So how many believe in God?

**GeoQuadzilla** · 01-13-2004, 01:36 AM

I Figured this might stir up some mixed feelings... So let me know... How many people believe in God or A God? I For one am Catholic and I do very well believe in God... Anyone else care to comment?

**BigGreen** · 01-13-2004, 01:37 AM

Ya know, I'm inclined to say no more often than not, but I guess I align myself with Thomas Jefferson who said something to the effect of "If there does exist a God I would think he would want his creations to at least have the courage and insight to question his existence".

**GeoQuadzilla** · 01-13-2004, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by BigGreen

Ya know, I'm inclined to say no more often than not, but I guess I align myself with Thomas Jefferson who said something to the effect of "If there does exist a God I would think he would want his creations to at least have the courage and insight to question his existence".

That's an insightful way to look at it...

**cascade** · 01-13-2004, 01:47 AM

No, I don't believe in any God. I've done reading on all sorts of beliefs and they all seem alittle out there to me. I've heard things that a lot of religions are just out there to make $$ from people...I don't know. I can see why some people try or want to believe in a higher power, maybe their life is going down hill, or they made a prayer and it came true so they continue believing but I guess if you are brought up with God all around you and your parents bread it into all your life, you're going to think that it's the only way and that's the way things are. To me I wasn't brought up in that way so it's hard for me to believe in that bs.
I mean, if there was an Adam and Eve... wouldn't we all be insest? Yet that's against the religion?
And besides there's just too much science today that proves religion wrong.

**GeoQuadzilla** · 01-13-2004, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by cascade

No, I don't believe in any God. I've done reading on all sorts of beliefs and they all seem alittle out there to me. I've heard things that a lot of religions are just out there to make $$ from people...I don't know. I can see why some people try or want to believe in a higher power, maybe their life is going down hill, or they made a prayer and it came true so they continue believing but I guess if you are brought up with God all around you and your parents bread it into all your life, you're going to think that it's the only way and that's the way things are. To me I wasn't brought up in that way so it's hard for me to believe in that bs.
I mean, if there was an Adam and Eve... wouldn't we all be insest? Yet that's against the religion?
And besides there's just too much science today that proves religion wrong.

I don't believe in the literalness of the bible because people who had wrote it in probably didn't have a clue what was going on around them or concept of time... So i don't believe in religion in the literal 2000 year old bible sence... but I do believe in God none the less.

**rambo** · 01-13-2004, 01:52 AM

I'm currently shopping for deities. Or the lack of them. Suggestions/Offers welcome.

**monster.** · 01-13-2004, 01:54 AM

I do, I'm catholic.. I also believe in the devil, and if you believe in evil you gotta believe there is a greater good...

Oh well, havn't been to church in years though..

**azstud2** · 01-13-2004, 02:10 AM

according to most scriptures/ ancient documents from back then..you will find that most religions in some way acknowledge the existance of jesus christ.they dont all agree on who he was..but in christianity..catholic and most major denominations of religion they do agree he was the son of god. the age of these documents or scrolls if you will is uncontested,proven to correspond with the time of his existance.the documentation written is unchanged and original,also as old as the scrolls its written on. basically,if u can acknowledge science, even if not religion..and documentation ..just like you would if you hear the same story from 5 diff news channels..maybe think of the scrolls as ancient newspapers if you will.then you can conclude the things he did were legit..breakin all natural law.. healing the blind,raising the dead,waking on water. same for others"or prophets" that were somehow given abilities like "parting the red sea" in front of thousands of witnesses ..all documented from scrolls..and then put into the bible. the bible is alot of people and their experiences..interactions with others..including jesus and god. if you can conclude these are un natural ablities,and think somehow these people got them in an unexplained way..then you are demonstrating to yourself that you have faith my friends..faith in something you cannot explain. thats the first thing you need to believe in god..faith. do i believe..yup. (: lates

