http://www.constitutioncenter.org/ex...ire/3796.shtml
Man... if we tried something like that here... the :ACLU would be on that like ****** on rice....
oops..............
If you ban that piece of clothing.. do you ban the wearing of crosses, or shirts that make any statement regarding religion???
Or a statement that is offensive....??
How Much is tooooooooooo much.......
Just ****ing ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.
They banned every thing to do with showing off religion in schools which includes crosses to me. I don't see what the problem is.
The hell are you talking about? Wearing a cross and wearing a muslim headdress for a female muslim is much different. A cross is a sign of faith, but the scarf is an integral part of their religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFlex
Actually.. its no difference at all..
they are both an outward sign of obedience, and of thier faith..
Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo
There is no biblical passage indicating a Christian must wear a cross. There are, however, passages in the Koran that decree that women should cover themselves in the presence of men who aren't their husband. So there is a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by spywizard
NO NO NO!
they want to ban it from the school, where it is secular.
Also ban it from public offices.
IN public place or at home it at your own.
But in a gov office at school not accepted.
and in the Qu'ran there is no where to be seing a verset that says, women should wear themselve. It is a old tradition that was kept from a law that was passed at Meca a long time ago, when the rapes were common for all women!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo
Rambo the scarf is no part of their religion.
It is a supreme sign of male dominance, and in many Muslim countries you will not see it, only for the annoying bitch that wants to brag saying they are pude.
ex: tunisia!
\Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
It is a part of their religion. Not all muslim women wear scarves, but most do. There are various "hadiths" in Islam that dictate the covering of bodily features on women. To say that muslim women who wear it are "annoying bitches" that are just trying to act "prude" is extremely incorrect. From your previous posts you seem to know enough about theology to not make such an offensive statement.
Sorry Van but it is in the Koran:Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
“O Prophet [PBUH] Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should put on their outer garments; that is most convenient in order that they maybe recognized (as Muslims) and not be abused.” (33:59)
If you bothered to research this a little and stop the "take a dump of france every chance you get" bull, you'd find out that the same stuff is going on in much of Europe, including Italy, Germany and Switzerland and even in some former east block countries.
Also Islamic terrorism may be new to Americans, but france has been suffering from their random attacks for over 20 years... (mostly but not exclusively Algerians) to this day Islamic terrorists are torching syngogues and schools in France.
The Police Nationale and secret service there are doing an ok job of controlling them, they just don't make a media circus about like they do here. It's done quietly and efficiently... when a terrorist is caught there you seldom hear of it, and even more seldom see him again...
As for banning the hijab in PUBLIC schools, I have a problem with that... kids do not have a choice about going to a public school... so wether it's a hijab, burkha, yamulka or full hassidim dress, cross or whatever they should be permitted. Public school is a basic right.
On the other hand, private schools should be allowed to impose any dress code they want... after all nobody HAS to go to a private school. One pays for that privilege.
Red
I can't remember... who wrote the Koran... I think it says it's good to beat your wife in it also...........????
Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo
Im ****ing tierd of it to Red. Ignorant people!Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ketchup
Burkha´s arent allowed in Swedish schools either, start flaming on us too please!!
Btw Sweden didnt put in law that its not ok to hit your wife until the early 1920´s and spanking kids in 1978 i think. Are we that much better? When did the USA do this? I also think the coran can be interpitated in many ways, not all muslims beat the **** out of their wife.
Hey Red, i'm not debating the issue with you... This only came to my attention because it was broadcast on a national talk radio...
And although we are just now becoming aware of something, that we (i mean people in the USA) not neccesaraly myself...care enough about...
Personally, i believe it is more important to feed people here in the USA before i feed people around the world..
but that is another thread isn't it..................
