Fallujah Massacre (MAY JUSTICE BE SWIFT)

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Tock
If Militiaguy is a terrorist, I presume that means he has committed terrorist acts.
Unless that charge can be backed up, I don't think it should be repeated.
Of course, if someone here can, I'd like to see what proof you have . . .
--Tock

I haven't butted in on any of the terrorist debates here on this board, but I have to say, regardless if this guy has or has not committed terrorist acts, he supports a terrorist organization. He's guilty by association. Many Americans are Republican, Democrat, or otherwise, but simply because they vote for a specific party, they identify themselves as belonging to that specific party. Same with religions. (a) Does one need to practice Christianity to be Christian? Or do they simply need to "believe" in Christianity's fundamentals, ideals, and teachings? How does associating or following a terrorist groups ideals and opinions NOT merit the title, "terrorist"?

To answer (a) "Does one need to practice Christianity to be a Christian?" let me quote an oft-heard line in evangelical churches: "Just because you sit in a garage doesn't make you any more of a car than sitting in a church makes you a Christian." That seems to me to be a reasonable standard to apply.
To answer (b) "How does associating or following a terrorist group's ideals and opinions NOT merit the title, "Terrorist?" I would say that just because someone independantly arrives at conclusions that agree in part with that of a terrorist group doesn't necessarily mean he is a terrorist himself. Let's say a person, Mrs. ABC, analyzed the history of the middle east and concluded that Israel has no right to build settlements outside of its UN approved boarders. And lets say that opinion agrees with Terrorist Group XYZ. Does that mean that Mrs. ABC is a terrorist because she shares that opinion along with the XYZ group? I wouldn't think so. Let's say Mrs. ABC conducts further study, and agrees with 90% of XYZ's positions, the 10% being justifications for violence. Now that her opinions are 90% alligned with the XYZ group, is she a terrorist? IMHO, no, not if she does not embrace terror as a means to an end.


Kinda like racists. Lots of 'em around, especially just east of Dallas here in Texas. Do the do anything illegal because of their opinions? No. They are welcome to cherish any opinion they like as long as they don't harm someone of another race.
Same standard should apply to terrorists. You can:
(1) be a bomb-making terrorist, or
(2) provide the means for other terrorists to commit crime, or
(3) sit in yer easy chair and agree with the violence, or
(4) sit in yer easy chair and disagree with the violence, or
(5) git involved in the community and try to change violent ideas and bring about peace & goodwill & etc etc.

Anyone guilty of (1) goes to jail for terrorism, guilty of (2) goes to jail for aiding a criminal but not for terrorism, (3) gets off scott free based on his constitutional right to free speech and freedom of thought, as with (4) and (5).

I dunno what Militiaguy does or has done or wants to do, but until I find out one way or the other, I am inclined to take him at his word that he is not a bomb-throwing terrorist.
There seems to be some controversy over whether or not he supports a "terrorist organization." From what I understand, two countries consider Hizbollah a terrorist group, and the rest of the nations on the planet do not consider Hizbollah a terrorist group. So, I guess this may be one of those situations where everyone gets to right, depending on the viewpoint you look at the situation from. You can look at things either from the perspective of Israel and the USA, or from the perspectives of England, China, Spain, Mexico, Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Turkey, Belgium, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Vietnam, Japan, Russia, Mongolia, North Korea AND South Korea, Austrailia, South Africa, Congo, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Chad, Nigeria, Ecuador, New Zealand, and etc etc etc.

Technically, you could also call anyone a "terrorist supporter" who supports groups thought only the US and Israel to be terrorist groups, such as anyone who supported the Lebanese Hizbollah kicking out Israeli invaders into its sovereign territory, such as myself. But then again, only an American or an Israeli would think to do such a thing, as no other country seems to consider Hizbollah unreasonable for acting the way it did back in the 1980's.

So.
Yah, depending on who's shoes and who's perspectives you've got, anyone can be considered a terrorist, a terrorist supporter, or just a wanna-be. And depending on what country you're in, sometimes even the innocent wanna-bes can be arrested and held in jail for indeterminate time, like what happens in Israel.

