, it was a better society than now. Anyway, as the US/Persian relations grew, the influence of the American way of life got into Iranian. Here no one really looked at how weak their society was, they blaimed the "satan".
And immediately, the US was frowned upon in the Muslim community. Then we jump to the Palestinian cause, as the US help their little Jewish traitor friend(sorry but a country that sell your high tech weaponry to China is nothing but a friend in my book) it helped to caused them a bad image toward the Arab world. But to say the Palestinian hates the US, hmmmm, nah!!! Too easy.
Kosovo, the original idea of the NATO operation in Kosovo was to help those poor Kosovars. Gimme a ****ing break, they were a bunch of bastard and terrorist and Muslim in the EX-Yugo were lied and cheated by their leader. The Bosnian were the real ass, but controlled the world's image of the world and made looked the serbs like criminals..... Ask Canadian General McKenzie when he was shot at, during a talk with Bosnian leaders. The guy that shot at them, were supposed to be Serbs, but the day after they were escorting the Bosnian officials as bodyguards! Then again the Arabs countries that sponsored the Bosnian Army..... Kosovo had nothing to do to help these people, it was that NATO asked to Yugoslavia to have permission to open a NATO Naval sub base and Milothebitch refused, they kicked him out.... and guess what now?
The Wahabism was a spiritual rennaisance movement, formed in Saudia, but it helped created many new movement into Islam, but in fact it was a rivalry between clans and houses such as house of Sa'ud.
It was a Muslim revival movement and dont associate it with terrorism. It was created by Muhammad al-Wahhab that considered the Muslim period of the 18th centurty corrupted with Pre-Islamic evils.. They were zealous, and see their movement as "cleaner" of evil with their means to act as will, but it would be foolish to call them terrorists compared to the Kharijites(real ones)...
Now people have the idea that terrorism and their supporters are only Muslims or the great majority are. This is really FALSE!!!! Here in the west we dont know how to distinct between, rigourous, zealous, or normal muslim without an etiquette. If a Muslim is considered, fundatamentalist he is a terrorist. This is false. Unfortunately we say that there is million of supporters of Muslim terrorists just because of their religious affiliation, then it would be as easy as to say that All irish from NY and Boston that are IRA friendly are therefore potential volunteers for the "cause".
To end, my delirious night of boredom, Muslim that use God and Jihad to kill and for their own wills are untrue believers and infidels, they use the book for their own mean, like we did christian hundred of years ago. Think clearly, the Muslim society is just behind us on how they act... they had their Golden Age, with the Uthman's period then it went down and their society is adjusting to the world like we did, except they do it, behind us...
and btw bouncer still up for that bet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tock
people will understand one day
In my book the only people who are on a crusade and the REAL danger to world peace are the fundamentalists...
All the hardcore fundamentalist Muslim, Christian or Jew who believe their way is the ONLY way and are willing to kill over it are the problem of this world.
Just my opinion of course... feel free to diasgree
Red
==================Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ketchup
I agree . . .
Back in the Reagan administration, ol' Uncle Ronnie made a guy by the name of James Watt the Secretary of the Interior. After a few years, when people started to notice how anti-envorionment this guy was, his retort was, "Well, Jesus is coming back soon and it won't be a problem then."
IMHO, basing public policy on the Bible is insanity, whether it be for environmental policy, military policy, or foreign policy. Just as James Watt ran his Department by his religious opinions, and just as Nancy Reagan consulted astrologers, I'm sure there are plenty of guys in the Pentagon who conduct their business with one eye in the Book of Revelation. That, IMHO, is going to get the US (and maybe the whole world) in a big mess one of these days . . . some group of generals will get together and opine that they can speed up the day of Armegaddon, and from there, the Thousand Year Reign of Jesus, if they set off a few missiles, get the thermonuclear war started.
And it's all nothing but craziness.
When "The Late Great Planet Earth" (by Hal Lindsey) came out 30 years ago, it startled a lot of people . . . turns out, it was just a bunch of clever speculation written to appeal to people who knew just enough about the Bible to make them think that he (Lindsey) actually knew what he was talking about. Man oh man, in that book he had billions of Chinese marching into the middle east and the Soviet Union beating up on Israel and all sorts of wild stuff.
Early this year, when the fighting was just starting in Iraq, Rev. Tim LaHaye's tenth in a series of fictional novels based on Revelation came out, shot to #1 on the New York Times bestseller list. Wal-Mart was selling 'em like hotcakes. People I knew were freaking out because of what the book said, all the while neglecting to notice that on the dustjacket of the book, it said it was a work of fiction. Folks were telling me all the time (heard the same phrase on AM talk radio, too) that "Ooohhhhh, we're in the End Times now, for sure!"
Ok, so where are the end times now?
It never ceases to amaze me how crazy people can be . . .