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ketchup
burkas are NOT part of the religion - to have their head covered signifying subission to the male (father or husband) could be considered a religious observance - but not their face - that has come from arab tribal traditions and has nothing to do with islam but is used to keep women "in their proper place" in the areas that practice it most heavily - it is almost as if such women do not exist and certainly they are not expected to show anything that would make them distinct in public - they are actually more thought of as a way to bring tribes, clans and families together by purchasing (via dowry) a wife here or there or matchmaking
but we will see how peaceful the frogs are if a big blast along the champs d elise happens - that also is why they didnt support the US , they have a large and growing muslim population
Hey Cy...
Didn't France have one of the largest contracts with IRAQ before the war, for buying and selling Oil, and what not.???
thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CYCLEON
Quote:
Originally Posted by spywizard
Well said! The DMV in Florida was just wrestling with this same issue last year. I do not know whatever happend but the SCLU/ACLU was spearheading the defense of the oppressed "convert" who wanted to wear her hajib in her D.L> picture....
I agree with SpyWizard..the Hajib..Burkah is no different than a cross, or a priests robe or collar. A sign of obedience and profession of faith.
The hijab is not a symbol. Plain and simple. It is a piece of clothing that many muslim women see as necessary for covering up in a proper manner as other women see underwear. It is a modesty issue. Some muslim women feel uncomfortable not wearing a hijab. Just as there are some women who are uncomfortable wearing a bikini, they are not made to do so on public beaches.
On the other hand, France is a sovereign nation. If it passes a law and chooses to enforce it, then one must abide by those laws. If the US passes laws that I feel are hindering my religion, Islam, then I will move. The Qur'an also tells muslims that the earth is expansive and if we feel opressed then we should move.
The french muslims are reacting by going to private schools in order to dress how they want.
Nope... get your facts straight... that was the USAQuote:
Originally Posted by spywizard
From the CIA World factbook 2002 for Iraq:
Exports: $13 billion f.o.b. (2002 est.)
Exports - commodities: crude oil
Exports - partners: US 40.9%, Canada 8.2%, France 8.2%, Jordan 7.5%, Netherlands 6.4%, Italy 5.4%, Morocco 4.7%, Spain 4.4% (2002)
Imports: $7.8 billion f.o.b. (2002 est.)
Imports - commodities: food, medicine, manufactures
Imports - partners: Jordan 11%, France 8.8%, China 8.4%, Germany 7.6%, Russia 7.3%, Australia 7.2%, Vietnam 6.6%, Italy 6.4%, Japan 5.6% (2002)
Over 40% of Iraq exports (oil...) went to the US... thats quite a substancial trading partner I'd say...
Just another slam on france because they called bull**** on your presidents claim of weapons of mass destruction... (which still haven't been found almost a year into the war).
I'm not making this up, it's from one of your own governments websites... http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/iz.html
By the way I am not french and am not defending france, it's far from my favorite country for many (many!) reasons, but seeing slams based on bull**** and blind trust in corrupt medias just rubs me wrong.
Red
I don't think you could have said it in a more ignorant fashion if you tried. :unsure:Quote:
Originally Posted by spywizard
hey rambo...
actually i will post my real feelings on this matter...
I feel that anyone should be able to do what they wish in order to be happy... I do not have to like thier choices, or lifestyles.. thier beliefs, or thier desires to make everyone else like them..
I own property, I own guns.. most not registered..
I was on active duty with the AF for 10 years..
A cop for 6...
What i have learned in dealing with scum of the earth, and with non intellectual people such as you, in demonstrating with your comments regarding your obvious biased opinion regarding (that was an ignorant comment) or a feable attempt to not allow others to voice an opinion..
is that I DON'T GIVE A F U C K what anyone elses does until they bother me, or any of my family...
When someone bothers me or my family, i simply take action.. no threats, just actions..
this is in no means a threat to you....
I just get tired of raciest people making comments that try to degrade.. of which you have done.. if someone makes acomment that doesn't align with yours... you make a negative comment..
Thus.. your inability to accept all people..
I on the other hand reject the idea of accepting all people and thier different ideas and beliefs.. they may have them.. (they don't need my acceptance or permission) but i do not have to embrace them, nor do i have to have dinner with them, nor do i have to say "I respect you"
Because i don't...
