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  1. #1
    Cycleon is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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    Videotape Shows U.S. Helicopter Crew Firing on Suspected Iraqi Insurgents

    From ABC news site -

    Jan. 9— Graphic video footage from the gun camera of a U.S. Apache helicopter provides a window into the rules of engagement that often determine life and death in Iraq.


    The video, obtained by ABCNEWS, shows grainy images of three Iraqis on the ground handling a long cylindrical object that the helicopter pilots believe is a weapon.
    The pilots, from the Army's 4th Infantry Division, ask their commanders for permission to engage, then take the three men out one by one, using the Apache's devastating 30 mm cannons.

    Nighttime Scene

    The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

    The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

    "Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

    The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

    "I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

    The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

    The pilots wait as a tractor arrives on the scene, near the spot where the pickup driver dropped the object. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver.

    Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men.

    When he rolls out from under the truck, one of the pilots says, "He's wounded."

    The other pilot says, "Hit him," and the Apache opens fire again, killing the man.

    The Apache fires nearly 100 30 mm cannon rounds in all.


    Engagement Called Justified

    A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops.

    Keane agreed. "Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that," he said.

    Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. "They're not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see."

    As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."

    Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

    an I am sure all you bleeding hearts would rather we killed them with a pistol at 5 feet but that is at least one helicopter that wont be getting shot down with an rpg today

  2. #2
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    yeah, well when the same army killed ALL the Brits in the first gulf war and a section of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, plus a few Tornado's and british MBT's in this gulf war.. Well I'd have to wonder about the long "cylindrical object" the Iraqi's were carrying. You know, I almost shot a child in Southern Lebanon in 1988 who pointed the inner tude from a carpet roll at the vehicle I was in. I thought it was an R.P.G. and I pray to god that the next time I hessitate its not the real thing.

    ***Btw, ya know I'm going to play 'devils advocate' on all these threads buddy *** Don't take what I say too literally, ok.

  3. #3
    Cycleon is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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    bouncer - dont worry, we all know you are just one big lovin puss


    and you are right - it really is hard to know that you are always making the right call - but then again, when its your butt and your crews butts, you have to make that decision quick - you dont want to wait to see if they can hit your rear rotor before you confirm its an RPG

  4. #4
    Lord Humungous's Avatar
    Lord Humungous is offline Associate Member
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    Sorry, I'm seeing that gunner in Full Metal Jacket again...."GET SOME!"

    Ok, I'll shut up now.

    -LH

  5. #5
    3Vandoo's Avatar
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    Hey I remember when I was playing that pc game "Apache"
    I once shot a Polish soldier with the chaingun. Then WW3 started, my fault again!

  6. #6
    Swellin Guest
    Okay Cyc, I'm with you!

    Too many folks are geeting killed by guerilla hits to pass up something like this. Maybe, I am a little biased...my brother has been over there the whole time, flying a Blackhawk.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Humungous
    Sorry, I'm seeing that gunner in Full Metal Jacket again...."GET SOME!"

    Ok, I'll shut up now.

    -LH
    Amen bro!

  8. #8
    Swellin Guest
    I just spoke with my bother about this incident.

    He said that it was confirmed...an RPG launcher....15 rockets and 7 AKs.

  9. #9
    Gilster's Avatar
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    I see nothing wrong with what happened. It is not ike they could not hear the helicopter above, and they know it is not a Bathe party helicopter. They knew pretty well they were playing with fire by running around and hiding stuff. Play with fire and you might get burned. The caliber of the weapon means nothing. Dead is dead, whether it be done by a BB gun or a 30mm gun. Probably a lot quicker death with the bigger gun so IMO more humane.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Humungous
    Sorry, I'm seeing that gunner in Full Metal Jacket again...."GET SOME!"

    Ok, I'll shut up now.

    -LH
    Me too....lol. "GET SOME! COME GET SOME!" lol. I love that movie. Dude wasted everyone...

  11. #11
    Swellin Guest
    GIlster, I agree with you 100%. My brother told me a little about the video. He said that they heard the chopper and started acting real spooky. That is when then guy ran and dropped the launcher.

    **** the media! It is not a **** cannon! It is a 30 MM chain gun. Tons of small twists can turn a dust devil into a tornado...those bastards sure are good at helping make it spin.