Just like the poorly educated folks in the middle east can get so hyped on on fundamentalist Islam, so do the poorly educated (in all things religious) people in the USA get hyped up in fundamentalist Christianity. Not that I particularly mind, however, except for when these fundamentalists inject their religious beleifs in public policy and create problems with the environment or international relations.
C'est la vie . . .
One problem that arises here is that G. W. Bush stated that he "would wage a CRUSADE against Islamic terrorism."
The use of "crusade" in political objectives is a touchy and emotional subject for Muslims since they have been attacked before in previous Crusades.
Yes, they will.Quote:
Originally Posted by PurePower
Good explanation Vandoo.
Millions of people have been killed throughout history in the name of God, Allah, Jesus Christ, etc. The use of religion to justify murder is nothing new and is currently being used by Arab terrorists to gain followers and support. I do not prescribe to any faith and am basically of the belief that when you die you're done. The Christian bible has some gruesome stories in the old testament where God tells the Isrealites to go into cities and kill all the men women and children. These stories were written a few thousand years ago and are no different than the Saudi Mullahs preaching death to the infedels in the name of Allah. If there is a God, all who would commit murder in his name including Osama, The Taliban and even our president will face judgement. I believe we were just and right to invade Afganistan as it was basically the country of Al Quiada. That was truly an act of self defense. Iraq is a different story and I hold judgement until I see proof of the threat to America.
i'm not sure how you relate this to the crusades, i'm not entirely familar with that... a holy war yea, i'd agree with that, a bunch of religious extremeist belive in their heart to pick off people from a western civilization, because they look down on them, because they are not muslim... The whole thing stinks... I hate discussing politics when i'm on cause i'll go forever, but... i'd say bring our boys, and whoever else we are allies with, bring those guys home...forget the middle east... its about money and oil, and all that is happening is kids are getting killed... We read about soliders that are getting wacked for P R O T E C T I N G innocent people... yes we have to deal with this, and its wrong...
personally i'd kill em all....burn em... forgive me but its a touchy subject
I wouldn't compare them to the crusades at all... not that i really care that muslims are being killed... Has no bearing on my life at all. As for Islam being a "religion of peace", thats laughable. Islam is no more a religion of peace than judeo-christianity is. The only people i give a **** about are the poor AMERICANS away from their families and putting themselves in danger over some morons who think they're acting in the name of god.
To be honest, i'd wake up with a big smile on my face if we could pull out all the troops and just level the entire middle east with nukes. I just don't like seeing american family men overseas in danger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdtr
i wish we would nuke the whole fcking desert..then bathe in the oil
As far as finding a few guns in their homes: They should not have guns unless they are helping saddam. They dont have the RIGHT TO BARE ARMS like the U.S. Regular IRAQ civilians DO NOT have ACCESS to weapons unless there is a reason. That reason being to shoot US troops.
So, if we found guns in their homes then that was A GOOD SEARCH. Just because they live in a house and have a family does not mean they are not out SHOOTING american soldiers and then running back in their house and cuddling by a fire with their family.
BTW. IRAQ is under military control. Our men will do whatever it takes to keep themselves safe while over there. If it takes a show of force then they should show force. **** getting their heads blown off because they have to be polite.
This is a very interesting topic that was brought about. I feel that we are fighting some sort of crusades these day and they will continue to be fought until the end of time. It is funny tock, how you scoff at the idea of the end of time, but purepower I am with you all the way. I have read revelations quite a few times just out of curiosity and feel that every time I read it that the more and more I am convinced that the beast and the demon that is spoken of in revelations is indeed the muslim religion and its leaders. Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against any followers of the religion but I do feel they are misguided on false principals and beliefs. Any religion that preaches that you kill in the name of your religion to those who are non believers and are rewarded with virgins in the afterlife need to get a clue. This is absurd and just plain stupid. The people who think this religion is harmless and preaches good will to one another need to wake up. Why, if this religion does not preach this, are there fanatics not only in the middle east but also in Asia and in Africa. You want to say, well, not everyone is like that? Well, the people who are like that are the true fanatics who believe in the ****. How many christians follow the 10 commandments? Not a **** one. How many are there? Millions. The christian faith is easier to embrace because it doesn't require people to kill themselves and others in the name of their religion. That is why there are very few muslims. You can say all you want to that there are true muslims all around the world but you better not unless you are and the bottom line is that they will kill in the name of their religion. Why? More virgins in the after life. I, in my most humble of opinions, feel that this religion is the largest threat to mankind. Not just the western world for what grief the muslims hold against them for supporting isreal and such but also the people who embrace the religion and follow its teachings. Good topic bouncer.