I just put my life on the line for they to have the right to choose..
Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo
This will be my last post in the lounge for a while. I've been here since this board opened, and this is the first time I can actually say I'm ashamed to be a part of this.
There are times in my life when I am absolutely floored. This is one of them.
I am a non religious American male. I don't have a biased opinion. But I respect the opinions of others. I'm sure we have muslim members. I'm sure that when you demean their Holy manuscript by making such a blanketed statement- by which you have no means researched- you offend them. Since I am obviously "non intelligent" enough to have read the Koran, Bible or Torah, I will have to go by what was obviously the illustrated versions of each. When you've read them, you can feel free to debate theology with me. But your statement WAS offensive. If you had said the same thing about the Bible or Torah, I would be just as upset. I don't even know why you started this thread.
You didn't make a comment or opinion about the Koran in this thread... You misrepresented something and made false statements. If you had said,
"I think Islam and the Koran is stupid."
You wouldn't have heard a word out of me. That's your opinion, and like you, I'd fight to the death so you could voice it. But what you said was NOT an opinion, it was just incorrect, and that's where the line is drawn.
Stay safe, have a good holiday.
Sort of like in the Bible....spare the rod spoil the child?Quote:
Originally Posted by spywizard
When i started this thread, it was to bring to the forefront somethiing that was stated on national radio. not to start controversy.
Being a Christian Male in the USA, i can honestly say after many contacts, and dealings with Islamamic believers, we have nothing in common. Thus i have no need to extend any hospitality to them or thier belief systems that are such an integral part of thier day to day life..
Nor was it my intention to have a debat.. you made the statement that my conjecture was out of ignorance. To you that may be ok to tear someone's opinion down and an attempt to stop a line of reasoning.. (in a debate situation, it's called misdirection and intemidation)
Again the purpose of this thread was to bring to light the situation that Muslims are facing in France.. You wanted to make it into something else..
I was offended by your comments.. and still suprised, but not completely in your views, doing more research in your postings, it appears that you have a leaning towards Socialism.. But that would explain your aggressive stance in supporting your way of thinking. And your continued use of the word "Gay" and sex with animals and "s h it on my chest" i find offensive.. but.............i believe you have that right to say those things without me attempting to condemn you...
If you or someone else on this board is muslim and are offended, I'm sorry, i didn't start out to offend nor was it my intention.. At the same time... this is still america.... and opinions and words are just that..
I wonder if you were to die tomorrow, whould you be missed??? I Know i would be, but it would be a celebration also, my mother, wife, children, friends, business partners, friends and extended family would all know that i have just begun a further journey, and am in a much better place.
I dreamed of posting just this thing last night, and thus i feel compeled to do so.. ..........so ask yourself that question..
As for being ashamed of this board, and this thread... that's your problem.. to not be happy with something and attempt to sway opinion by making a statement like that is once again a tactic to misdirect..
Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo
[QUOTE=spywizard] I wonder if you were to die tomorrow, whould you be missed??? QUOTE]
This sounds like a personal attack. There is no need for that here. THis is the type of BS that drove me away from other boards.
Let's check the emotions at the door guys. No need to offend anyone purposefully (and this is not just meant at you Spy).
Not to start **** but France, Germany and Russia all agreed that Iraq had WMD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ketchup
Now I believe if they would have had undisputable proof before the war France would have still fought against the war. Why I don't truely know but they would have.
Thanks for pointing that out Jeff....
Maybe i'm wrong.. maybe too much test.. not excusses.. just reasons..
sometimes these subjects hit a nerve......
So... once again.. Rambo... if i have offended.. i apologize... with no exceptions..
A personal attack was not intended..
Peace..
[QUOTE=jeffylyte]Quote:
Originally Posted by spywizard
i say everyone takes a deep breath and screams real loud. feel better now??? good morning folks. smile :)
Yeah I know I know enought about theology but I am ****ing pissed. That I am even thinking about going to the extremist right wing now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juggernaut2148
That part of the Koran was put as a special rule by Mohamed to prevent rapes that was raging in Meca at the time.
