Abortion: should the gov't ban it?

**spywizard** · 03-07-2004, 08:58 PM

hey

Originally Posted by Taejoon

Then she needs to get over it. Or she should have come to grips with totallity of the decision she made when she chose to have her unborn child aborted in the first place. Either way, her mental state is her own fault, not the fault of the procedure, or the people performing it. As for who has the right to kill someone and/or stop a life, see my above post in which I responded to Cycleon.

Peace

-Taejoon

***Cycleon*** · 03-07-2004, 09:11 PM

spywizard --- Shhhhhhhhhh! Taejoon is doing a fantastic job of making my overall argument - please let him continue apace!

**spywizard** · 03-07-2004, 09:12 PM

Alright..............

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

spywizard --- Shhhhhhhhhh! Taejoon is doing a fantastic job of making my overall argument - please let him continue apace!

**Animal Cracker** · 03-07-2004, 10:32 PM

Abortion..should be handled by the gov't...and mandatory in many cases! What about retro-abortion?

***Cycleon*** · 03-07-2004, 10:44 PM

well, that is exatly what we are discussing! if abortion is good, why should we make any distinction between a baby that is 6 months old in the womb and one that is 1 year outside of the womb?

**Taejoon** · 03-07-2004, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

well, that is exatly what we are discussing! if abortion is good, why should we make any distinction between a baby that is 6 months old in the womb and one that is 1 year outside of the womb?

There is no difference between a child that's 6 months in the womb and a 1 year old outside the womb. Anyone that says so is only kidding themselves in an effort to make themselves feel better about what it is they are about to do. Abortion is murder (once the fetus has developed into something tangible), and if people cannot deal with this reality, then they shouldn't have one. If they don't want to have a guilty conscience later on down the road, then they should take the "morning after pill". If they're still pregnant, then have the "thing" aborted within the first few weeks. During this time, there is a chance that it might not be murder, but that depends on where you think life begins, and that is a whole different issue. My only reason for posting on this thread in the first place was to say that abortion should be kept legal, and to also say that I comfortable with the reality of what abortion really is.

Peace

-Taejoon

**markas214** · 03-08-2004, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by Taejoon

There is no difference between a child that's 6 months in the womb and a 1 year old outside the womb. Anyone that says so is only kidding themselves in an effort to make themselves feel better about what it is they are about to do.-Taejoon

This statement is absolutely ludicrous. The abortion debate revolves around when a human life (there's no doubt a fetus is alive and human) becomes a person. Perhaps the myself and other pro-choice people are deluding ourselves but ,beyond the abortion debate it is quite obvious a born baby is a person. You must not have any kids if you don't know that. A child starts developing emotionally from the start and any parent can tell you that their children's personalities begin to emerge very early in life. What your argument lacks is a recognition of what sets humans apart from other living beings. Humanity. Humanity is the ability to empathize and relate to other people. For instance serial killers don't have it. Hitler didn't have it and the Nazis at the death camps lost it. They are able to kill without remorse because of an emotional defect. Your idea of killing babies is not only morally wrong but borders on the thinking of a sociopathic/psychopathic mind. Who would you have kill the babies and "retards"? I would say the only people that would do the killing would be people who are psychotic and thereby in the argument you present need to be euthanized themselves because they are the most defective among us. Eventually there would be no one left to do the killing because we wiped the psychotic killers off the face of the earth.

**Taejoon** · 03-08-2004, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by markas214

This statement is absolutely ludicrous. The abortion debate revolves around when a human life (there's no doubt a fetus is alive and human) becomes a person. Perhaps the myself and other pro-choice people are deluding ourselves but ,beyond the abortion debate it is quite obvious a born baby is a person. You must not have any kids if you don't know that. A child starts developing emotionally from the start and any parent can tell you that their children's personalities begin to emerge very early in life. What your argument lacks is a recognition of what sets humans apart from other living beings. Humanity. Humanity is the ability to empathize and relate to other people. For instance serial killers don't have it. Hitler didn't have it and the Nazis at the death camps lost it. They are able to kill without remorse because of an emotional defect. Your idea of killing babies is not only morally wrong but borders on the thinking of a sociopathic/psychopathic mind. Who would you have kill the babies and "retards"? I would say the only people that would do the killing would be people who are psychotic and thereby in the argument you present need to be euthanized themselves because they are the most defective among us. Eventually there would be no one left to do the killing because we wiped the psychotic killers off the face of the earth.

