College Sports and Homosexuality/Bisexuality

[BDTR]

Alright, you have me there, its not a sexual preference, but what about beastiatly? Thats hardly coprophagic in comparison to homosexuality.

1) Eating feces is Coprophagia is a specific behaviour, as are other behaviours such as S&M, cross-dressing, or even anal intercourse, not a "sexual preference."

2) How is complaining of ridicule for divulging one's coprophagic behaviour a double standard?

[Tock]

Where did i say sex for pleasure was against the laws of nature?

You wrote: "Normal human behavior is to do what all species are here to do, pro-create."
I'm sure you confine yourself only to "normal human behaviour," and the rest of us can only profit from following your "normal" example.

[MMC78]

Tock, you're just putting words into his mouth now.

Most people on here DON'T have any issue with what you do with your private life in your own bed room. Just don't preach like a born-again Christain.

[BDTR]

You took me out of context here, when i said that I was refering to the fact that the most important duty of humans is to pro-create, we're not diving into other aspects of life here, i'm simply stating a fact that if homosexuals were in fact NOT a deviation from the norm, humanity would not exist, plain and simple.

You always have to have the last word, huh?

You wrote: "Normal human behavior is to do what all species are here to do, pro-create."
I'm sure you confine yourself only to "normal human behaviour," and the rest of us can only profit from following your "normal" example.

[Tock]

Ah . . . first you say:

"Normal human behavior is to do what all species are here to do, pro-create.

Then you say:

Fornication with the opposite sex for both pleasure and pro-creation is perfectly natural as its meant to be. .

No doubt some folks will breathe a sigh of releif to know that you now allow both sex for pro-creation and sex for pleasure.
Perhaps you can (clearly) explain why you allow this only for same sex couples (or menage trois, quartets, or quintets)? Are you concerned that if 5% of the population confines itself to gay sex that the planet will be in dire danger of becoming de-populated?

[Warrior]

Tock, you're just putting words into his mouth now.

Most people on here DON'T have any issue with what you do with your private life in your own bed room. Just don't preach like a born-again Christain.

hehe

[BDTR]

Is there a reason that you're resorting to disecting the semantics of my posts to win an arguement? We're going in circles right now and grasping at straws to convince eachother that the other is right, this is absolutely pointless. There is NO arguement here, you can have sex with sheep if you like in the privacy of your bedroom as long as the sheep is a willing participent, that doesn't mean i'm obligated to think its right. I'm not your master or anyone elses but myself, I make choices for myself and hold opinions for myself, no one else. You like gay sex? AWESOME! Congradulations! I dont care. You like girls and guys? Excellent, more power to ya. I think its deviant behavior? So what? How does it affect you in your daily life? I'm not the president, i'm not out lobbying against gay rights, i'm not on the streets beating up gays. We're absolutely inconsequential to eachothers existance, so why dont we leave it at that?

[Tock]

[QUOTE=bdtr]As for my rigid standards.. I have lived most of my life like my viking ancestors had, sex to the degree to where it would be considered reckless by most and hedonist to a severe degree, but the way it was meant to be, with the opposite sex.
QUOTE]


Ah, I see . . .
Now we have the expanded version of what you evidently consider "Normal:"

"Normal human behavior is to do what all species are here to do, pro-create.
"Fornication with the opposite sex for both pleasure and pro-creation is perfectly natural as its meant to be. .
"Sex to the degree where it would be considered reckless . . ."

No doubt everyone on this planet would benefit by following your shining example. By gosh and by golly, there's no arguing that you've got the guaranteed formula for successful relationships and happy living. We'll just pass these doctrines to the kids in high school and check back in a couple years and see just how well they're doing. And certainly these tid-bits of advice will be of no small utility to couples everywhere, married and otherwise. Sex for pro-creation, sex for pleasure, and by golly make it reckless and hedonistic. Six months of this ought to noticably change any relationship, wouldn't you agree?

[BDTR]

Wow you keep ripping me out of context and spinning it around to suit your arguement. Hedonistic in my past when it came to woman? Absolutely. Now i'm settled in a relationship and NOT like that anymore. Do I find anything wrong with my past or regret sleeping with a lot of woman? Nope, loved every minute of it, but people grow up.