**cascade** · 01-13-2004, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by azstud2

according to most scriptures/ ancient documents from back then..you will find that most religions in some way acknowledge the existance of jesus christ.they dont all agree on who he was..but in christianity..catholic and most major denominations of religion they do agree he was the son of god. the age of these documents or scrolls if you will is uncontested,proven to correspond with the time of his existance.the documentation written is unchanged and original,also as old as the scrolls its written on. basically,if u can acknowledge science, even if not religion..and documentation ..just like you would if you hear the same story from 5 diff news channels..maybe think of the scrolls as ancient newspapers if you will.then you can conclude the things he did were legit..breakin all natural law.. healing the blind,raising the dead,waking on water. same for others"or prophets" that were somehow given abilities like "parting the red sea" in front of thousands of witnesses ..all documented from scrolls..and then put into the bible. the bible is alot of people and their experiences..interactions with others..including jesus and god. if you can conclude these are un natural ablities,and think somehow these people got them in an unexplained way..then you are demonstrating to yourself that you have faith my friends..faith in something you cannot explain. thats the first thing you need to believe in god..faith. do i believe..yup. (: lates

So....you do believe?

Was that all you? or what passage was that?

**GeoQuadzilla** · 01-13-2004, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by azstud2

according to most scriptures/ ancient documents from back then..you will find that most religions in some way acknowledge the existance of jesus christ.they dont all agree on who he was..but in christianity..catholic and most major denominations of religion they do agree he was the son of god. the age of these documents or scrolls if you will is uncontested,proven to correspond with the time of his existance.the documentation written is unchanged and original,also as old as the scrolls its written on. basically,if u can acknowledge science, even if not religion..and documentation ..just like you would if you hear the same story from 5 diff news channels..maybe think of the scrolls as ancient newspapers if you will.then you can conclude the things he did were legit..breakin all natural law.. healing the blind,raising the dead,waking on water. same for others"or prophets" that were somehow given abilities like "parting the red sea" in front of thousands of witnesses ..all documented from scrolls..and then put into the bible. the bible is alot of people and their experiences..interactions with others..including jesus and god. if you can conclude these are un natural ablities,and think somehow these people got them in an unexplained way..then you are demonstrating to yourself that you have faith my friends..faith in something you cannot explain. thats the first thing you need to believe in god..faith. do i believe..yup. (: lates

well said

**Red Ketchup** · 01-13-2004, 07:53 AM

I don't believe in god or religions...

No offence to anyone who does believe but to me gods are fabrication of weak people who want to feel secure by thinking some magic deity has control on their life. To me religions are nothing more than a way to control people.

Of course my only real belief is "live and let live" so those are nothing more than ***my*** personal opinions... no way you'll even see me cram them down someone elses throat, nor will I even debate it...

Red

**hoss827** · 01-13-2004, 08:04 AM

I do believe in God...I'm a Catholic, but there is one quote that I always abide by,

"Religion is like a lift in peoples shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don't try to get me to wear your shoes."++--__==George Carilin==__--++

**SonGoku** · 01-13-2004, 08:13 AM

I don't believe in any god or religion. IMO religion has caused man kind more suffering than any thing else. Just think of how many wars have been carried out in the name of religion. To my knowledge buddism is the only religion that haven't caused any wars!? I'm not a historian though, so I could very well be wrong.

Think many religions was created to explain things that people didn't understand or to some how give some kind of meaning to their life.

I think the world would be a better place without religion.

**ripped4fsu** · 01-13-2004, 08:21 AM

I believe in the God of my understanding... Jesus Christ. I do have a problem with organized religions... it's all about the money... those con artist with the bad hair on TV are robbing millions of seniors citizens out of their retirement money. But who piss me off even more are the Jehovah witness. they prey on the weak minded, control their lives, and clean out their bank accounts. IMO they are a cult, and boy do I love it when they knock on MY door, worst mistake they ever made!

**palme** · 01-13-2004, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

I don't believe in god or religions...

Same here.

kc · 01-13-2004, 08:28 AM

I believe in something, tho exactly what that is I don't think I could explain and it is constantly changing. The subject facinates me and I am always reading and researching and trying to figure out how different beliefs started, where they came from and who's idea it was. I believe that science and god are so closely linked (contrary to popular belief) and hope that someday I'll be organized enough to come up with my theory so that when people ask me this question, I can answer it intelligently. ....The yes or no answer....yes

***Pheedno*** · 01-13-2004, 08:35 AM

I have a theory on life, it's meaning, our creation, etc; but will refrain from typing the pages it would take to accurately explain it. It is an idea that most would find proposterous, but it's scientifically feasible, as well as free for spirtual development and quality of life.