I've studied with an ULAMA(ulama is a muslim scholar). The man is a teacher at my former university, he teaches in Iran, Turkey, Indonessia, Saudia, US and Kanaduh in universities around the world and he's also the head of the Mtl Muslim centre.
In class he told us I report his words here, and I have to say 90% of the class were moslem (the rest were people like me FORCED to learn :D)
"The chador, veil or whatever is not praised, compulsory, or forced in the koran but made up by son of a bitch that like power over women and oppress them!"
He insulted a dude from Pakistan at the time, I used to call him Talidude! :D
And for the France comments:
I am French speaking, I am from Canada.
My ancestors are from france, Scotland and Italy.. ok im a bastard.
My grand-mother is from Paris btw. and what looks like my future gf is from France and my ex is guess where from ? ****ing France!
I am still pissed at these ****ers that left us, poor canadiens here againts the brits LOL.
Anyway, there a love-hate relationship with France in the US. But the American-French relations since the Indepedence war, is like a MARRIED COUPLE!
Yes, Uncle Sam is married to the french woman the lady of the Liberty Statue!
In public they bitch at eachothers all the time, backstabs eachothers in public, yell at eachothers, but at the table their hands are fondling, below the table and they sleep in the same bed! So France was against the war in Iraq but sent special forces in Iraq months before the invasion LOL.
Now back to the Islamic thingie.
I think the western world and liberals are going too far.
Before I went to university, I was a new commissioned officer, that was drawn from the enlisted men.
I was a true liberal, equality to everyone, peace, all nations are equal, give equal rights to everyone, give opportunity to newly immigrants and their religions etc...
After I completed my BA from one of the most ethnictely diversed university in Canada. I must say FASCISM IS THE KEY !!!!!!!!!!! :D LOL
I saw everything in that university, and I am impressed I didnt killed anyone.
Anyway, muslim alway fight for their rights, especially in country where we give them all sorts of rights.
In my part of the world where Politcally correct is a RELIGION, you get fed up when I dont even feel at home because I am the alienated here....
Some people say Koran is stupid.....
hmmmm.... Hell..... it deserve a bit more of respect
Unfortunately when you read the bible it seem more clearer than the qu'ran.
The Koran gives way too much intepretations.... In the koran it says: The man that act against the peace and against world peace and its people in any mean is not a true muslim neither a believer. (HEY BIN LADEN!!! READ THAT!!!!)
But then again, there another part where it will say, "break peace if you are oppressed!"
Give too much freedom to interpret whatever you want.
Unfortunately, I think Islam is a big scam and the scam of the millenium.
Mohamed woke up one morning when he was 40, said Archangel Gabriel visited him with words from God. Then wrote his book and submission and God says im
- Your head of state
- Priest
- Judge
- General
- Give me power
- follow me!
- Mayor
Then again, maybe same for Judaism, christianity or Vandoolism!
RELIGION IS THE OPIUM OF THE MASSES! - Marx!
Some scholars say, Mo had no contacts with Christians before he went to Medina, that is totally wrong. Asked any Christian Arabs and they will tell you that Mohamed was in fact a Christian (I luv that propaganda). LOL
Mu'im, I think you are Muslim, and please dont be offended by my statement here. Ive dated a Muslim girl from Moroco (she had the face of Jen Lopez:D),
and she was only wearing her veil back at home, a small tiny one. here in canada never, except for religious custom at the mosque or holidays.
But in France, it becomes a big problem when Muslim challenges the identity, laws and culture of a country. Same here, we will have a muslim tribunal.
Some people that are unfortunately Muslim show no respects for their welcoming countries. Religion or not.
But, in all religion, races, countries there is some good people and some jerks
and unfortunately we alway argue about the jerks!
