The Bible is a work of Fiction

**Phillyboy1** · 03-02-2004, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

and i got another question for all you belivers, what do you think of cloning? if life is soo great, and god is sooo almighty, then how the hell could mear mortals make life in a test tube inside a little lab? if life was soo nuts and complicated dont you think we could never ever clone or any of that stuff?

bump for my question. id really like to hear a full on christians thoughts on thi

**Superhuman** · 03-02-2004, 10:59 AM

God Bless All of You! May the Lord Jesus touch all of your lives! Peace be with you...

***50%Natural*** · 03-02-2004, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

bump for my question. id really like to hear a full on christians thoughts on thi

hmmm, I really haven't thought about it too much. I have seen genetically modified plants and immediately thought of that as a bad idea. They could ruin an ecosystem through cross polination with non modified plants and create a plant that could be unsuseptable to peticides or anything. But human cloning....You know, 100 years ago we would have never thought we could go to the moon or send satellites to foreign plants only visible in the eye of a telescope. So why should we not see cloning as possible? Is it wrong? I bet so. In god's eye, the second an egg and sperm meet, there is life. So should scientists go tampering with that, yes, there is going to be a problem. But that is a tough issue, i'll give you that. In his eyes, i bet it is no worse than the experiments the nazis played on the jews during the genocide. They took organs out to see how long people could live and other nasty things. Start messing around with developing fetuses and there could be some issues between you and the man. Revelations speaks attrocities, and who knows, cloning may be involved in all the symbolism.

**Phillyboy1** · 03-02-2004, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by 50%Natural

hmmm, I really haven't thought about it too much. I have seen genetically modified plants and immediately thought of that as a bad idea. They could ruin an ecosystem through cross polination with non modified plants and create a plant that could be unsuseptable to peticides or anything. But human cloning....You know, 100 years ago we would have never thought we could go to the moon or send satellites to foreign plants only visible in the eye of a telescope. So why should we not see cloning as possible? Is it wrong? I bet so. In god's eye, the second an egg and sperm meet, there is life. So should scientists go tampering with that, yes, there is going to be a problem. But that is a tough issue, i'll give you that. In his eyes, i bet it is no worse than the experiments the nazis played on the jews during the genocide. They took organs out to see how long people could live and other nasty things. Start messing around with developing fetuses and there could be some issues between you and the man. Revelations speaks attrocities, and who knows, cloning may be involved in all the symbolism.

well i mean do you think that clone has a soul and all the stuff? like when revelations comes what do you think god will do with the clones? it just throw a question out there. like if life is so precious that only god can make it, how are our scientists doing it? hmmm maybe science is the devil? cause so far it seems to be the only thing that can throw the bible a curve ball

**Football_Bill** · 03-02-2004, 01:32 PM

Thank you all for your insite. I was baptised Episcopalian but have never really studyed or followed religion. Now at 26, I feel lost in my life and was looking to turn towards religion. But, I agree that religion gives you something to follow, and I am not a good follower or listener. After much debate, and reading all your thoughs, I label myself agnostic, not believe nor denying the exsistance of god, or better put, a higher being. But, I do feel the bible has some good lessons learned that should be studyed or followed, and that is what I am starting to do. The bible is like a life manual, not all subjects are needed by all people. I just need a little direction in my life, cause right now, I think I am already in hell.

**Football_Bill** · 03-02-2004, 01:53 PM

So true, my lifestyle and actions over the past two years plus have made my life a "Living Hell", I am just trying to figure out how to make it "Heaven on Earth" again. (Again, like it ever was!)

Any suggestions, my own personal one is to quite smoking pot, but I keep doing it. The devil has possesed me, and he's a pothead

***50%Natural*** · 03-02-2004, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

well i mean do you think that clone has a soul and all the stuff? like when revelations comes what do you think god will do with the clones? it just throw a question out there. like if life is so precious that only god can make it, how are our scientists doing it? hmmm maybe science is the devil? cause so far it seems to be the only thing that can throw the bible a curve ball

yeah, I believe clones have a soul. But do we have any cloned people walking around? There will be a limitation to this. I see what you're saying. Yes, life is precisous. You never know. what will happen. It is a curve ball and it interests me that you did bring it up....you have me wondering what will become of it