==================
Bottom line on all this . . . is for the US to get with the rest of world and make Israel fall back to its 1947 UN approved boundries, get the heck out of occupied territory and stay there. Then set up a UN military force to keep the peace between Israel and Palestine along their borders. Once this is done, it will clear up an awful lot of the middle east hatred for the US, and will create better oil markets for the world, and cheaper energy for a while (until the Arabs run out of oil). It's a pretty simple solution, but frought with US political considerations to prevent it from ever happening. So ya may as well get used to mid east terrorism . . . it ain't gonna get any better until the US politicians decide to hand out justice to the Jews and Arabs.
-Tock

[Tock]

wow......talk about racist and bigoted comments......

1) so if those sterotypes are true....... all guys like it up the butt??

(i know this isn't true, but you are stating your bigoted opinions...... so .....)

and no one but you girlfriends want to see your dong...........


2) once again............. DRAMA from Tock................

1) Actually, some do. It's one of those genetic things where some guys are born with extra nerve endings along and in the butt, and most don't have much if any. Personally, it's not my cup of tea, but there are some men (and women too, btw) who really really really get off on it. Usually have to work up the grand banana a little at a time; like one finger at a time, get things prepared. But ya, it's something that a minority of both gay guys AND straight guys like. It's something y'all might experiment with at home sometime. Fingers first, then candles. If you ain't enjoying it by then, forget it.


2) Ya, Drama . . . guess I'm not very good at it. Maybe next time I'll just give OG a big wet kiss and tell him he's an ok guy . . .

--Tock

[OGPackin]

2) Ya, Drama . . . guess I'm not very good at it. Maybe next time I'll just give OG a big wet kiss and tell him he's an ok guy . . .

--Tock

LoL Tock! I think i would have settled for the kiss.... No more drama from me i promise. I dont agree with u, but that doesnt give me the right to be rude. So i apologize if anything i said offended u!

OG

[Tock]

That's cool . . . x x x x x !

Besides, this has got to be the worst topic ever. I think I'd rather do my taxes again than continue on with this crap. Maybe even answer winnie questions to newbies . .
-Tock

[groverman1]

Tock well bro can u drink winny???????????????????????

[BOUNCER]

That's cool . . . x x x x x !

Besides, this has got to be the worst topic ever. I think I'd rather do my taxes again than continue on with this crap. Maybe even answer winnie questions to newbies . .
-Tock

Tock, you ony think its the worst topic ever because you refuse to research the information that Rak_Ani took the time to find for you and everyone else here, and because you wouldn't open your mind to my own personal experience dealing with Hezbollah while on service with the UN in Lebanon. I'm not asking you to accept everything and not disagree, but you really should just give us the same consideration we gave you in the research we've both done. Reminds me of an old saying

"There's none so blind as he who will not listen".

[jbigdog69]

You don't want tohere my views on this!!!M'guy and "yourself" would be very offended to say the least!!!!!!!

I wanna hear your views DaBull....Peace

[Big Rush]

Originally Posted by Tock
If Militiaguy is a terrorist, I presume that means he has committed terrorist acts.
Unless that charge can be backed up, I don't think it should be repeated.
Of course, if someone here can, I'd like to see what proof you have . . .
--Tock






To answer (a) "Does one need to practice Christianity to be a Christian?" let me quote an oft-heard line in evangelical churches: "Just because you sit in a garage doesn't make you any more of a car than sitting in a church makes you a Christian." That seems to me to be a reasonable standard to apply.
To answer (b) "How does associating or following a terrorist group's ideals and opinions NOT merit the title, "Terrorist?" I would say that just because someone independantly arrives at conclusions that agree in part with that of a terrorist group doesn't necessarily mean he is a terrorist himself. Let's say a person, Mrs. ABC, analyzed the history of the middle east and concluded that Israel has no right to build settlements outside of its UN approved boarders. And lets say that opinion agrees with Terrorist Group XYZ. Does that mean that Mrs. ABC is a terrorist because she shares that opinion along with the XYZ group? I wouldn't think so. Let's say Mrs. ABC conducts further study, and agrees with 90% of XYZ's positions, the 10% being justifications for violence. Now that her opinions are 90% alligned with the XYZ group, is she a terrorist? IMHO, no, not if she does not embrace terror as a means to an end.