  12. #12
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by BamaSlamma
    If they look the part of the enemy...they are the enemy. I found the same crap time and time again in Bosnia..

    What did you do in Bosnia ?

  13. #13
    jeffylyte's Avatar
    jeffylyte is offline Member
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    the only problem I think anybody would have is the killing of the guy when he was wounded. now the question becomes, whether or not he was incapacitated. why does this matter? think to all the movies where the bad guys go into the field after teh battle and shoot all the wounded. generally this is considered a bad thing... ie one must provide aid and comfort to the wounded, provided of course that they surrender.

    now I would not have a problem with this either, I just want people to shut the **** up when terrorists and such shoot our wounded boys in the head. you cant have it both ways.

  14. #14
    jeffylyte's Avatar
    jeffylyte is offline Member
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    btw can you post the link to the story?

  15. #15
    Swellin Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffylyte
    the only problem I think anybody would have is the killing of the guy when he was wounded. now the question becomes, whether or not he was incapacitated. why does this matter? think to all the movies where the bad guys go into the field after teh battle and shoot all the wounded. generally this is considered a bad thing... ie one must provide aid and comfort to the wounded, provided of course that they surrender.

    now I would not have a problem with this either, I just want people to shut the **** up when terrorists and such shoot our wounded boys in the head. you cant have it both ways.
    When they are still engaged and there are weapons closeby, this was not an execution. This was a resolution of the conflict.You draw a parrallel to an execution by bringing up a head shot on the wounded...this guy was crawling around under the truck...hiding. The idea that this was a summary execution of a wounded prisoner/potential POW..is insane.

    I just want people to shut the **** up when terrorists and such shoot our wounded boys in the head.
    While I think I know where you were trying to go with this...you have it all wrong. I don't give a flying **** about this type of rhetoric. If a TERRORIST shoots anybody...you will have a hard time shutting me up. I think I should stop here, because you quite possibly meant something a little different. I have some serious aversion to anyone supporting a terrorist's "right" to anything but death.
    Last edited by Swellin; 01-12-2004 at 10:40 AM.

  16. #16
    jeffylyte's Avatar
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    my point is that if you agree (and I do) that all those still active, and with or near weapons are combatants then they should be killed. But the reverse side is that when our enemies do it, we shouldn't complain, or call them evil or terrorists because of it. Simply put, in war people die. Does it matter if its a stealth fighter or a person dressed in a turban?

    some things we can all say shouldnt be done, like car bombs and flying planes into buildings...but keep in mind, the U.S. isnt above getting its hands dirty by blowing up office buildings or supporting the ability of some nations to dress military as civies. If something is wrong for one its wrong for all. However, I know what I think of all this, does anybody else.

    Just trying to get people to think is all.

  17. #17
    Swellin Guest
    Thanks for the clarification. Initially I had written a rather blistering post, but realized that this might be the diorection you were taking, and I would have been out of line. I guess it is the wording in the previous post that lit my fire.

    Just to clarify....killing wounded soldiers who are no longer combatants...is execution (with certain situation specific exceptions)...and it is wrong, no matter who does it.

    Realistically, your point is somewhat moot, when considering the execution versus combat scenario. When it is still combat, it is simply a kill. So now I think I am confused. At any rate...I think I kind of understand what you are saying.

  18. #18
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by BamaSlamma
    Sent Serb-killing Croats to meet Allah.

    So in Bosnia, where the Serbs where premarily killing Muslim's and knocking the sh*t of of Mostar, Dubrovnik (sp'ing) and other Croat towns, and while Nato forces were and are still hunting down the Serb leaders you went killing the very people you were suppose to be protecting?... Forgive my ignorance, but I'm confused.

  19. #19
    spywizard's Avatar
    spywizard is offline AR-Elite Hall of Famer~
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    You ever hear of the term cultural cleansing..

    one of the practices was killing all men and boys, and raping all the women (to impregnate them) from a different group...

    Serbs....aribic... whatever.. i am not superior in nature.. my morals, and values are shaped by my own beliefs, and wants...

    The moral of the story.. the strong make the rules, the weak follow, or are destroyed....