You're telling me that other mammals do not have the ability to "empathize" and "relate" to one another? Well, all I can say on that is that you're dead wrong, and you should have paid more attention in your anthropology classes when they were talking about evolution and the social behavior of primates. As for babies magically turning into "persons" once they are spit out of the womb.... That's just a crock of crap, there is no basis for your conclusion! Not only that, but it's a known scientific fact that developing fetuses begin to learn and recognize sounds long before their lungs ever taste the air of the world. Hence, any kind of learning that a child undergoes, whether they are inside of, or outside of the womb, constitutes the development of what you so affectionately dubbed a "personality", which would in turn mean that the thing with the “personality” would have to be a “person”. So, you pretty much contradicted yourself and just agreed with me that aborting an unborn child is the same thing as aborting a “person”, which would make it murder. Good line of reasoning, way to go on that one…. With this in mind it seems that you're the type of person that would fall into the category of "delusional", that is, those people that try to convince themselves that abortion is not murder in order that they may still sleep at night (Denial makes all your problems dissapear, right?). Me, I simply acknowledge abortion for what it is, and realize that it has its place in modern society, and I personally suggest you do the same. Or, on the other hand, you could head down to your nearest church, pick up a Bible and jump on the Pro-Life bandwagon.... It's up to you....

Peace

-Taejoon

**mass junkie** · 03-08-2004, 09:43 AM

I like Cycleons opinion on this issue

**Mart651** · 03-08-2004, 09:48 AM

I for one am not proud of a lot of things I have been involved in, in my past.
I have had expierence with abortion and can say that it is my greatest regret in life.
I have one child and one on the way. I would have another one right now but the girl that I was with and myself decided to kill it.

Lord knows I wish I could go back and change this one thing.

**spywizard** · 03-08-2004, 09:54 AM

Thanks mart.......... You put a human face on the issue...... the pain and sense of loss that one feels from our past decissions......... just because an act is legal... doesn't mean there aren't consequences to our actions... all our actions.

Originally Posted by mart651

I for one am not proud of a lot of things I have been involved in, in my past.
I have had expierence with abortion and can say that it is my greatest regret in life.
I have one child and one on the way. I would have another one right now but the girl that I was with and myself decided to kill it.

Lord knows I wish I could go back and change this one thing.

**mass junkie** · 03-08-2004, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by spywizard

Thanks mart.......... You put a human face on the issue...... the pain and sense of loss that one feels from our past decissions......... just because an act is legal... doesn't mean there aren't consequences to our actions... all our actions.

Agreed

**allsaucedup** · 03-08-2004, 10:02 AM

i do not agree with abortion as a form of birth control, but also do not agree with people who are not fit to be parents bringing children into this world. abortion should be a choice that is made buy the two people who are responsible for making the baby. even if the government were to outlaw abortions it would not stop them. people would use illegal ways to have there problem fixed, and this would create more health problems. abortion is a topic that will debated till the end off time, but when it comes down to it there has to be an option for each different case. just my .02

***Cycleon*** · 03-08-2004, 10:38 AM

tock - now see how different it reads when you change the question? easy to skew polls by how you ask the question

**Superhuman** · 03-08-2004, 10:45 AM

killing a child is killing a child... When a murderer kills a woman that's pregnant, they can get charged for double homicide or murder... why is it that a woman can get away with it??? She says it's her body, well NOT ANYMORE. When she's pregnant, it's the baby's body. She can do whatever she wants to HER body, but not the the BABY inside. This is ludacris that there is even a question of whether or not abortion is okay. It's WRONG, plain and simple. Give me one good reason to have an abortion and I'll give you 10 reasons not to. NOT TO MENTION THE FACT THAT IT'S WRONG IN THE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY.