Kinda like racists. Lots of 'em around, especially just east of Dallas here in Texas. Do the do anything illegal because of their opinions? No. They are welcome to cherish any opinion they like as long as they don't harm someone of another race.
Same standard should apply to terrorists. You can:
(1) be a bomb-making terrorist, or
(2) provide the means for other terrorists to commit crime, or
(3) sit in yer easy chair and agree with the violence, or
(4) sit in yer easy chair and disagree with the violence, or
(5) git involved in the community and try to change violent ideas and bring about peace & goodwill & etc etc.

Anyone guilty of (1) goes to jail for terrorism, guilty of (2) goes to jail for aiding a criminal but not for terrorism, (3) gets off scott free based on his constitutional right to free speech and freedom of thought, as with (4) and (5).

I dunno what Militiaguy does or has done or wants to do, but until I find out one way or the other, I am inclined to take him at his word that he is not a bomb-throwing terrorist.
There seems to be some controversy over whether or not he supports a "terrorist organization." From what I understand, two countries consider Hizbollah a terrorist group, and the rest of the nations on the planet do not consider Hizbollah a terrorist group. So, I guess this may be one of those situations where everyone gets to right, depending on the viewpoint you look at the situation from. You can look at things either from the perspective of Israel and the USA, or from the perspectives of England, China, Spain, Mexico, Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Turkey, Belgium, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Vietnam, Japan, Russia, Mongolia, North Korea AND South Korea, Austrailia, South Africa, Congo, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Chad, Nigeria, Ecuador, New Zealand, and etc etc etc.

Technically, you could also call anyone a "terrorist supporter" who supports groups thought only the US and Israel to be terrorist groups, such as anyone who supported the Lebanese Hizbollah kicking out Israeli invaders into its sovereign territory, such as myself. But then again, only an American or an Israeli would think to do such a thing, as no other country seems to consider Hizbollah unreasonable for acting the way it did back in the 1980's.

So.
Yah, depending on who's shoes and who's perspectives you've got, anyone can be considered a terrorist, a terrorist supporter, or just a wanna-be. And depending on what country you're in, sometimes even the innocent wanna-bes can be arrested and held in jail for indeterminate time, like what happens in Israel.

==================
Bottom line on all this . . . is for the US to get with the rest of world and make Israel fall back to its 1947 UN approved boundries, get the heck out of occupied territory and stay there. Then set up a UN military force to keep the peace between Israel and Palestine along their borders. Once this is done, it will clear up an awful lot of the middle east hatred for the US, and will create better oil markets for the world, and cheaper energy for a while (until the Arabs run out of oil). It's a pretty simple solution, but frought with US political considerations to prevent it from ever happening. So ya may as well get used to mid east terrorism . . . it ain't gonna get any better until the US politicians decide to hand out justice to the Jews and Arabs.
-Tock

Any way you look at it - a terrorist is a terrorist, whether they act on it or not...supporting terror makes you a terrorist. Hands down. No offense Tock, but I'm glad the majority of the U.S. does not think like you...if they did we would all be speaking German...or worse....French...haha

[DOUGTM1SS]

If there is one thing the countries and terrorist's or resistance movements in the middle east should know we don't take kindly to threats after 9/11. personally I'm
sick of hearing about the middle east period, lets just cutt off all american aid to all
of them and let them fend for themselves, hell they'll still probably still blame us
Americans for their inabilities to resolve their own problems, because of 911 the
use of deadly force is authorized, if you pose a threat to the United States or her allies
we will get you before you can move to accomplish your extremist activities.
I'm ranting sorry, this s**t just boils my blood, we didn't do anything to them personally yet they want us dead, why? WWWWHHHYYYY!!!!!!!!!