**Phillyboy1** · 03-02-2004, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by 50%Natural

yeah, I believe clones have a soul. But do we have any cloned people walking around? There will be a limitation to this. I see what you're saying. Yes, life is precisous. You never know. what will happen. It is a curve ball and it interests me that you did bring it up....you have me wondering what will become of it

yeah i think it will have alot of problems with the real belivers. im not one of them im more on the same side as tock on the whole religion topic. i think alot of people will just talk around it rather then try to figure out where their beliefs fall on this topic. it almost shows that alot of what the bible says is not true.

guess you can say im being a antagonist lol

***50%Natural*** · 03-02-2004, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

yeah i think it will have alot of problems with the real belivers. im not one of them im more on the same side as tock on the whole religion topic. i think alot of people will just talk around it rather then try to figure out where their beliefs fall on this topic. it almost shows that alot of what the bible says is not true.

guess you can say im being a antagonist lol

well, I wouldn't say that it shows the bible is untrue. The bible just represents history. Where the whole cloning stuff falls in is still yet to be decided. I am pretty sure that bishops and the top dawgs of religion are totally opposed. But I'm kinda middle of the road on the issue. It seems wrong, but what if it helps us right?

**Phillyboy1** · 03-02-2004, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by 50%Natural

well, I wouldn't say that it shows the bible is untrue. The bible just represents history. Where the whole cloning stuff falls in is still yet to be decided. I am pretty sure that bishops and the top dawgs of religion are totally opposed. But I'm kinda middle of the road on the issue. It seems wrong, but what if it helps us right?

well i dont mean it proves the bible untrue in the history aspect, but i mean the seriousness of God. the way the bible treats life would sort of be thrown out the window now that we can clone or create life ourselves. i mean they already cloned sheep, the only reason they havent cloned people yet is because of the religious aspect it would test. i would think the most clergy would be opposed cause it puts their job in jeapordy (sp?) what would people be basing their faith in if it is proved wrong? if god is the creator of all things, then why can our little scientists create what ever they want? see where im going with this?

***Cycleon*** · 03-02-2004, 05:29 PM

btw - I notice that the books of Josephus, written at the same time and briefly mentioning Jesus, are taken at face value and no one seems to suggest that it is a fiction - in spite of the fact that it corroberates MANY of the contextual historical facts that are in the 4 gospels

**bornbad71** · 03-02-2004, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

so you belive in god because you are scared that if you dont youll end up like the book says in revolations. you dont think god will see right threw your B.S. scheme and tell you to go pound sand? why would he want you a person who just belived because you were scared rather then a person who just questions but still goes threw life as a good person? one other question for ya, what do you think will happen to the muslims, hindus, buddists, when the seals are opened by the man on the white horse? do you think god will just say sorry should have listened to the jews and christians?

and i got another question for all you belivers, what do you think of cloning? if life is soo great, and god is sooo almighty, then how the hell could mear mortals make life in a test tube inside a little lab? if life was soo nuts and complicated dont you think we could never ever clone or any of that stuff?

At what point did I say scared, but your right....I'm scared I will fall short of the glory of GOD and be thrown in hell forever....u know the weird thing about all this is even the demons from hell fear GOD, but we as humans have the GOD given right to choose how we live and believe, so therefore so many people don't fear GOD at all....this is my opinion and backed by scripture in the bible in which some see as fiction, so if it is fiction then why are so many trying to disprove it and coming up short...anyone can say what they want, it is an open board, I have not once tried to push my belief on anyone, I did ask a question which was "what if u are wrong?"....as for what if I am wrong then what has it hurt in me believing in GOD and the bible in which I personally think has stood the test of time for GOD's people to read and learn from.