First off, if you lived in a country which was invaded by a foreign army which then rendered it a lawless society you bet your bottom dollar you'd arm yourself. I've served in a middle east numerous time and carry firearms IS a way of life there. And while its not enshrined in any constitution there, their right to protect themselves is every bit as important as yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by bermich
To your second point, yes your guys have a right to defend themselves and war ain't pretty. Your guys have a tough job to do there, god bless them.
To the point of the thread.
I sincerely feel that we're faced with a Muslim crusade. I've listened to the frightening retoric (sp'ing) spewing from the mouths of Muslim clerics here in Europe and its truely frightening. I would define their crusade by the fact that when a country turn prodominately Muslim their want to exert total and absolute control over their subjects and religious tolerance is thrown right out the window. While I've met some moderate Muslim's in the M.E. they've been few and far between.
I think its time that the whole free world rose against them, how do we do it?. I haven't a **** clue. But the fact is, as a religious movement, their a greater threat to world peace than even Dubya, lol..
Of course we(Christian/Ango/HellenicOrthodox Serb) are fighting the Crusades again..well We are fighting a Crusade(Jihad) against us.
50%Natural,
Islam doesnt preach killing one self. In fact suicide is condemned in Islam. The problem that arises is that the Muslim leaders preach their spin and rhetoric of the Kuran to the ignorant(not knowing people) now and always have. It is similar to when the Church was the most powerful object in Judeo-Christian society 500+ years ago because they were the only literate group and the only ones who could "read" the bible.
Like in the Palestine problem. In the early 20th century Britain promised Arabs Palestine. They soon changed their mind and gave it to the Jews, Balfour Declaration (1917), as Rothschild was financing their war effort. 1918 the Arab leaders release the Hogarth Message to Britain saying that they got screwed. It isnt until The Arab Awakening is published in 1938 that the Arab public is made aware. That is 20 years of ignorance! That same year, 1938, Britain releases the MacDonald White Papers. Jews must remain a minority, two state system impossible but Arabs should have government roles, and the most powerful is that Jewish immigration is limited to 50,000 over 5 years with 25000 immigrants. The latter being a contributing factor in the annhilation of Jews during the Holocaust. Throughout this period and up to today, Zionists and then Israelis have agreed to Two state systems with the Arabs saying that only proper place for Jews is in the Mediterranian Sea. It is all or nothing!
Back to the point, suicide is an embarrassment. Dying in battle fighting for your religion is holy. So the leaders claim they are in Jihad, and that they are killing enemies before they kill themselves, as western labeled "suicide bombers", and thus they are soldiers. The citizens of the ME are raised with no value of life. They are worth more as martyrs for the cause then as actual human capital. Families are rewarded and idolized for having a son or daughter die. Kids are brought up HOPING to kill themselves as a "suicide bomber." The people of the middle east are brought up with a terrorist mentality! When all you see on TV is propaganda for suicide bombing and kids are taught in school how to be bombers, becoming a terrorist is the logical result. Although I feel I am fairly liberal, the only way to deal with Terrorism is with an iron fist. Turning a shoulder and promoting love to and saying the result is it will go away is a reality. For the most part, you give them an inch and they will take a foot. If they had a choice they would kill you and they will kill me.
It has been said that countries/regions get terms of world power. Right now the middle east has tremendous power because of oil. Many alternative fuels and sources of energy are being developed as we speak. In the next 20-50 years as Arabs lose their base of power, historians will look back and say what did the Arab leaders do for the people? NOTHING!!! They kept them impoverished, they kept them unhealthy with little to no water available, few industry beyond cottage industry and mom-and-pop shops, and they kept them militant(purposely!). At the same time the leaders took all the money and built lavish palaces and estates.
I gotta say its the other way around. Al-Quida started this, and they are the ones who want to kill all of us. Granted Al- Quida is not all the muslims in the world. When the emporor of Japan bombed pearl harbor, we attacked Japan, where a lot of japanese people live. Its the same type of situation. I'd rather be out proactivly fighting than staying at home with a sheet over our heads hoping nothing will happen again.
The japanese and the germans allowed these crazy people to get into power, and they payed the price. As far as I'm concerned the muslims (not all) have let Osama do the same thing, and they are paying the price. I think its a matter of taking care of your own house.
:banana: :elephant: :banana: :elephant:
Absolutely is right, the Qu'raan doesnt not preach to kill yourself. Unfortunately like I mentionned before, some people use the book for their own means, like some christians did, or still do. how many sects says the bible says that and that, that we shouldnt give blood or black people have their brain in their ankles?!!!
You deal with a population that had nothing to lose. Now let's take an example....
We will call our subject: Dubya Al-Dummer.
Dubya is born in Iran, in a small village 100 of kilometers from Teheran. He's from Shi'a denomination from a very pious Muslim community.
That same community was exploited by the Russians, then the British, then the Shaw. Since 50 years there is nothing to do.... There no jobs, work, and last industry closed their doors 50 years ago.