I am Deist and do not believe in organized religion. I do believe they are neccessary to maintain civility in our different societies; as too many equate morals with religion

, but on the grand scheme of things, I think peoples conception of god came about from the need for comfort about their own mortality.

**spywizard** · 01-13-2004, 08:39 AM

Actually every "Scientist" that has set out to disprove the existance in God has finished thier bodies of work believing not only in God, but in the truth that Jesus was indeed the "Christ, or Messiah" (they are one in the same)..

Do you believe in the sun coming up in the morning?? of course you do.. you have seen it every day.. but you might not know of the reaction that takes place for that to occure.. you just believe...

What is worse a person who is presented with the evidence, and does not believe, or a person that believes without full understanding of how something happens..

or to loosely quote..

which is better... am man who is given all the proof in the world, and believes, or a man who believes out of pure love.. not ignorance, but out of a desire that is felt from within...

I understand if you don't get it.. but you might someday.. and if that day doens't come before you die.... and only on judgement day .....i pray the God of Isreal, the creator of heaven and earth has enough mercy, and love for you to forgive you.. even though he already sent his only son to die at mankinds hands in atonement for your sins, agains man, God, and yourself...

I'm done, sorry if i preached alittle there..

Originally Posted by cascade

No, I don't believe in any God. I've done reading on all sorts of beliefs and they all seem alittle out there to me. I've heard things that a lot of religions are just out there to make $$ from people...I don't know. I can see why some people try or want to believe in a higher power, maybe their life is going down hill, or they made a prayer and it came true so they continue believing but I guess if you are brought up with God all around you and your parents bread it into all your life, you're going to think that it's the only way and that's the way things are. To me I wasn't brought up in that way so it's hard for me to believe in that bs.
I mean, if there was an Adam and Eve... wouldn't we all be insest? Yet that's against the religion?
And besides there's just too much science today that proves religion wrong.

**Mart651** · 01-13-2004, 08:45 AM

I believe in God and Jesus Christ. I would never push my beliefs on anyone. When they find their life in shambles and come to me for help. I always tell them that God is the only thing that keeps my life going so well. Thats why my life seems so perfect to all my friends.

**Devourer** · 01-13-2004, 08:49 AM

okay okay. im GOD! actually this is my world and you are all figments of my imagination created for my entertainment. now dance monkeys!

**spywizard** · 01-13-2004, 08:56 AM

Bump......................

Originally Posted by mart651

I believe in God and Jesus Christ. I would never push my beliefs on anyone. When they find their life in shambles and come to me for help. I always tell them that God is the only thing that keeps my life going so well. Thats why my life seems so perfect to all my friends.

**sin** · 01-13-2004, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by spywizard

Actually every "Scientist" that has set out to disprove the existance in God has finished thier bodies of work believing not only in God, but in the truth that Jesus was indeed the "Christ, or Messiah" (they are one in the same)..

Do you believe in the sun coming up in the morning?? of course you do.. you have seen it every day.. but you might not know of the reaction that takes place for that to occure.. you just believe...

What is worse a person who is presented with the evidence, and does not believe, or a person that believes without full understanding of how something happens..

or to loosely quote..

which is better... am man who is given all the proof in the world, and believes, or a man who believes out of pure love.. not ignorance, but out of a desire that is felt from within...

I understand if you don't get it.. but you might someday.. and if that day doens't come before you die.... and only on judgement day .....i pray the God of Isreal, the creator of heaven and earth has enough mercy, and love for you to forgive you.. even though he already sent his only son to die at mankinds hands in atonement for your sins, agains man, God, and yourself...

I'm done, sorry if i preached alittle there..

EVERY scientist? thats a rather bold statement. along with that are you implying that scientists purposely set out to disprove religion? i can think of a couple (newton, galileo) who spent years trying to prove the existence of god, and in the end knew that they fell considerably short.