**Superhuman** · 03-08-2004, 10:47 AM

...if the mother doesn't want a baby then you have many options:
1. ADOPTION
2. WEAR A CONDOM
3. BIRTH CONTROL
4. EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION (morning after pill)
5. DON'T HAVE SEX

....fu cking stupid-ass people

alevok · 03-08-2004, 10:47 AM

well, imagine yourself as a woman that get raped and your government forces you to deliver your baby that his father is your rapist. Or you are a teenager, made a stupid mistake and get pregnant, if it is up to government there goes your future, so it should be up to women not the government.
On the other hand women should not think abortion as a choice of protection, I know girls that have unprotected sex saying if I get pregnant I get abortion, thats wrong. Both partners should be protected to avoid unwanted pregnancy

***Cycleon*** · 03-08-2004, 11:09 AM

Superhuman - once again, keep the fould comments to yourself and stick with your arguments which are fine

Avelok - again the rape victim - that is a very tiny percentage of abortions practiced in this country and I guarantee even less of a percentage in yours - so give me a real reason we should murder that baby

besides - just because the father was a rapist, why should we execute the baby who has done nothing wrong? Why not execute the father?

But again, all just lies made up to excuse a desired lifestyle - a woman who has been raped can go to the hospital and get a morning after or at very least can deal with it extreemely early on - but again, this whole argument is a straw man.

Taejoon stated it so eloquently for me I am hard pressed to improve apon it:

With this in mind it seems that you're the type of person that would fall into the category of "delusional", that is, those people that try to convince themselves that abortion is not murder in order that they may still sleep at night (Denial makes all your problems dissapear, right?). Me, I simply acknowledge abortion for what it is, and realize that it has its place in modern society, and I personally suggest you do the same. Or, on the other hand, you could head down to your nearest church, pick up a Bible and jump on the Pro-Life bandwagon.... It's up to you....

***Cycleon*** · 03-08-2004, 11:14 AM

Mart - I can only imagine what that must feel like and all I can say is that though it was wrong, God does forgive if you ask Him, he paid the price for it already - and if He can do so, you can forgive yourself and your wife (and she you) as well and let Him take care of your little one that you miss.

**takara** · 03-08-2004, 11:18 AM

What if a woman gets pregnant inside a loving and caring relationship with her husband of 8 or so years. They have been planning on having children for a couple of years now so they decide to "keep it," later to find a couple of months down the road that having this baby would not only kill her but the baby as well. Would it then be wrong to have an abortion? Would it be murder to let her have it and have both of them die? I am just throwing out a scenario, I know it is rare but there are pregnancies where the baby will die at birth. So would it be better to have an abortion early on before the mother can get too attatched?

~Takara

**Mart651** · 03-08-2004, 11:25 AM

Thanks bro.

It was not my current wife. It was in my past before I even knew her.
I have prayed more than one prayer to be forgiven for this. God has forgiven me. I just can not seem to forgive myself.

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

Mart - I can only imagine what that must feel like and all I can say is that though it was wrong, God does forgive if you ask Him, he paid the price for it already - and if He can do so, you can forgive yourself and your wife (and she you) as well and let Him take care of your little one that you miss.

***Cycleon*** · 03-08-2004, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by takara

What if a woman gets pregnant inside a loving and caring relationship with her husband of 8 or so years. They have been planning on having children for a couple of years now so they decide to "keep it," later to find a couple of months down the road that having this baby would not only kill her but the baby as well. Would it then be wrong to have an abortion? Would it be murder to let her have it and have both of them die? I am just throwing out a scenario, I know it is rare but there are pregnancies where the baby will die at birth. So would it be better to have an abortion early on before the mother can get too attatched?

~Takara

in any situation where the life of the mother (or the baby) is truly threatened by carrying to term, that would be a clear case where such a choice may have to be made to kill the baby - either to save the mother or in cases where the child is clearly to be born with a rapidly fatal disease - then I can certainly see a need for exception in these rare but real cases.

Mart - if God can forgive you, who are you to say you are better than He? and that your justice is more righteous

**takara** · 03-08-2004, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

in any situation where the life of the mother (or the baby) is truly threatened by carrying to term, that would be a clear case where such a choice may have to be made to kill the baby - either to save the mother or in cases where the child is clearly to be born with a rapidly fatal disease - then I can certainly see a need for exception in these rare but real cases.