**Phillyboy1** · 03-02-2004, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by bornbad71

At what point did I say scared, but your right....I'm scared I will fall short of the glory of GOD and be thrown in hell forever....u know the weird thing about all this is even the demons from hell fear GOD, but we as humans have the GOD given right to choose how we live and believe, so therefore so many people don't fear GOD at all....this is my opinion and backed by scripture in the bible in which some see as fiction, so if it is fiction then why are so many trying to disprove it and coming up short...anyone can say what they want, it is an open board, I have not once tried to push my belief on anyone, I did ask a question which was "what if u are wrong?"....as for what if I am wrong then what has it hurt in me believing in GOD and the bible in which I personally think has stood the test of time for GOD's people to read and learn from.

well nothings wrong if your wrong except that you led your life by someone elses rules and not your own. if it keeps you from doing things then there is a problem. but if it doesnt and your completly happy then good for you. never said that there is a problem with that. some people need the crutch of religion to stay on the straight and narrow, some dont. some definatly need it and still dont use it (ex: murderers, rapists, people like that)

so if you can go threw life living by someone else's rule and be completly fine with that then great, but for me its not gonna work. everything i have done in life is cause of me. the good and the bad, if i messed up it was my mistake, not gods. if i did something right then it was also because of me, not god.

again i didnt say i belive there isnt a god. i definatly belive there is, youd have to be a fool to just belive that we are hear alone in this universe. but again it goes back to one point. you arent gonna find out untill you die or before your born. and last time i checked i havent met any dead or unborn people to tell me whats up

Edit: sorry i suck at spelling and type faster then i should so i dont feel like fixing my spelling mistakes

**bornbad71** · 03-02-2004, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

well nothings wrong if your wrong except that you led your life by someone elses rules and not your own. if it keeps you from doing things then there is a problem. but if it doesnt and your completly happy then good for you. never said that there is a problem with that. some people need the crutch of religion to stay on the straight and narrow, some dont. some definatly need it and still dont use it (ex: murderers, rapists, people like that)

so if you can go threw life living by someone else's rule and be completly fine with that then great, but for me its not gonna work. everything i have done in life is cause of me. the good and the bad, if i messed up it was my mistake, not gods. if i did something right then it was also because of me, not god.

again i didnt say i belive there isnt a god. i definatly belive there is, youd have to be a fool to just belive that we are hear alone in this universe. but again it goes back to one point. you arent gonna find out untill you die or before your born. and last time i checked i havent met any dead or unborn people to tell me whats up

Edit: sorry i suck at spelling and type faster then i should so i dont feel like fixing my spelling mistakes

"except that you led your life by someone elses rules and not your own. if it keeps you from doing things then there is a problem."........I find this statement true for anyone that lives in a governed nation.....if u are under a government then u led your life by someone elses rules....so after reading that quote I will ask u this, do u enjoy paying taxes everytime you turn your head? Do u abid by the laws set forth by your government? Then u my friend are like me and living by someone elses rules.
All my staements are from my belief and I will never force that on anyone....as far as religion goes I think there is only one true religion, that is GOD's religion, I belive that satan has brought forth different denominations trying to split GOD's people, which has worked very well so far.
So as it stands for me I believe in the bible and believe it to be true, I may not always live my life like GOD has layed out in the bible, but that is why he provided a chance for forgiveness thru the blood shed by Christ on the cross.

**Phillyboy1** · 03-02-2004, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by bornbad71

"except that you led your life by someone elses rules and not your own. if it keeps you from doing things then there is a problem."........I find this statement true for anyone that lives in a governed nation.....if u are under a government then u led your life by someone elses rules....so after reading that quote I will ask u this, do u enjoy paying taxes everytime you turn your head? .

actually i dont pay taxes everytime i turn my head, i dont get a pay check. i get my money and then after i get it i decide how much i want to pay the government. its called owning your own business and haveing very good tax advisors. but do i mind paying them taxes? hell no, i like driving on paved roads, i like having police and i like there to be rules so people dont just go out and do what ever they want. sorry but i like living without the threat of being robbed or slaughtered like other countries

Originally Posted by bornbad71

"Do u abid by the laws set forth by your government? Then u my friend are like me and living by someone elses rules..

see post above for the answer

Originally Posted by bornbad71

"All my staements are from my belief and I will never force that on anyone....as far as religion goes I think there is only one true religion, that is GOD's religion, I belive that satan has brought forth different denominations trying to split GOD's people, which has worked very well so far.
So as it stands for me I believe in the bible and believe it to be true, I may not always live my life like GOD has layed out in the bible, but that is why he provided a chance for forgiveness thru the blood shed by Christ on the cross.

that fine, but the only problem is what if you were born in a muslim family? then youd be saying the same thing but from the view of a muslim, and all you christians would be going to hell. so now would you be seen bad in gods eyes? its not your fault your parents choose the wrong religion according to the bible?