    1st there is a democracy
    2nd comes a republic (the usa is a republic today)
    3rd comes a socialism
    4th comes a dictator to lead the masses
    5th come a monarch

    then it becomes through force..a democracy........

    history unfolding and repeating itself before our very eyes...................

    i say.. If you threaten me (the USA or allies) well we all see what happens........................
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  20. #20
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    You ever hear of the term cultural cleansing..

    one of the practices was killing all men and boys, and raping all the women (to impregnate them) from a different group...

    Serbs....aribic... whatever.. i am not superior in nature.. my morals, and values are shaped by my own beliefs, and wants...

    The moral of the story.. the strong make the rules, the weak follow, or are destroyed....

    1st there is a democracy
    2nd comes a republic (the usa is a republic today)
    3rd comes a socialism
    4th comes a dictator to lead the masses
    5th come a monarch

    then it becomes through force..a democracy........

    history unfolding and repeating itself before our very eyes...................

    i say.. If you threaten me (the USA or allies) well we all see what happens........................

    Maybe its because its past 4am here and I'm awake since sometime last week, but WHAT ?.. I mean, I can't figure that one out.

  21. #21
    Warrior's Avatar
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    I got the video - one of the pilots dropped it off with us and it started to circulate more than intended. He didn't mean for it to get around - but now it's everywhere... so from what I heard it doesn't really matter anymore. If it is not classified I will try and post it for you all to check out - I heard it was kinda graphic though (obviously). A buddy of mine asked if I wanted it e-mailed to me a few days ago...

  22. #22
    Swellin Guest
    Hey Warrior, I understand that it is 87 megs. That might make it a little more difficult to deal with. At least, the copy my brother has is 87 megs. Maybe somebody has made it a little smaller.


    So you have not actually seen it yet?

  23. #23
    Warrior's Avatar
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    No - a buddy watched it said they were going to e-mail it to him and he asked me if I wanted it too. I said yes, but I told him (like you just said) I doubt it could be e-mailed. The way he explained what it consisted of (a lot of engaing on targets), I told him the file must be huge. I asked if I could just get it on CD - but he said the guy got it e-mailed to him so it would be fine. But it was probably e-mailed to him off a military e-mail account - which I don't have. Hotmail would probably close my acount if I had an 87 mb file sent to me But I'll check it out at work - and see how big it is and if I can get it some how...

    He also mentioned how the guys were pretty much torn in half - ENGAGE Now I'm really interested in watching it - I'll check at work manana... and then see how big it is and if I can get it... (got a lot of photos from 3rd ID too)

  24. #24
    Cycleon is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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    go warrior - im sure jason has an account on here that we could get it to - would be interesting to see - THAT should be played on al Jazeera - "why you do not run around with RPGs in the dark near US helicopters - an object lesson in graphic detail"

  25. #25
    Swellin Guest
    My brother is due home from Iraq in a few weeks, and I will have it then. He said that it the chills you get when the guy says, "Engange, smoke 'em," is about the same as in Black Hawk Down, when the little birds roll in hot that night on the strobes.
    Last edited by Swellin; 01-13-2004 at 02:24 PM.

  26. #26
    groverman1's Avatar
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    Yeah war is hell.

  27. #27
    spywizard's Avatar
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    Hey Swellin... is your Brother in the 82nd?>>




    Quote Originally Posted by swellin
    My brother is due home from Iraq in a few weeks, and I will have it then. He said that it the chills you get when the guy says, "Engange, smoke 'em," is about the same as in Black Hawk Down, when the little birds roll in hot that night on the strobes.
    The answer to your every question

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  28. #28
    Swellin Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    Hey Swellin... is your Brother in the 82nd?>>
    101st

  29. #29
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    I wish you guys would stop refering to hollywood movies. Do you guys remember the same sh*t was with the A-10 in the first gulf war when it attacked the two British warrior APC's and killed 12 British soldiers, or the same sort fo video release when the F-18 killed the Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. We heard the same bravado talk from the bombers then too. Guys, don't go glorifying this war or another untill you've experience it forst hand yourself.

  30. #30
    Warrior's Avatar
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    I will glorify the **** out of it because I DO live it everyday... these guys are animals (old Iraqi regieme). We had an Iraqi cop shoot a girl in the back of the head for being rapped - and then arrest the guy that rapped her. We took him into custody and forced to let him go. This type of behavior must stop... and it will.