**cb25** · 01-13-2004, 09:33 AM

"I've learned that there are 3 things you should never discuss with anyone. Religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin." - Linus, from "The Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown"

smart boy...

personally, i believe in God as I understand him. I can see the good sides of organized religions, but don't find myself to fit in any of them, as they do have problems. I can also see the good in different religions, and most of them contain central themes...so my beliefs are an amalgam of many things...

I really like the quote BG...

**spywizard** · 01-13-2004, 09:36 AM

1st off... i stated that every scientest that set out to disprove the existance of God.... Newton and Galileo were all old world scientist.... You know the world is round don't you..

My statements are supported with current data (last 10 years data) from Scientist that are alive and speaking at universities..

anything else????????

Originally Posted by sin

EVERY scientist? thats a rather bold statement. along with that are you implying that scientists purposely set out to disprove religion? i can think of a couple (newton, galileo) who spent years trying to prove the existence of god, and in the end knew that they fell considerably short.

***Pheedno*** · 01-13-2004, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by spywizard

1st off... i stated that every scientest that set out to disprove the existance of God.... Newton and Galileo were all old world scientist.... You know the world is round don't you..

My statements are supported with current data (last 10 years data) from Scientist that are alive and speaking at universities..

anything else????????

Can you list EVERY scientist in the past 10yrs that specifically set out to disprove gods existence? I find that hard to believe.

The absolute proof of God can never be confirmed or defied, as faith in god is what drives it's existence. So to a member of a church, their faith in itself is proof, where as people such as myself, believe that faith is either dillusional, or misunderstood of the meaning in which god is. If god(as the Christian church see it) was in fact proven, then faith would be obsolete. No need for faith when the proof sits in front of your eyes

**spywizard** · 01-13-2004, 09:54 AM

To attend church is not to believe... Faith in God was the initial contect of this thread.......... Proof in God's existance is not what i stated... I stated once again that every scientist that has set out to disprove God's existance (god and religion are 2 different things..) has come to the conclusion that God does exist......................

This is a statement in fact...

Originally Posted by Pheedno

Can you list EVERY scientist in the past 10yrs that specifically set out to disprove gods existence? I find that hard to believe.

The absolute proof of God can never be confirmed or defied, as faith in god is what drives it's existence. So to a member of a church, their faith in itself is proof, where as people such as myself, believe that faith is either dillusional, or misunderstood of the meaning in which god is. If god(as the Christian church see it) was in fact proven, then faith would be obsolete. No need for faith when the proof sits in front of your eyes

**Mart651** · 01-13-2004, 09:57 AM

I hope no one here thinks by posting there oppinion it is going to change anyones mind about what they believe. Remember all you can do is offend someone elses beliefs by acting like yours is right and theirs is wrong. If you disagree with someone it is fine but I would suggest you keep it from getting to deep. I don't agree with half of you here but obviously what you think has no effect at all on my life. So I would never let your oppinion come in between our friendship.

**spywizard** · 01-13-2004, 10:03 AM

I never tell anyone that they are wrong...

I have responded to others replys to my statements.. telling me i am wrong..

The sky is not Green.. no matter how many times you say it is..

But your point is well taken......

and i agree...............

So with that said...

I refer to my previous quote.......................

All will know that God is The ALPHA and OMEGA... my hopes are that you (everyone) come to know that before you are judged by him... And if not....that he will have the mercy and Love that we cannot understand, but will have for you... (not just you, or others but all of mankind..)

Peace out............

Originally Posted by mart651

I hope no one here thinks by posting there oppinion it is going to change anyones mind about what they believe. Remember all you can do is offend someone elses beliefs by acting like yours is right and theirs is wrong. If you disagree with someone it is fine but I would suggest you keep it from getting to deep. I don't agree with half of you here but obviously what you think has no effect at all on my life. So I would never let your oppinion come in between our friendship.

**sin** · 01-13-2004, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by spywizard

1st off... i stated that every scientest that set out to disprove the existance of God.... Newton and Galileo were all old world scientist.... You know the world is round don't you..

My statements are supported with current data (last 10 years data) from Scientist that are alive and speaking at universities..

anything else????????

first of all i love the holier than thou thing that your developing, very typical christian. secondly id love to see your sources, not the article but the source that this article came from.