Al-Dummer wants to be a pilot, and his brother wants to be a doctor. His mother wants to open a tea shop, and his sister want to study law... But they have no money to do so, they all live in the same quarters, they cant do **** and even when they try only failure upon them.
One man give them hope, his name is Sheik Al-****er... The cleric knows how to boost the population morale saying in the other word it should be better... God, will be there... Well, when you have no more hope and nothing. God is really your lasting savior. Dubya is getting interested, as he cant go to school and has no future he let himself fall for the clerics speech!
He's getting into Jihad, and Martyrdom and to die for God and he should be granted 72 virgins. WOW, 72, imagine that, 72, when he cant even get married as he has no money and nothing to prosper a good life and a wife. You will receive an education, you will get your pilot licence. We will teach you devotion,
WHAT IS TO BE A SHADID, EL-SHADID!
A MARTYR!
Al-Dummer leaves his hometown, and fly to Egypt, get his education and then became a pilot.
His dream comes true.... they gave him what he wanted. NO, GOD GAVE HIM a path, now! As God gave you your dream, you have to sacrifice yourself to God's wish....
One morning, Dubya take off the runway from Charles de Gaule Airport in Paris, just two min after an Israeli plane landed, he turned around. Fly directly toward the plane.... He closes his eyes and shooted "Allah Arkbar!!!!"
400 peoples killed.....
He's now a Shahid.... The highest place you can obtain in Jihad...
His mother just opened his shop.
His sister is now a lawyer in teheran.
And his brother is now studying medicine.
The whole of his family, when they walk to get glaze,
adminration and fear and their family went for the ultimate sacrifice......
You say, that a Crusade is occuring...
Hmmm, no...
It is just a reaction of self-defence, this will stop one day.. when the "west" and here I dont say US... but people like Bush and friends will stop to exploit and stop impossing their views and culture to others...
Leave them alone, they will leave you alone and everyone should be happy.
As to go to oil. the people controlling oil does not share with the people...
They are called, rentier-state. They know their state will not have that ressource forever. They stock up, on money. But also, everything is paid by the state.
Well some of them... not all of them.
now, one day: us, we will maybe say to these corporation HEY THAT enought. We want other means of energy, we have them, but when you have the cars companies that owns oil companies and the president of the most powerful country doesnt know how to spell but is owner of oil ressources, well tought luck.
One day, we will not need oil as we need now. And, we will not look at the Middle-East like we used to.
It will be hell or peace. except the support to Israel will be the same? hmmmm that I have to see.
to come back
NO the Qu'raan doesnt not ask you to kill yourself.
but in all books, we all get different interpretation.
When I read it, I read a confussed book, something not clear. When I read the Bible I see drugs, sex and rock'n roll. The Torah, I see exagerations....
You know, one day, I would love to see God, open the sky and appears to us and yell "YOU ARE WRONG YOU ****S! Im pushing the reset button" LOL
Without getting to political lets just kill em all and let God sort em out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverman1
that way too easy! :blush:
Of course are in a Crusade. Islam is NOT the relgion of peace. When Iwas in the Balkans I saw first had at the resolve of the Albanian peace..When I was in the mid east/Isreal I saw the measure of muslim peace.
The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing. (Koran 2:171)..Cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads. Strike off even the tips of their fingers! (Koran 8:12)...Believers do make friends with any but your own people of Islam’ (Koran 3:118)..Give warning to the hypocrites that woeful punishment awaits them : those who chose unbelievers rather than Muslims for their friends’ (4:138).
Real peaceful! Instead of trying to live in the 7th and kill children and women, how about trying to get running water!
Islam is the only religion still practised in the modern world that preaches and justifies persecution on the basis of religious grounds. It declares that killing non-Muslims is a holy act and any Muslim doing so is guaranteed a safe passage to heaven. While Muslims will stoop to any level to convert people, Koran declares that apostates must be killed. It allows its followers to declare a fatwa to kill any human being and lets them get away with it. Only Muslims believe that restricting women behind bars, if necessary brutally, is good. Islam preaches polygamy of men. Muslims claim birth control and family
planning is un-Islamic. This ensures that they fill up the whole world with sky-high birth rate.
===================Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaSlamma
I haven't a clue why, but back during the 1100's, the middle east was a paragon of tolerance and acceptance. Jews were allowed to openly practice their religion, so were Christians and pretty much any other religion. The muslims were cool about everything, "moderate" might be the appropriate word . . .
So, if it could be that way once, it could be that way again. Right now, Islam is going through the fundamentalist nightmare that Christianity went through from about 1250 to 1800. Hah . . . the thing that brought Europe out of the Christian fundamentalist disaster was the Renaisannce and the Enlightenment. My guess is that Islam needs to find and go through this for itself as well.