  31. #31
    spywizard's Avatar
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    Im glad he made it back....

    peace...


    Quote Originally Posted by swellin
    101st
    The answer to your every question

    Rules

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  32. #32
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Glorify the sh&t out of this

    http://www.worldrevolution.org/Proje...pic=humancosts

    While your boys are over for Bush's lies these are the other victims of his war. I don't see too many American children with their limbs blown off, or left orphaned through a foreign invaders aggression.

    Hye nice cushy tour your having, in the rear with the gear?.. Posting on AR.com from the field I take it?.

  33. #33
    Warrior's Avatar
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    Haha - OK man... see ya on the 50 cal - starting QRF this month... BTW - I volunteered for this...

  34. #34
    Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer
    While your boys are over for Bush's lies these are the other victims of his war. I don't see too many American children with their limbs blown off, or left orphaned through a foreign invaders aggression.

    Hye nice cushy tour your having, in the rear with the gear?.. Posting on AR.com from the field I take it?.
    That's because we take care of our people and their way of life - as well as the World's way of life, their rights to life without terror. War has casualties - sorry to disapoint you. And America refuses to take anymore hits in the homeland... we don't want it... and we don't stand for it. As well as hits on our allies and innocent people... whether they be arabs or catholics.

    They know why we're there and what we intend to eliminate. Don't be nieve to the threat... they were ready to knock on YOUR back door...

    Normally, I try not to get in the middle of controversy involving the details of the US missions in Iraq...

  35. #35
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior
    War has casualties - sorry to disapoint you.
    lol, I probably fired my first shot in angry, lost my first comrade and rescued my first civilian casualities when you where a dirty thought in daddies head... Sorry to disappoint you

    As regards protecting American's and their friends etc, just explain to me again how Iraq was a threat to America and their friends in the last 10 yrs ?

  36. #36
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Listen, I have to back off this one for the night. I'm shaking like fcuk from some ephedrine earlier and I get ratty as sh*t on it. I don't want to say something I'll have to apologise for later. If your really in Iraq, I'll take this oppertunity to wish you and your comrades and safe tour. I'll be oversea's sometime later this yr myself, probably Liberia.

    Later.

  37. #37
    Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer
    As regards protecting American's and their friends etc, just explain to me again how Iraq was a threat to America and their friends in the last 10 yrs ?
    Hey buddy - I don't want to argue with you. But I DO believe that the World will be a better place without the former Iraqi regieme. We will have our critics - but such is life. Thier dictators stories of terror have been well publicized... Iraq was a threat and it isn't anymore... believe what you want about it... but it goes pretty deep - so deep that the CIA is involved in a lot of the affairs where everything is hush, hush... ya dig? I'm done with this topic...

  38. #38
    Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer
    Listen, I have to back off this one for the night. I'm shaking like fcuk from some ephedrine earlier and I get ratty as sh*t on it. I don't want to say something I'll have to apologise for later. If your really in Iraq, I'll take this oppertunity to wish you and your comrades and safe tour. I'll be oversea's sometime later this yr myself, probably Liberia.

    Later.
    Cool... this is why I try and stay out of these threads Let me know if you ever come out my way (via PM)... I am here for awhile...

  39. #39
    Swellin Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    Im glad he made it back....

    peace...
    Thanks bro. He was leaving for Kuwait today. Maybe everything went well.


    Bouncer, I guess I should clarify my position on this thread (the War itself is another issue). I abhore war...never glorify it. My reference to any film (Hollywood or not) was about the chills you experience when those choppers start firing the chain guns or mini-guns. It is an awe inspiring thing. In this particular instance it was directed at people. That is not why I want to see it. An Apache firing its nose gun at night is an unreal scene. Granted, the circumstances make it an horrific thing.

    As for the poart about experiencing it yourself...no doubt. There is nothing that those of us who have not served, can conceive that could paint a picture resembling the real thing. That does not alienate us from the right to discuss such things, though.

    I sincerely wish you an uneventful tour be it Liberia or anywhere else.

  40. #40
    Rod Farva's Avatar
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    Not sure if this is the one but I just got this from a friend...

    http://www.btinternet.com/~scuzi/224...ter_Kills.mpeg

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