[Tock]

We can sit around and argue all day on this issue and go back and forth "no its natural" "no its unnatural" but that'll go absolutely nowhere.

That's because you've got no data to back up your assertion. While I, on the other hand, can cite zoological references to homosexual behaviour in animals.



--http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/2001-spinner%20dolphins.html
Kyodo News International, 9 July 2001, from O Globo
Wild dolphins off Brazil engage in homosexual behavior

-----

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil


Brazilian scientists have reported for the first time ever homosexual behavior among dolphins living in their natural habitat, a Brazilian daily said Monday.

A team of Brazilian marine experts was studying the behavior and reproduction habits of the stenella longirostris species [long-snouted spinner dolphin] at the archipelago of Fernando de Noronha off northeastern Brazil when they identified homosexual behavior among males and females dolphins, the O Globo said.

Scientists at the Rotator Dolphin Center have said sexual activities among dolphins outside their reproductive season have the objective of giving sexual pleasure for the species of mammals, a rare behavior among animals. “We have reported so far at least 21 dolphins in the course of homosexual behavior, including oral sex among males,” José Martins, coordinator of a local marine research center, told the daily.

Sex among males is easier to testify because their sexual organs are external, according to the head researcher of the center, which operates in partnership with federal environmentalist agency Ibama.

The researchers say sex is prevalent among dolphins because they live in big herds, which may reach as many as 1,200 dolphins.

The species studied is typical to those who live in open sea, and Fernando de Noronha is a favorable site for observation because the dolphins swim daily into a natural bay at sunrise, according to researchers.

The stenella longirostris, which may reach 2 meters in length and weigh up to 90 kilograms, may live up to 30 years in the wilderness and use the archipelago as a natural shelter from sharks, their natural predators.

The Fernando de Noronha archipelago is an isolated group of 21 volcanic islands located in the South Equatorial Atlantic, approximately 240 kilometers from the continent.

The Brazilian government has declared some 70% of the archipelago a National Marine Park with small-scaled tourist activities in order to preserve the land and marine environment and preserve the scientific activities.

====

http://www.salon.com/it/feature/1999...5featurea.html
The FABULOUS
- - - - - - - - kingdom of GAY animals


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A BIOLOGIST OFFERS THE FIRST VISION OF A TANTALIZINGLY DIVERSE NATURAL WORLD: NOT ALL ANIMALS ARE STRAIGHT ARROWS.


BY SUSAN McCARTHY | The scientist gasps and drops the binoculars. A notebook falls from astonished hands. Graduate students mutter in alarm. Nobody wants to be the one to tell the granting agency what they're seeing.

A female ape wraps her legs around another female, "rubbing her own clitoris against her partner's while emitting screams of enjoyment." The researcher explains: It's a form of greeting behavior. Or reconciliation. Possibly food-exchange behavior. It's certainly not sex. Not lesbian sex. Not hot lesbian sex.

Six bighorn rams cluster, rubbing, nuzzling and mounting each other. "Aggressosexual behavior," the biologist explains. A way of establishing dominance.

A zoo penguin approaches another, bowing winsomely. The birds look identical and a zoogoer asks how to tell males and females apart. "We can tell by their behavior," a researcher explains. "Eric is courting Dora." A keeper arrives with news: Eric has laid an egg.

They've been keeping it from us: There are homosexual and bisexual animals, ranging from charismatic megafauna like mountain gorillas to cats, dogs and guinea pigs. There are transgendered animals, transvestite animals (who adopt the behavior of the other gender but don't have sex with their own), and animals who live in bisexual triads and quartets.

Bruce Bagemihl spent 10 years scouring the biological literature for data on alternative sexuality in animals to write "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity," 768 pages about exactly what goes on at "South Park's" Big Gay Al's Big Gay Animal Sanctuary. The first section discusses animal sexuality in its many forms and the ways biologists have tried to explain it away. The second section, "A Wondrous Bestiary," describes unconventional sexuality in nearly 200 mammals and birds -- orangutans, whales, warthogs, fruit bats, chaffinches.

Bagemihl's dry style is obedient to the precepts of scientific writing. He explains why animals can be called homosexual or bisexual, but not gay, lesbian or queer, and he follows the rules -- though "homosexual" frightens some who prefer terms like male-only social interactions, multifemale associations, unisexuality, isosexuality or intrasexuality. (Fortunately, as a book reviewer, I am not bound by this rule. We're talking gay animals!) Yet the book is thrillingly dense with new ideas, and with scandalous animal anecdotes. In other words, an ideal bedside read.