**bornbad71** · 03-02-2004, 06:41 PM

The tax thing was an example, but u do pay taxes all the time....for groceries, gas, vehicals, and yes income taxes, but let's not get into all that.

As far as where I was born and to what religion I believe...then u may be right, if I would have been born into another belief then things might be different for me, but I wasn't and there not....I don't go around calling out others beliefs or religion and I get alittle pissed when people call the book I believe in fiction, so Please forgive me for not caving in and standing firm in my beliefs, but it will never change and I will continue to believe how I do regardless of what anyone says or can even prove....I feel everyone believes in something, it may be themselves, a statue, the wind, or whatever......but I believe in GOD and I believe in the bible, so I have said about all I care to about this, even though I do thank u for your views and opinions, even though they are somewhat different from mine.

**Phillyboy1** · 03-02-2004, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by bornbad71

The tax thing was an example, but u do pay taxes all the time....for groceries, gas, vehicals, and yes income taxes, but let's not get into all that.

As far as where I was born and to what religion I believe...then u may be right, if I would have been born into another belief then things might be different for me, but I wasn't and there not....I don't go around calling out others beliefs or religion and I get alittle pissed when people call the book I believe in fiction, so Please forgive me for not caving in and standing firm in my beliefs, but it will never change and I will continue to believe how I do regardless of what anyone says or can even prove....I feel everyone believes in something, it may be themselves, a statue, the wind, or whatever......but I believe in GOD and I believe in the bible, so I have said about all I care to about this, even though I do thank u for your views and opinions, even though they are somewhat different from mine.

im not knockin ya at all for having your beliefs, i was in the same place you are now, actually i was probably a little deeper. many of my friends went to bible colleges, a couple of them are pastors, even i almost became one of the mentors in a youth groups. i went to church every sunday, youth group every wed, and thursday night. was brought up in sunday school as a kid, and have a very religious mothers side of my family. then one day i stopped just listening to what i was told and started looking for reason on my own, it made alot more sense to me after i stepped back and analized everything with a open veiw rather then a christian view. it made me realize that i dont need other people telling me what to do.

sorry for the slow reply, its cooking time lol, and im cooking a big ass steak

**PTbyJason** · 03-02-2004, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

bump for my question. id really like to hear a full on christians thoughts on thi

I don't have time to be online tonight, but I will reply to everything more tomorrow. I have a lot I want to say.

About cloning, I don't know how the soul thing works out. I will never even try to guess that one. But one huge problem with your statement. Scientist aren't necessarily creating life. They are and they are not. When a scientist can create life from nothing, then they can say they created life. They took DNA, which they cannot produce on their own, and made life from that. HUGE DIFFERENCE

**PTbyJason** · 03-02-2004, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Football_Bill

So true, my lifestyle and actions over the past two years plus have made my life a "Living Hell", I am just trying to figure out how to make it "Heaven on Earth" again. (Again, like it ever was!)

Any suggestions, my own personal one is to quite smoking pot, but I keep doing it. The devil has possesed me, and he's a pothead

Bro, I'll offer you a challenge. It's been proven time and time again, and it's why those who believe in something we can't see, fight so hard for our beliefs. We are defending the unseen, there has to be a reason, right?

Do me a favor, spend a couple of minutes a day, when you get in your car, when you go to take a shower, etc.... Just say "God, I don't know if you are out there, but I need help getting my life straight. If you are out there, give me some direction." No one has to hear it except you and Him. Your life will get straightened out. You can thank God for that when it starts happening. It will be subtle and will look like it is just coincidences, but there is no doubt that God will be behind it. He doesn't swoop down and do things in an obvious way, but things will start coming together for you and your mind will start to clear. I know a couple of guys on this board that will testify to this that also don't quite know what the truth is. Give it a try, what do you have to lose?

**PTbyJason** · 03-02-2004, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by monstercojones

Jason, check out the dead sea scrolls... they offer a credible, conflicting account of the gospels.