Okay... well I am just trying to get a sense of where you draw the line on what is murder and what is not. No matter what... abortion is murder. I am willing to accept that and accept that it happens often. As much as I hate the fact of knowing you are killing a baby when having an abortion, I can deal w/ it. I am also pretty sure that if I were to get pregnant right now I would heavely consider having an abortion. More likely than not I would. I would really have to think about it.

~Takara

**Mart651** · 03-08-2004, 01:12 PM

Hopefully you are smart enough to know what gets you pregnant and avoid it. Abortion should not be considered birth control. Trust me. That is something that never goes away. I have talked to many people and everyone of them have grown to regret the choice of having an abortion.(everyone of them)

Originally Posted by takara

Okay... well I am just trying to get a sense of where you draw the line on what is murder and what is not. No matter what... abortion is murder. I am willing to accept that and accept that it happens often. As much as I hate the fact of knowing you are killing a baby when having an abortion, I can deal w/ it. I am also pretty sure that if I were to get pregnant right now I would heavely consider having an abortion. More likely than not I would. I would really have to think about it.

~Takara

**takara** · 03-08-2004, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by mart651

Hopefully you are smart enough to know what gets you pregnant and avoid it. Abortion should not be considered birth control. Trust me. That is something that never goes away. I have talked to many people and everyone of them have grown to regret the choice of having an abortion.(everyone of them)

I am smart enough to know what gets me pregnant and how to avoid it... and I don't consider it "birth control" by any means. I am just saying that if by some off the wall chance that I were to get pregnant, I wouldn't rule abortion out as one of my options. Don't get me wrong I probably would regret having an abortion emensly, but I would have to deal w/ the consequences of my actions. Both w/ getting pregnant and what I decided to do after I finding out.

~Takara

**Mart651** · 03-08-2004, 01:26 PM

At your age I can completely understand. I do wish I had had someone older and had went through it to have told me the things that I know now. Maybe things would have been different for me.

Originally Posted by takara

I am smart enough to know what gets me pregnant and how to avoid it... and I don't consider it "birth control" by any means. I am just saying that if by some off the wall chance that I were to get pregnant, I wouldn't rule abortion out as one of my options. Don't get me wrong I probably would regret having an abortion emensly, but I would have to deal w/ the consequences of my actions. Both w/ getting pregnant and what I decided to do after I finding out.

~Takara

**Juggernaut** · 03-08-2004, 01:51 PM

I'll waid in on this one if you guys don't mind and I'll give you all something I recently had to deal with conserning this issue.

I recently learned (about a month back) that my daughter was pregnant. The boy she had sex with, I learned after, was 21. She is 16 (yeah, I for sure blame myself for not doing as good a job at raising my daughter as I thought I was). Now here it is that my daughter is 16 and pregnant and no way of taking care of this child as well, in my eyes, ruining any chance she has at leading a normal life if the child is born. Of course I'm very upset over the whole matter but it was my suggestion that she get an abortion. Of course my being a beliver in the good Lord this does NOT sit well with me by any means but my daughter is flesh and blood and I'm trusting in the fact that the Lord will place this sin on my shoulders rather than my daughter. A hell of a thing to put my daughter through and I hated like hell having to watch her go through it but I felt it the best thing to do............my house, my rules.....even if they are wrong or right. A single mother with child is one road no one shuld have to venture down, imho.

It's easy to say you feel this or you feel that until you're in the cross hairs and HAVE to make a choice. However to make abortion illeagle will force doctors to preform these things in back streets on the bad part of towns and wemen WILL die from unregulated abortionists.

As for lumping handicapped, mentally ill and others into the ellimination thing that Taejoon mentioned.................then you'd have killed off Steven Hawkins and hundreds of others who've contributed greatly to the population. Just because you can't walk doesn't mean you can't contribute. MHO of course...........and based on some of my decisions in life it doesn't amount to ****.

**spywizard** · 03-08-2004, 01:54 PM

Sorry you are going throught this bro....i dodged that bullet.. but we had it planned.. they knew if they got pregnant.. they would go all the way through, and give the child up for adoption..

good luck..

Originally Posted by Juggernaut2148

I'll waid in on this one if you guys don't mind and I'll give you all something I recently had to deal with conserning this issue.