[Warrior]

mmmm... kay?

[BDTR]

How does the fact that homosexuality is also present in non-humans support your arguement that homosexuality IS NOT a deviation? Apparently it is also one that affects other animals as well. So?

[Tock]

Also, why do you constantly try and coax me into insulting you by insinuating i'm gay or bisexual? It's not going to work, and its rather cliche to do the whole "if you think gays are wrong you must be gay" schtick over and over.



Do what you want with your life, i'll say it 1000000000 times.

1) I inferred nothing of the sort. I merely suggested a course of action if you could not stop thinking about gay sex.
You seem a bit touchy . . . perhaps Shakespere's line does indeed apply: "Methinks he protests too much!" (no insinuation, just wondering)

2) Thank you for giving your permission.
Thank you for giving your permission.
Thank you for giving your permission.
Thank you for giving your permission.
. . . repeat 1000000000 times . . .

[BDTR]

Why do you have to turn an honest attempt to resolve this arguement into a sarcastic retort? We covered this.. YOU DONT NEED MY PERMISSION. Thats the beauty of it all

[Tock]

Alright, you have me there, its not a sexual preference, but what about beastiatly? Thats hardly coprophagic in comparison to homosexuality.

What about bestiality? It's a passtime enjoyed by both straight and gay farmers. There's no telling if that steak or hamburger in your freezer has been buggered by some straight West Texas farmboy . . .
Bon appetit . . .

[Tock]

Tock, you're just putting words into his mouth now.

Most people on here DON'T have any issue with what you do with your private life in your own bed room. Just don't preach like a born-again Christain.

What words?

Look, if someone posts some rediculous notion like, "The only normal sex is heterosexual sex," I'm going to challenge it. I've done so methodically and with courtesy.

I make it a point not to cram my notions regarding sexual orientation down anyone's throat, and I don't appreciate it when other people cram their notions down mine.
And unlike the preachings of obnoxious born-again christians, I don't bring the subject up in conversations, unless it happens to be a part of whatever story I'm relating . . . As in "Joe and I went to China on our 21st anniversary," or "The cops arrested us for holding hands in public."
Since this board centers on topics foreign to my sex life, I rarely have occasion to bring the subject up. So, you will be unlikely to see me address the subject unless someone has disparaged gays and lesbians in some way.

I don't ask for much . . . just be civil, don't overgeneralize, and avoid offensive God-like pronouncements like "Normal sex is only heterosexual" and I'll be cool.
Yes, everyone has an opinion, and if someone wants to preface a god-like pronouncement with, "In my opinion, gays suck" (an opinion not without a degree of merit), or "As far as I'm concerned gays should be rounded up and beat senseless . . ." that's fine, too. An opinion is only an opinion, but an all-encompassing Decree from Someone Who Think's He's God who states without reservation, "Only sex that makes babies is allowed," well, that guy is standing on a pedestal that needs to be knocked over, and I don't mind admitting that I rather enjoy doing that sort of thing.

I hope that's not asking for too much . . .
--Tock

[Tock]

You took me out of context here, when i said that I was refering to the fact that the most important duty of humans is to pro-create, we're not diving into other aspects of life here, i'm simply stating a fact that if homosexuals were in fact NOT a deviation from the norm, humanity would not exist, plain and simple.

You always have to have the last word, huh?

=================

1) That is not what you wrote.
You wrote:
"Normal human behavior is to do what all species are here to do, pro-create." You did not mention anything about "the most important duty of humans is to pro-create."

In the future, perhaps you will write what you mean to say. Not every person who reads your posts has ESP and can divine what thoughts you forgot to include in your writing.


2) Yes, but something tells me that you're not going to let me have it.

[BDTR]

No, if i was on a pedestal and had a god complex i would say "normal sex is only heterosexual, all others will be struck dead" not, "in my opinion normal sex is heterosexual". Big difference. Why can't you just let this go on a happy note? You HAVE to keep pushing the envelope for NO REASON.

I dont have a god complex and im not putting myself on a pedestal, although you seem to have a jesus complex climbing up the cross and nailing yourself on for the night.