***Pheedno*** · 01-13-2004, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by spywizard

Proof in God's existance is not what i stated... I stated once again that every scientist that has set out to disprove God's existance (god and religion are 2 different things..) has come to the conclusion that God does exist......................

This is a statement in fact...

If your stating that every scientist that has set out to disprove gods existence has come to the conclusion that god does exist; then you are in fact stating proof in gods existence. Unless your meaning that each of the scientists discovered his own faith, not scientifically proved the existence of god that could not be denied.

Mart, I agree. Allthough I'm deist, and do not live the Christian way; my belief is that every person should do what makes their quality of life better. If Christianity, Bhuddism, Muslim, or whatever lifes belief is what provides that quality of life, then it is the individuals passage to a content tenure here on Earth.

No grudges or pressing opinions, in the end we'll all have to agree to disagree. A intellectual stimulating debate though is healthy for our on-line friendships IMO though

and spywizard, I'm still waiting on that list

**GeoQuadzilla** · 01-13-2004, 10:21 AM

A lot of people have a lot of different opinions which is good but most seem to believe in God or a higher power which is a good thing i think... Cause Lord knows we all need something to believe in and there is nothing wrong with that

**Mart651** · 01-13-2004, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Pheedno

Mart, I agree. Allthough I'm deist, and do not live the Christian way; my belief is that every person should do what makes their quality of life better. If Christianity, Bhuddism, Muslim, or whatever lifes belief is what provides that quality of life, then it is the individuals passage to a content tenure here on Earth.

No grudges or pressing opinions, in the end we'll all have to agree to disagree. A intellectual stimulating debate though is healthy for our on-line friendships IMO though

I don't know much about intellectual stimulating debates but I'm right and all of you are wrong. So na na na boo boo.

**spywizard** · 01-13-2004, 10:22 AM

Cool.. that would be the logical assumption..

When people as what religion i am i state that i am a christian ...says so on the dog tags.......

Now to be Christian... means literally to be a follower in Christ...

I have yet to find a church (a body of believers) that encompass that.. and at the same time not judge people..

It's a sad thing.. to study all of ones life, and come to the understanding that people truely don't want to know.. they want to be told what to do, and to do 1 then 2 then step 3...

Agnostic, athiest,..... whatever.... most that i speak with just want knowledge... most have been "Bible thumped" at some time in thier life..

Bhuddism, Muslim... are different... but a religion to a church.. or belief system..............or prophet............

Peace out.. I too have love for them... but with a firm hand.. I will not call gray.. light in order to not offend..... and at the same time i fall short on sharing the same level of love and mercy that God has for us..

For you see.. I am not God, I am but a sinner seeking forgivness..

and with that i ask for your forgivness if i have offended.. if something i have said plants a seed... then my job is done here..

Originally Posted by Pheedno

If your stating that every scientist that has set out to disprove gods existence has come to the conclusion that god does exist; then you are in fact stating proof in gods existence. Unless your meaning that each of the scientists discovered his own faith, not scientifically proved the existence of god that could not be denied.

Mart, I agree. Allthough I'm deist, and do not live the Christian way; my belief is that every person should do what makes their quality of life better. If Christianity, Bhuddism, Muslim, or whatever lifes belief is what provides that quality of life, then it is the individuals passage to a content tenure here on Earth.

No grudges or pressing opinions, in the end we'll all have to agree to disagree. A intellectual stimulating debate though is healthy for out on-line friendships IMO though

and spywizard, I'm still waiting on that list

**Devourer** · 01-13-2004, 10:25 AM

am i the only solipsist???

**sin** · 01-13-2004, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by spywizard

Cool.. that would be the logical assumption..

When people as what religion i am i state that i am a christian ...says so on the dog tags.......

Now to be Christian... means literally to be a follower in Christ...

I have yet to find a church (a body of believers) that encompass that.. and at the same time not judge people..

It's a sad thing.. to study all of ones life, and come to the understanding that people truely don't want to know.. they want to be told what to do, and to do 1 then 2 then step 3...