I recently learned (about a month back) that my daughter was pregnant. The boy she had sex with, I learned after, was 21. She is 16 (yeah, I for sure blame myself for not doing as good a job at raising my daughter as I thought I was). Now here it is that my daughter is 16 and pregnant and no way of taking care of this child as well, in my eyes, ruining any chance she has at leading a normal life if the child is born. Of course I'm very upset over the whole matter but it was my suggestion that she get an abortion. Of course my being a beliver in the good Lord this does NOT sit well with me by any means but my daughter is flesh and blood and I'm trusting in the fact that the Lord will place this sin on my shoulders rather than my daughter. A hell of a thing to put my daughter through and I hated like hell having to watch her go through it but I felt it the best thing to do............my house, my rules.....even if they are wrong or right. A single mother with child is one road no one shuld have to venture down, imho.

It's easy to say you feel this or you feel that until you're in the cross hairs and HAVE to make a choice. However to make abortion illeagle will force doctors to preform these things in back streets on the bad part of towns and wemen WILL die from unregulated abortionists.

As for lumping handicapped, mentally ill and others into the ellimination thing that Taejoon mentioned.................then you'd have killed off Steven Hawkins and hundreds of others who've contributed greatly to the population. Just because you can't walk doesn't mean you can't contribute. MHO of course...........and based on some of my decisions in life it doesn't amount to ****.

**Mart651** · 03-08-2004, 01:57 PM

I realy shedded a tear for you brother and know how hard it had to have been. Wether it was the right thing or wrong thing, it is not my place to judge you.

I was raised by a single mother and thank God everyday that abortion was not so popular back then.

I will pray for your daughter and hope that she does not go threw what I have put myself threw over the years.

Originally Posted by Juggernaut2148

I'll waid in on this one if you guys don't mind and I'll give you all something I recently had to deal with conserning this issue.

I recently learned (about a month back) that my daughter was pregnant. The boy she had sex with, I learned after, was 21. She is 16 (yeah, I for sure blame myself for not doing as good a job at raising my daughter as I thought I was). Now here it is that my daughter is 16 and pregnant and no way of taking care of this child as well, in my eyes, ruining any chance she has at leading a normal life if the child is born. Of course I'm very upset over the whole matter but it was my suggestion that she get an abortion. Of course my being a beliver in the good Lord this does NOT sit well with me by any means but my daughter is flesh and blood and I'm trusting in the fact that the Lord will place this sin on my shoulders rather than my daughter. A hell of a thing to put my daughter through and I hated like hell having to watch her go through it but I felt it the best thing to do............my house, my rules.....even if they are wrong or right. A single mother with child is one road no one shuld have to venture down, imho.

It's easy to say you feel this or you feel that until you're in the cross hairs and HAVE to make a choice. However to make abortion illeagle will force doctors to preform these things in back streets on the bad part of towns and wemen WILL die from unregulated abortionists.

As for lumping handicapped, mentally ill and others into the ellimination thing that Taejoon mentioned.................then you'd have killed off Steven Hawkins and hundreds of others who've contributed greatly to the population. Just because you can't walk doesn't mean you can't contribute. MHO of course...........and based on some of my decisions in life it doesn't amount to ****.

**Juggernaut** · 03-08-2004, 02:12 PM

Mart, Spy.....thanks brothers.

Spy, had my daughter been 16 going on 17 I might have agreeded to that myself.........but her being 16 for one day and then finding this out............I didn't think it was something she could handle............as well as myself. To be honest it was my selfishness that chose this option more than anything else because I know I'd have been the one to raise this child.

Again thanks

**spywizard** · 03-08-2004, 02:19 PM

That's ok man............... i'm about to go through the whole process again.. getting pregnant.. maybe.......

anyway.... look in my signature..... it is a quote from Cycleon.... and it is very true...

If God forgives you.... who are you to keep punishing yourself... you have to let it go..

and i agree with you.. just keep loving her... period.........

good luck....

Originally Posted by Juggernaut2148

Mart, Spy.....thanks brothers.

Spy, had my daughter been 16 going on 17 I might have agreeded to that myself.........but her being 16 for one day and then finding this out............I didn't think it was something she could handle............as well as myself. To be honest it was my selfishness that chose this option more than anything else because I know I'd have been the one to raise this child.