Oh and please dont lump me with fundamentalist christians, I plan on going to Valhalla when i die, not heaven.

so in closing... do what you want (not permission, its your right!!!), have sex with whoever you want, get married to whoever you want, I DONT CARE.

[Tock]

Is there a reason that you're resorting to disecting the semantics of my posts to win an arguement?

I just like to be thorough.
I usually don't bother, but your comment caught me in a mood, plus I've got some time right now, and I haven't posted in a while, so I figured, "why not?"

And no, I'm not "dissecting your semantics." I am instead challenging your assertions and your logic. Perhaps you are unaccustomed to having your statements methodically examined. Tough. If you're embarrassed at having your assertions picked apart, then I suggest you either preface them with "In my opinion," or "I heard somewhere" or "So-and-so said" instead of saying something stupid like "Normal human behavior is to do what all species are here to do, pro-create." A global, god-like pronouncement like that is an easy target for criticism. And, as we've seen, it's been easy to pick apart, and you yourself have modified this assertion, although in a fashion I doubt would be of much use to anyone wishing to live a happy life.

But all other things aside, it's been an interesting and enjoyable debate, yes?
As the philosopher Joseph Joubert sagely observed, "It is better to debate a point without settling it than to settle a point without debating it."

[BDTR]

Actually no, all my posts should be taken as my opinion unless othewise stated. If i had posted "ITS A FACT THAT...." that would be different, but after all, we're all here offering opinions, no? From now on, take all that i say as MY PERSONAL OPINION unless i say angels came down and told me, ok? As far as me being embarresed by you.. no not at all because it is still my opinion that im right and you're wrong and im sure you feel the exact opposite. So why dont we leave it at that? I've stayed up far past what time i would have liked to now arguing with someone about something neither one of our minds will change on, so now i'm going to retire for the night. It's been fun though.

[cjp85]

The experts DO say it runs genetically in the family.

Who the hell are the experts? Some activist who want to make people belive in their head that its just another matter of science?

[Tock]

Wow you keep ripping me out of context and spinning it around to suit your arguement. Hedonistic in my past when it came to woman? Absolutely. Now i'm settled in a relationship and NOT like that anymore. Do I find anything wrong with my past or regret sleeping with a lot of woman? Nope, loved every minute of it, but people grow up.

Look, you said:

"I have lived most of my life like my viking ancestors had, sex to the degree to where it would be considered reckless by most and hedonist to a severe degree, but the way it was meant to be, with the opposite sex."

You didn't mention that you don't live that way any longer. How am I supposed to know that if you don't say so? What do you think I am, a mind reader?

But still, you express no regret for the reckless and hedonistic living you seem to have enjoyed, so I suppose it is not a lifestyle you would necessarily recommend other folks avoid? And if my presumption is not overly presumptious, then I can only wonder why an individual of your solid moral principles can be comfortable with hedonism and its attendant health risks and yet harbor such solid reservations toward, say, a monogamous gay relationship.

While I may wallow in wonder for years, I would be happier if you would resolve to make your posts more clear, rather than have to continually keep modifying them to make yourself understood.

[BDTR]

You have me all wrong, honestly. This has nothing to do with morals, trust me on this. To quote De Sade "All universal moral principles are idle fantasies". I'm not arguing whether you're going to heaven or hell or whether is moral or not. I'm arguing whether homosexuality is a genetic deviation or not, plain and simple.

Look, you said:

"I have lived most of my life like my viking ancestors had, sex to the degree to where it would be considered reckless by most and hedonist to a severe degree, but the way it was meant to be, with the opposite sex."

You didn't mention that you don't live that way any longer. How am I supposed to know that if you don't say so? What do you think I am, a mind reader?

But still, you express no regret for the reckless and hedonistic living you seem to have enjoyed, so I suppose it is not a lifestyle you would necessarily recommend other folks avoid? And if my presumption is not overly presumptious, then I can only wonder why an individual of your solid moral principles can be comfortable with hedonism and its attendant health risks and yet harbor such solid reservations toward, say, a monogamous gay relationship.

While I may wallow in wonder for years, I would be happier if you would resolve to make your posts more clear, rather than have to continually keep modifying them to make yourself understood.