It is easy to say to someone not to get offended when one is saying offensive things. I do not expect fat ugly women to let me off the hook if I say, "You look like a retarded cow, no offense." But I said, "No offense!" It just does not work like that.
On the other hand, I am trying to keep grudges out of my life. So no big deal. People can only judge situations by the experiences that they have had. In my opinion, I feel that this is one of the main reasons that the US and Islam are having such bs controversy. I feel that it is really unnecessary. I feel no personal conflicts. I am both a born American and muslim. My ancestors came to this country in the 1870s from Ireland and Wales. So I am about as white as God makes them. The sun is none of my business.
I am also not just muslim because my parents were. I choose this religion. I studied it and liked it. If anyone here knew me they would also know that I would never ever believe in something that advocated such horrible acts of violence. I feel that people suffer from temporary amnesia. The federal building in Oklahoma City was done by a white christian, Timothy McVey. Ted Kiziski (sp?), the unibomber was some crazy mountain man. Is crazy only allowed for white people? Crazy is everywhere and when you have over a billion people, some with very low levels of education, crazy is very easy to sell.
Just as in the US, terrorism is being pointed out to be the greatest threat to American livelihood. In some countries muslims are being told that the US is the source of all problems. Guess what everyone? The cold war era bs is over. Issues are not black and white. Why must everything be broken down into "us vs them?" Are we not smarter than this? Can we not see the folly of this type of thinking?
If a woman gets an abortion, does that mean she is completely evil or her whole family? If a man sold drugs, does that mean that he or his culture is worthless to society. There are guys on this board who sell stuff which is illegal but we do not condemn them.
I may not believe in christianity or judaism as a religion but I do not think that those who follow those beliefs are devils. Just as we should not base judgements on a race according to some people's behavior, should we not do the same in other areas, like ethnicity, religion, and cultures.
I am sorry for the long post. This is just an issue that is difficult for me to see. Two loves of my life, my country and my religion, fighting when in my heart I do not feel the conflict at all.
Thanks for everyone's patience. If I have said anything to upset anyone or said anything incorrectly, I apologize, truly.
Peace.
that was a hell of a post Mu'min. very well written and gets one to think. that and you are another (as I did long ago) who realizes that most of the terrorists in the history of the U.S. (Ted and Tim are but two of a bunch) have not been of Muslim descent, but Christian. As you say, crazy knows no religion or race! And the retarded cow comment. Priceless!
Bump... great post 3vandoo...... insightfull, and not judgemental...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
Mu'min - what you say is true, most muslims are not particularly violent and while I do not agree with a numnber of cultural issues many have overall many can make good citizens here or in their home country.
Infortunately the average muslim has not done anything to stop or point out the wahabist fanatics who are all to good at raising funds and hiding behind religion - but that is only because true muslims do not actively do something about it - and dont give me any crap about "they decry the horror of the terrorists" - I dont care what they say, only what they do- when the communities start pointing out fanatics among them, then I will feel that I can be at peace with muslims - clean your own house.
Can you imagine what the US would be doing if some fanatical Christian sect bombed the Kabbah in mecca? even if they were from somewere besides the US, I can assure you that we wouldnt be just mouthing words - the entire muslim community would be screeming for the US to actually DO something
Cycleon dont forget, that most of the """""""" moderated"""""" Muslim are affraid of these radicals.
Because if you speak up, you will be hit upon. Kinda like in the US, where you talk against Bush then you are anti-american and unpatriotic. So, if you say something against these ****ers, you are not a Muslim, It was propaganded and it is in the mentality of its people.
:(
3andoo - I am quite well aware that they will have to bear the brunt of it if they speak up - but if they are so chicken as to not deal with their own internal problems - they shouldnt bitch when we take care of problems for them - and lets be real - the only reason the radicals can do what they do is because they are supported financially and logistically by the populace - now it may be that it is due to fear rather than love but the point is - I dont really care - the results are the same - if they dont clean house it is our problem because they are too afraid to deal with it themselvesQuote:
Originally Posted by 3Vandoo