Agnostic, athiest,..... whatever.... most that i speak with just want knowledge... most have been "Bible thumped" at some time in thier life..

Bhuddism, Muslim... are different... but a religion to a church.. or belief system..............or prophet............

Peace out.. I too have love for them... but with a firm hand.. I will not call gray.. light in order to not offend..... and at the same time i fall short on sharing the same level of love and mercy that God has for us..

For you see.. I am not God, I am but a sinner seeking forgivness..

and with that i ask for your forgivness if i have offended.. if something i have said plants a seed... then my job is done here..

whoa, nevermind i guess i was wayyyy off on that holier than thou thing.

**BUYLONGTERM** · 01-13-2004, 10:34 AM

I totally believe in GOD. I also believe in Life after death? Why? I have proof, but won't get into it.

**GeoQuadzilla** · 01-13-2004, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by buylongterm

I totally believe in GOD. I also believe in Life after death? Why? I have proof, but won't get into it.

Well if you ever feel like telling us the story behind it... I'm sure a lot of us would like to hear it bro

**Elliot** · 01-13-2004, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Pheedno

I do believe they are neccessary to maintain civility in our different societies; as too many equate morals with religion

, but on the grand scheme of things, I think peoples conception of god came about from the need for comfort about their own mortality.

wow.. he hit the nail on the head.. religion is a way to control people with out uproars or revloutions.. whoes going to revolt god? I do belive in god i dont belive in the structure of the catholic church since its bull**** and anyone who disputes it hasnt read a paper in the last 2 years.. for anyone who thinks that the church was good, ever, read about the crusades or the Indulgences (sp?) that paid your way into heaven.. i think its ignorant not to think that theres a higher power since life does not start it self.. im not saying adam and eve cause thats a fairytale... church is just a place to keep a presons morale up cause they feel they done good.. either way religion is a structure just as an goverment we pay them taxes (some as much as 15% of thier salary) they tell us whats right and wrong and what to do and what not to do and if we break the rules they condem us to hell.. **** whats worst then hell?

**tryingtogetbig** · 01-13-2004, 10:48 AM

I hate people that tell me that if I don't believe the way they do then I will spend eternity in hell when "judgement day" comes around!

Don't feel sorry for me or pray for me because of my beliefs...worry about yourself and get on with it!

peace,

ttgb

**LuvMuhRoids** · 01-13-2004, 10:51 AM

Taking a few philosophy classes I have read a lot of interesting views, statements, and arguments of many philosophers. All point either way. IMO I lean towards no God. Religion was created to control the people and to explain the unexplainable.

There are two good philosophers come to mind that give very good arguments to and for the existence of God. If anyone knows of these two then it makes for good argument to cite them both.

Thomas Aquanis probably was the greatest philosopher to support the existence of God. He states five reasons to the existence of a God. "Proving God's Existence from Experience" is the sum. His first and main reason is the argument of motion. Basically someone had to start motion somewhere. Cause and effect theory.

Then there are several reasons why god does not exist.

1. The theodicé problem: If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good.

2. The ontological evidence

3. The meaning of the word existence: God is defined to be infinite, in which case it is not possible for there to be anything other than god because "infinite" is all-inclusive. But if there is nothing other than god then either god cannot be said to exist for the reason just explained, or god is the known world, in which case, by definition, god is not a god.

4. William of Ockham (Ockham's razor): If we are to investigate the world and build our views of life from the world, we cannot assume a god. Because adding god as an explanation leaves as many, if not more questions than it explains, god has to be removed with Ockham's razor if we are serious in investigating the world.

5. Some things are impossible to do: if omnipotence is a relative quality there is no way to tell omnipotence from non-omnipotence. For omnipotence to be a valid expression it must be absolute, but we have no objective criteria to measure omnipotence so the word itself is useless.

6. Omnipotence is impossible due to paradoxes: God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If god has no free will god is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If god stands above time he can not do that and has no free will.

7. The void creator: If everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If moral must come from god, god lacks moral. If logic comes from god, god is illogic. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void.

There is a philosopher that stated 5 reasons to the non-existence of God. I cant find him in my notes. If anyone can quote him please.

http://hope.homedns.org/archives/000140.html