Again thanks

**takara** · 03-08-2004, 03:02 PM

That is a tough situation... but, only you could decide what steps to take for both your happiness and your daughters happiness.

~Takara

**Tock** · 03-08-2004, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Taejoon

There is no difference between a child that's 6 months in the womb and a 1 year old outside the womb.

Traditionally, people's lives start at birth. How old are you? Is YOUR age judged from the day of your birth, or the day of your conception?
Some cultures (large parts of Asia) allow infanticide if the child is a female, the ancient Spartans used to kill any weak infants and some females, under certain conditions. The precedent here in the US and Europe is that it is, for the most part, ok to abort a fetus up until a certain number of months.

I am of the opinion that individuals should have the right to control what they do with their own bodies, and are better able to make personal judgements of morality for themselves than a bunch of corruptible (taking $$$ from special interest groups) legislators.

JMO . . .
--Tock

**Tock** · 03-08-2004, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by mart651

I for one am not proud of a lot of things I have been involved in, in my past.
I have had expierence with abortion and can say that it is my greatest regret in life.
I have one child and one on the way. I would have another one right now but the girl that I was with and myself decided to kill it.

Lord knows I wish I could go back and change this one thing.

I'm gonna make a wild guess and say that you made the very best decision you could have made under situation you were then dealing with, so there's no reason to be so hard on yourself.
Am I right or am I wrong?

--Tock

**Tock** · 03-08-2004, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

tock - now see how different it reads when you change the question? easy to skew polls by how you ask the question

Man oh man . . . I can't beleive you changed it . . . just to try to change the outcome of the vote . . .
Sheesh . . .
-Tock

**bermich** · 03-08-2004, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by spywizard

Actually it's only been about the past 30 years or so that kids with special needs survived much past child birth....

think about it......... a child with mental, or physical issues were of no use to the family, and thus would be drowned, or starved, or killed outright.....

A child is a child... who has the right to kill someone?? without consiquence??

for even if a pregnancy is terminated because of health issues, or convinience of the woman............ a life is still stopped....

Has anyone ever spoken to someone who has had an abortion... likes years later?? I have................ she was messed up with guilt.........

Ive spoken to several women whom have had abortions and none of them are messed up with guilt. They would have been messed up with other issues if they had a child.

It all boils down to RELIGION. Cycleon mentioned it has to do with determining when a life becomes a life. That goes back to religion since religions feel that even PULLING OUT is killing a life. That sort of thinking is just nonesense.
If you go by medicine and science, then it would be determined that the brain does not form for about 3 months. Religion cant dispute that. Getting all emotional and saying life takes place even before conception is not even worth arguing about.
Straight and simple: Stay the fvck out of other peoples business and worry about yours.
Back to religion: God is all knowing so he must KNOW that the mother was gonna have an abortion and that child would not live. So, therefore, that life was not really meant to be anyway. Since there is a plan for everything.

**spywizard** · 03-08-2004, 05:59 PM

Wow,,,, i've never heard that.........pulling out is killing..... you must have been raised catholic..??

Personnally............it is my business... when my tax dollars go to kill other people.........children......or pay to raise them to adulthood.........

I would rather a woman get an abortion.... rather than have to take care of another worthless human being that will never be a productive member of society...........

So.......... indeed it is my business.... when it's my money.........

and yes............ dropping bombs on dumbas* people is a good thing.......

JMO..........

Wow........ just read that......... don't mean to go off there Bermich......... your comments just caught me off guard..........

but i do feel that way.........

Originally Posted by bermich

Ive spoken to several women whom have had abortions and none of them are messed up with guilt. They would have been messed up with other issues if they had a child.

It all boils down to RELIGION. Cycleon mentioned it has to do with determining when a life becomes a life. That goes back to religion since religions feel that even PULLING OUT is killing a life. That sort of thinking is just nonesense.
If you go by medicine and science, then it would be determined that the brain does not form for about 3 months. Religion cant dispute that. Getting all emotional and saying life takes place even before conception is not even worth arguing about.
Straight and simple: Stay the fvck out of other peoples business and worry about yours.
Back to religion: God is all knowing so he must KNOW that the mother was gonna have an abortion and that child would not live. So, therefore, that life was not really meant to be anyway. Since there is a plan for everything.