[Tock]

How does the fact that homosexuality is also present in non-humans support your arguement that homosexuality IS NOT a deviation? Apparently it is also one that affects other animals as well. So?

===========


If zoologists can expect to find a percentage of homosexual dolphins, pigeons, dogs, horses, etc etc etc in every population, why should it be a surprise to find a similar percentage of homosexuals in human populations?
If it is normal to find homosexual birds and mammals in nature, then it cannot be considered "unnatural" to find homosexual humans, either.

Look, in the human population, there are all sorts of variations in athletic ability, in intelligence, in musical ability, etc etc. Whenever an individual happens to be able to perform at the edges of the range of what's typical, it does not indicate a sort of "deviation" that merits social prohibitions. The variations may be atypical, a "deviation" from what is considered "average," but hardly anything that, in the case of gay people, merits social prohibitions or disdain.

In short, homosexuality may not be typical, you could even say it "deviates from the norm," but it is still within the range of normal human sexuality.

[Tock]

No, if i was on a pedestal and had a god complex i would say "normal sex is only heterosexual, all others will be struck dead" not, "in my opinion normal sex is heterosexual". Big difference. Why can't you just let this go on a happy note? You HAVE to keep pushing the envelope for NO REASON.
.

When you say, "normal sex is only heterosexual," are you also saying that "homosexual sex is abnormal?"
If you are, then we have a significant disagreement, the sort of which I am inclined to pursue, unless you wish to withdraw from the discussion . . .
IMHO, since it is NORMAL to find a small homosexual population in many bird and mammal populations, and since humans are also a part of nature, it's NORMAL to find homosexuals, doing homosexual things, in the human population as well.
So. Normal sex is homosexual, Normal sex is also heterosexual. No difference. Why can't YOU just let this go on a happy note? You have to keep pushing the envelope for NO REASON.

[Tock]

. . . it is still my opinion that im right and you're wrong and im sure you feel the exact opposite. So why dont we leave it at that? I've stayed up far past what time i would have liked to now arguing with someone about something neither one of our minds will change on, so now i'm going to retire for the night. It's been fun though.

Well . . . we could flip a coin, and whoever wins will be "right."
Gee, I've got a quarter right here in my pocket . . .
Ok, I'll take heads . . .
( flips coin . . . catches, and it lands . . . )
Yep, it's heads. I must be "right."

Well, I guess that settles it . . . I'm right and you're wrong.
No problem, pal . . . I'm used to it . . .

Take care, and sleep well . . .
--Tock

[Tock]

You have me all wrong, honestly. This has nothing to do with morals, trust me on this. To quote De Sade "All universal moral principles are idle fantasies". I'm not arguing whether you're going to heaven or hell or whether is moral or not. I'm arguing whether homosexuality is a genetic deviation or not, plain and simple.

Genetic?

Now's a fine time to bring the word "Genetic" into the conversation! You never mentioned this before! Why bring it up now?

I have no idea what part genetics plays in homosexuality. I don't know if the "experts" have figured that question out. They've found that in identical twins where one twin is gay, more often than not, the other twin is gay as well (at least, more often than is found in the non-twin population).
see http://salmon.psy.plym.ac.uk/year1/p.../genetics.html

My guess is that both genetics and environment control a person's sexual orientation, and probably not in equal degrees in different individuals. But whether or not genetics plays a part, what difference does it make? I can tell you with certainty that no one (in their right mind anyway) makes a conscious choice to be gay. I suspect that there are, instead, a lot of gay people out there who are trying to live a heterosexual life, trying to repress their natural feelings and live up to the social expectations of other people. That's tragic . . . and I could get on a rant here, but I won't . . .

But anyway, I sure wish you'd start off with clear statements rather than continually modify them (this time adding the issue of genetics) as we go along . . . oy vey maria . . .

[Tock]

That's is, eh?
Guess i'll turn in too . . . it's (ohmygosh) quarter to five am . . .
It's been fun . . . oh, too bad about losing the coin toss . . .
--Tock

[Pete235]

It's funny you say that. The bible has been around for a long fuking time. People who don't wake up soon, ain't going to wake up at all.

Actually the bible has been around for a little over 2000 years....the earth has had life for millions and millions of years. The whole religion arguement carries very little weight with me.

[Carlos_E]

Hmm... Someone remind me periodically to NEVER get into an argument with Tock.