I have some of your answers already, but you are not going to like them if you think it disproves the Bible. I want to gather more evidence and double check my sources, but so far it only further proves the Bible and disproves some of the stories that you heard about that are not in the Bible.

I'm out for the night guys, I will get back to this tomorrow.

**bornbad71** · 03-02-2004, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

im not knockin ya at all for having your beliefs, i was in the same place you are now, actually i was probably a little deeper. many of my friends went to bible colleges, a couple of them are pastors, even i almost became one of the mentors in a youth groups. i went to church every sunday, youth group every wed, and thursday night. was brought up in sunday school as a kid, and have a very religious mothers side of my family. then one day i stopped just listening to what i was told and started looking for reason on my own, it made alot more sense to me after i stepped back and analized everything with a open veiw rather then a christian view. it made me realize that i dont need other people telling me what to do.

sorry for the slow reply, its cooking time lol, and im cooking a big ass steak

I don't feel as if u have knocked me for my beliefs and I don't I feel u have tried to change my mind about what I believe....I think u have found what works for u and I feel that is good for u, but I also think if u have walked in GOD's will before u will return one day(not trying to get u to change how u feel by any means)...I have enjoyed our repling back and forth and do respect others for what they believe, it doesn't mean we have to agree....we can always have educated posts and still not agree with one another.....this should never get to the point of I'm right and your wrong kinda thing.

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by bermich

I skimmed through several of the posts and 50 CENT typed a sentence that can SUM UP THIS ENTIRE THREAD:

"It is based on faith." Me personaly: I dont believe in faith. I believe in making good decisions in life and hopefully you get back what you put into it.
.

That about sums it all up.
There's not much substatiation for it, but you can beleive it anyway. Live according to it, if you like. But don't use it as a reason to make other people live the way you want them to.
--Tock

**PurePower** · 03-02-2004, 08:48 PM

Right on ptbyjason

All you have to do is ask. He will listen i promise bro.

***50%Natural*** · 03-02-2004, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

well i dont mean it proves the bible untrue in the history aspect, but i mean the seriousness of God. the way the bible treats life would sort of be thrown out the window now that we can clone or create life ourselves. i mean they already cloned sheep, the only reason they havent cloned people yet is because of the religious aspect it would test. i would think the most clergy would be opposed cause it puts their job in jeapordy (sp?) what would people be basing their faith in if it is proved wrong? if god is the creator of all things, then why can our little scientists create what ever they want? see where im going with this?

Yeah, I see where you're going. Well, like jason said, they can create life from pre existing dna. I don't think a scientist can create a sperm, create an egg and concieve a life. At that point, if a scientist could reproduce conception created from man made cromosomes, then we'd have a problem. But, with the exception of making the same person, I believe this opens up a lot of useful options that for some reason god foresaw us to need. As the world becomes more populated, would it not make sense if we could clone animals instead of waiting for them to go into heat and mate?

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 08:56 PM

3) There's quite a few reasons why the Biblical account of Noah's Ark is impossible.
a) Tally up the total number of square feet the boat could have possibly had . . . it works out to about two and a half acres.
b) Tally up the total number of animals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and insects carried on the boat -- between 2 or 7 of each species. There are some 20,000 known species of mammals alone; lots more of everything else, especially insects (900,000 currently identified species).
c) Tally up the amount of food and fresh water it would take to feed all those animals for the time they were in the Ark -- keep in mind they were shut up inside the Ark for a total of 14 months.

Originally Posted by 50%Natural

Tock, yes you broke it down like you always do.

3) Also, it doesn't seem all that absurd.
You do raise valid questions about the kangaroos.
Exactly why Darwanism is so believable in that animals some how alter dna over time. But there are many unexplainable events that have occured. Where do viruses come from?

3) Darwinism? Who said anything about Darwinism? Darwin has nothing whatsoever to do with the absurd story of Noah's Ark. Geez, Krispy Kreme Donuts has as much to do with the issue as Darwinism . . .

The Biblical story of Noah's Ark is absurd. I have no idea why the story was created, but I'm sure whoever was responsible sure didn't mean for it to be taken as literally true. There's no way it possibly could be literally true. But to "make beleive" that you do is to do your intellect a great injustice . . .
--Tock

(getting behind on this, because of these slow-running whatman filters . . . yes, I'm cooking lunch today)

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by mart651

Most gays and liberals can not believe in Christ or God.
Their beliefs are against the preaching of the bible.