**Taejoon** · 03-08-2004, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Tock

Traditionally, people's lives start at birth. How old are you? Is YOUR age judged from the day of your birth, or the day of your conception?
Some cultures (large parts of Asia) allow infanticide if the child is a female, the ancient Spartans used to kill any weak infants and some females, under certain conditions. The precedent here in the US and Europe is that it is, for the most part, ok to abort a fetus up until a certain number of months.

I am of the opinion that individuals should have the right to control what they do with their own bodies, and are better able to make personal judgements of morality for themselves than a bunch of corruptible (taking $$$ from special interest groups) legislators.

JMO . . .
--Tock

Traditionally, the count of your current age in human years starts off at birth. But, as we all know, tradition has little to do with reality. Furthermore, what does "tradition" have to do with determining the reality of whether or not an unborn fetus is a "person"?

I completely agree with you on your history and analysis of other cultures. But your argument still in no place negates the fact that abortion is murder. All you've done is state that throughout history, and even in the present, abortion is permitted and accepted in other parts of the world. We all know this, that doesn't change anything.... I want to see someone try to argue that it's not murder.... And then watch them fall flat on their face, because you can't. There are two lines of scientific and logical reasoning you can take on the issue:

1. It's murder and must be stopped....

2. It's murder and I'm okay with it....

Medical science doesn't allow us much room for any other lines of reasoning. We know that around the 3 month mark, fetuses start developing brains. Once those brains start to develop, the fetus begins to learn things in a limited manner, but the point is they are learning things none the less. Learning constitutes the accumulation of knowledge, which constitutes the development of a personality. And anything with a personality can be considered a person. So there you have it again, no matter how you slice it, after a certain amount of time is spent in the womb, that fetus is a person, and aborting it means ending its life, which again would be murder.... We keep coming back to that word.... Murder.... Just can't seem to get away from the reality of it.

Peace

-Taejoon

**stengun** · 03-08-2004, 09:42 PM

Howdy,

I'm for retroactive abortions!!!

Stengun

**markas214** · 03-08-2004, 11:37 PM

[QUOTE=Taejoon]You're telling me that other mammals do not have the ability to "empathize" and "relate" to one another?

Yes. Empathy is the ability to understand what others are feeling and why.It requires reason. Animals can't empathize or "relate" on an emational or intellectual level.

"Well, all I can say on that is that you're dead wrong, and you should have paid more attention in your anthropology classes when they were talking about evolution and the social behavior of primates."

Ah but primates lack humanity which is a point you chose to ignore.

"As for babies magically turning into "persons" once they are spit out of the womb.... That's just a crock of crap, there is no basis for your conclusion!"

It was not stated as a conclusion but as an observation. To say there is no difference between a 6 month fetus and a 1 year old child remains ludicrious and is an ignorant statement plain and simple. My basis is my personal experience with my own children and their development.

"Not only that, but it's a known scientific fact that developing fetuses begin to learn and recognize sounds long before their lungs ever taste the air of the world."

It is not learning but developing senses to which you refer. A big differnce.

"Hence, any kind of learning that a child undergoes, whether they are inside of, or outside of the womb, constitutes the development of what you so affectionately dubbed a "personality", which would in turn mean that the thing with the “personality” would have to be a “person”. So, you pretty much contradicted yourself and just agreed with me that aborting an unborn child is the same thing as aborting a “person”, which would make it murder."

Aborting afetus may well be murder in a pure sense. I would never take part in one. I become less pro-choice each year.

"\Good line of reasoning, way to go on that one…. With this in mind it seems that you're the type of person that would fall into the category of "delusional", that is, those people that try to convince themselves that abortion is not murder in order that they may still sleep at night (Denial makes all your problems dissapear, right?). Me, I simply acknowledge abortion for what it is, and realize that it has its place in modern society, and I personally suggest you do the same. Or, on the other hand, you could head down to your nearest church, pick up a Bible and jump on the Pro-Life bandwagon.... It's up to you.... "

No thanks I'm an atheist. I don't believe as I do because of theological dogma but as a member of the human race that recognizes the uniqueness of our species. As I said before those who kill other humans are psycho/sociopathic. Talk about anthrapology, they haven't quite eveolved to the level of having humanity.