Thanks
-Carlos

[50%Natural]

Hey, you need to chill. I was here in defense of you because you have a right to express yourself. But attacking the entire board isn't going to get you any where. I totally disagree with 50%Natural. He's posting as if he speaks for the entire board and that is not the case.

Kinda funny how I got the biggest response. Like I said, I don't care if you're gay. Whatever fine. I said a majority on the board are conservative as in there was a thread about that. I don't lie to myself. I don't make things up in my head. There were people talking about it as in they didn't want to hear it. All i did was sum up that there is a majority of people on this board that don't adhere to that lifestyle and to most, they don't want to talk about it. I personally think it is disgusting but who cares about what i think personally right? We can all think what we want and that is good. You do your thing, and I'll do mine.

[50%Natural]

wow, I just read tock and bdtr's arguments. That was great. You both stood your ground....I got to hand it to the both of you...great debate.

[Mach500]

Just to throw a comical wrench in this - aren't dolphins another species that has sex for pleasure? Not just to procreate. But their aren't any gay dolphins - you won't see two male dolphins going after each other for an anal probe

I'm glad you brought that up. You are totally wrong. There are homosexual animals, everywhere. Here is just one link. http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm
Check it out for yourself. It is a common knowledge that some Deer are homosexual, or bisexual. Apes, the same, and the list goes on. (meaning they have sex with the same sex.)

Not to mention, why are you guys so against gays??? It's less competition for you!

[cpt steele]

I'm glad you brought that up. You are totally wrong. There are homosexual animals, everywhere. Here is just one link. http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm
Check it out for yourself. It is a common knowledge that some Deer are homosexual, or bisexual. Apes, the same, and the list goes on. (meaning they have sex with the same sex.)

Not to mention, why are you guys so against gays??? It's less competition for you!

I like the fact that gay guys are not chasing women, I dont like bi-men or women make up your frigg'n mind. Thats when I feel its a choice and if you get ridiculed for your choice live with it.

[Mach500]

WOW, that was a ****ing in depth debate. I can't think of much more I would like to add. Holy crap Tock.

[Mach500]

I like the fact that gay guys are not chasing women, I dont like bi-men or women make up your frigg'n mind. Thats when I feel its a choice and if you get ridiculed for your choice live with it.

Hell no, that isn't even CLOSE to being Ok with me. There comes a point, where you just need to shut your mouth. 'Its a choice and if you get ridiculed for your choice live with it.' If a kid is getting made fun of by bullies at school, he should just live with it. If a black gets called Nigger, they should just live with it. If someone from a different country comes here and tells you 'America Sucks' you should just live with it. Hey, they aren't responsible for what they say. They just can't hold it back, and shut up.

[tryingtogetbig]

Can anyone at least acknowledge, that no matter your sexual preference, that all are treated equal here at AR? Even sharing differences in opinions, there is still a high degree of respect amongst AR members...NO?

So, even if I disagree with your sexual orientation, I don't disrespect you. If asked for my opinion on a matter, then yes I will share it. I can understand that this may not be the situation for some of you in real life, but please eveyrone realize the amount of respect you are able to maintain here at AR with the other members.

peace,

ttgb

[tryingtogetbig]

Hell no, that isn't even CLOSE to being Ok with me. There comes a point, where you just need to shut your mouth. 'Its a choice and if you get ridiculed for your choice live with it.' If a kid is getting made fun of by bullies at school, he should just live with it. If a black gets called Nigger, they should just live with it. If someone from a different country comes here and tells you 'America Sucks' you should just live with it. Hey, they aren't responsible for what they say. They can't miss a good time to 'shut up.'

obviously I posted my post before reading this post...

[Carlos_E]

obviously I posted my post before reading this post...

[Carlos_E]

Can anyone at least acknowledge, that no matter your sexual preference, that all are treated equal here at AR? Even sharing differences in opinions, there is still a high degree of respect amongst AR members...NO?

So, even if I disagree with your sexual orientation, I don't disrespect you. If asked for my opinion on a matter, then yes I will share it. I can understand that this may not be the situation for some of you in real life, but please eveyrone realize the amount of respect you are able to maintain here at AR with the other members.

peace,

ttgb

Lately there are more knuckle heads around but AR is definitely one of the best boards.