.

I have news for you, mon petite . . . most gays I've seen DO beleive in Christ and God. There are 11 gay churches here in Dallas, each one is jam pack full every Sunday. There are a couple gay Jewish groups, too, plus a contingent of gay Catholics; but it seems that a sizable percentage of the Catholic clergy are either gay or pederasts (like children).

And given that the "Liberal Democrats" shot down my proposal to Amend the Texas State Constutitution so that non-beleivers could be elected to public office, I'd say your comment is off the mark with liberals, too . . .
--Tock

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by Football_Bill

Thank you all for your insite. I was baptised Episcopalian but have never really studyed or followed religion. Now at 26, I feel lost in my life and was looking to turn towards religion. But, I agree that religion gives you something to follow, and I am not a good follower or listener. After much debate, and reading all your thoughs, I label myself agnostic, not believe nor denying the exsistance of god, or better put, a higher being. But, I do feel the bible has some good lessons learned that should be studyed or followed, and that is what I am starting to do. The bible is like a life manual, not all subjects are needed by all people. I just need a little direction in my life, cause right now, I think I am already in hell.

You sound like you'd be at home at a Unitarian church. If there are any in your neck of the woods, I'd try it out.
http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html
--Tock

**Phillyboy1** · 03-02-2004, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by bornbad71

I don't feel as if u have knocked me for my beliefs and I don't I feel u have tried to change my mind about what I believe....I think u have found what works for u and I feel that is good for u, but I also think if u have walked in GOD's will before u will return one day(not trying to get u to change how u feel by any means)...I have enjoyed our repling back and forth and do respect others for what they believe, it doesn't mean we have to agree....we can always have educated posts and still not agree with one another.....this should never get to the point of I'm right and your wrong kinda thing.

completly agree, and i didnt want to sound like i was trying to change your beliefs

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper
well i mean do you think that clone has a soul and all the stuff? like when revelations comes what do you think god will do with the clones? it just throw a question out there. like if life is so precious that only god can make it, how are our scientists doing it? hmmm maybe science is the devil? cause so far it seems to be the only thing that can throw the bible a curve ball

Originally Posted by 50%Natural

yeah, I believe clones have a soul. But do we have any cloned people walking around? There will be a limitation to this. I see what you're saying. Yes, life is precisous. You never know. what will happen. It is a curve ball and it interests me that you did bring it up....you have me wondering what will become of it

And there's another myth -- the existance of a "soul."
Although everyone is supposed to have one, no one has ever seen one. There is no way to examine one. No way to detect it through any of the 5 senses (taste, touch, smell, sound, or sight).

So I ask you this -- How do you know that clones have a soul? How do you know that YOU have a soul?

--Tock

**Phillyboy1** · 03-02-2004, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tock

Originally Posted by jcstomper
well i mean do you think that clone has a soul and all the stuff? like when revelations comes what do you think god will do with the clones? it just throw a question out there. like if life is so precious that only god can make it, how are our scientists doing it? hmmm maybe science is the devil? cause so far it seems to be the only thing that can throw the bible a curve ball

And there's another myth -- the existance of a "soul."
Although everyone is supposed to have one, no one has ever seen one. There is no way to examine one. No way to detect it through any of the 5 senses (taste, touch, smell, sound, or sight).

So I ask you this -- How do you know that clones have a soul? How do you know that YOU have a soul?

--Tock

was that for me or for him?

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

btw - I notice that the books of Josephus, written at the same time and briefly mentioning Jesus, are taken at face value and no one seems to suggest that it is a fiction - in spite of the fact that it corroberates MANY of the contextual historical facts that are in the 4 gospels

I understand there are several versions of Josephus' work. Some versions, the ones in posession of christian churches, do indeed mention Jesus, while other copies do not.
Ya, it seems the works of Josephus had been in Christian hands long enough for some monks to do some creative re-writing of those ancient texts so they would 'prove' the Bible right.

--Tock

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by bornbad71

1) opinion and backed by scripture in the bible in which some see as fiction, so if it is fiction then why are so many trying to disprove it and coming up short

2) I did ask a question which was "what if u are wrong?
.

1) ain't nobody come up short.

2) I covered that question. Look for my post dealing with "Pascal's Wager." It's the most common question posed to unbeleivers. You can probably do a web search on the term, find lots of info on it, too.

--Tock

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by bornbad71

I don't go around calling out others beliefs or religion and I get alittle pissed when people call the book I believe in fiction,
.

Then you will understand how non-beleivers feel when a Christian whomps 'em over the head with a Bible. You see it every time a preacher or a layperson says, "Homosexuality is against the Bible, so gays can't do . . . . "

As far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business what other people beleive or don't beleive. It is, however, very much my business to strenuously object to Christians restricting my freedom and personal rights because my lifestyle offends their religious beleifs. And that's what I do . . . I've been doing it so much lately that it seems to have become a hobby . . . lol . . .

--Tock

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by jcstomper

was that for me or for him?

For him . . . or for that matter, anyone who wants to try to explain why they "know" that souls exist.

--Tock

We're doing real good on this thread . . . 4 pages so far, and not a single flame! I think we all deserve a free bottle of prop for this . . .
--Tock

***50%Natural*** · 03-02-2004, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Tock

Originally Posted by jcstomper
And there's another myth -- the existance of a "soul."
Although everyone is supposed to have one, no one has ever seen one. There is no way to examine one. No way to detect it through any of the 5 senses (taste, touch, smell, sound, or sight).

So I ask you this -- How do you know that clones have a soul? How do you know that YOU have a soul?

--Tock

Well, to tell you the truth, I think our concous(spelling? tough word) is our soul. That is just what I believe. You can disect it all you want but that is me and a lot of others. You can't tell me what I believe is wrong because you have made it a point to tell others that being homosexual is not wrong.

**tryingtogetbig** · 03-02-2004, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Tock

We're doing real good on this thread . . . 4 pages so far, and not a single flame! I think we all deserve a free bottle of prop for this . . .
--Tock

Tock...you are a sorry SOB because you don't agree with everything I say...

It's gonna happen sooner or later...get it over with for "God's" sake. Notice the "god" reference...kind of appropriate don't you think!!

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by PurePower

If you all would open your eyes you would see that Jesus is trying to talk to you right here, right now.

My eyes are open, but I don't see Jesus around anywhere.

Another question . . . If Jesus was Jewish, how come he had a Mexican name?
--Tock

***Cycleon*** · 03-02-2004, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Tock

I understand there are several versions of Josephus' work. Some versions, the ones in posession of christian churches, do indeed mention Jesus, while other copies do not.
Ya, it seems the works of Josephus had been in Christian hands long enough for some monks to do some creative re-writing of those ancient texts so they would 'prove' the Bible right.

--Tock

again, trying to make textual critisisms on rumors of falsified texts without any proof of it - why not go buy it on Amazon - no doubt the "christians" have completely fabricated that one too

I respect your intelligence Tock but you are going to need more than fairy tails for your arguments - next you are going to be telling me of the gospel of Barnabas

I realize you wont change your mind, but at least make yourself look good by doing the research

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by spywizard

1) Actually, the bible has been proven to be the most acurate book, with the least deviation throughout history... with less than .01 deviation in copying throughtout... when compared to the scrolls.........

1) I don't know that it has. But even if the copyists were 100% accurate, there is still no way Noah could have fit over 40,000 animals on that itty bitty Ark with food and water for 14 months. There is no way that over half the population of Egypt could have left the country with the Army in ruins, and no one recorded the event, other than the Jews in the Old Testament. There is no way that anyone ever rose from the dead and floated up into the stratosphere, into outer space, past Saturn and Pluto, past all the other stars and galaxies out there without a space suit and plenty of air.

Ya, it may have been copied ok, but the original was full of fiction.

--Tock

**Tock** · 03-02-2004, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by PurePower

Yes...I pray every night to those who are "lost"

I think you mean "for those who are lost" . . .

Yes . . . and I have great hopes for those who have fallen into the intellect-crushing tentacles of theism . . . Perhaps exposing 'em to a bit of heresy every now and then might jog their minds back to reality . . .
--Tock