[Tock]

I'm ranting sorry, this s**t just boils my blood, we didn't do anything to them personally yet they want us dead, why? WWWWHHHYYYY!!!!!!!!!

The central issue in all of this mess is Israel. In 1948, the United Nations granted statehood to several million Jewish folks on land that had been occupied by Arabs for the past 1900 years, when instead the Arabs had been working to have the entire area made into a Palestinian state. The Israelis drove out lots of the arabs that were in the new Israeli territory (they weren't supposed to) and generated lots of bad blood in the process. The Israelis got lots of foreign aid from Europe and the US, and up until lately, it's been just the US giving Isreal foreign aid ($9 billion a year), so now the arabs are pissed at us because Israel has been doing stuff for years like driving bulldozers across the border into Palestinian towns and demolishing all their property, and then the Israeli military protects Israeli settlers while they build new towns on the rubble. Meanwhile, the displaced Palestinians, now refugees, are without homes and jobs, and they see who's supporting these idiots,
so of course the arabs are going to conclude that the US is helping Israel destroy their homes and towns, and it's largely because of that that they hate the US.

Here's a view of what's going on over there that you won't see in US corporate-controlled newspapers (yep, there's 6 big corporations that control 90% of all of what you see and hear on TV, movies, music, radio, newspapers, magazines, billboards, etc--you want good international news, ya gotta go to foreign sources).
http://www.palsolidarity.org/
They've got Americans and Europeans go over there and stand in front of the Israeli bulldozers to keep 'em from knocking down someone's home, and every now and then they get run over anyway.

But to answer your question, "WHY?!?!?" all they really want is their land back. They're willing to accept the UN 1948 boundries, but Israel isn't. The rest of the nations on the planet think that Isreal should pull back to its 1948 boundries, but the USA doesn't (stupid). So, as long as the US holds on to its stupid foreign policy and supports Israel and its tearing down of Palestinian towns and cities, the arabs are gonna hate us. And I can understand why.

-Tock

[Tock]

Tock, you ony think its the worst topic ever because you refuse to research the information that Rak_Ani took the time to find for you and everyone else here, and because you wouldn't open your mind to my own personal experience dealing with Hezbollah while on service with the UN in Lebanon. I'm not asking you to accept everything and not disagree, but you really should just give us the same consideration we gave you in the research we've both done. Reminds me of an old saying

"There's none so blind as he who will not listen".

No, it's an awful topic because the situation is so dire and the solution is so simple. The solution is so simple that the United Nations is agreed on it, with the exception of the United States and Israel.
So, as far as I'm concerned, screw 'em all . ..
-Tock

"There are none so blind as he who has no eyeballs."
"I once complained I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet. So I took his shoes."

[BOUNCER]

The central issue in all of this mess is Israel. In 1948, the United Nations granted statehood to several million Jewish folks on land that had been occupied by Arabs for the past 1900 years, when instead the Arabs had been working to have the entire area made into a Palestinian state. The Israelis drove out lots of the arabs that were in the new Israeli territory (they weren't supposed to) and generated lots of bad blood in the process. -Tock

What a complete crock of sh*t Tock. Now I know your talking through your ass and ignoring everything factual which has been posted here. If fact is beyond your comprehension try some fiction based on fact and read Leon Uris 'Exodus', if you think that it only tells one side of the story read his sequal 'Haj'.
You know Tock, I had hoped that you had read some of the stuff posted, but sadly you haven't. You truely believe that Palestine (Israel post 1948) was land occupied by only Arabs?. It wasn't, of course they were there too, and yes they were working for a Palestinian state, but running christians and Jews alike from their lands. One other thing, and I know I'm talking to someone not willing to listen now. Palestinian refugee's, they were caused when Palestinians ran from invading Arab forces in their (Arab countries) many, many attacks on Israel over the last 50 yrs.

So Tock, both Rak_Ani and I have posted well researched replies to your posts all week. Give us good people just one, only one tiny bit of fact backing your statement above that comes from your own research please.

Bouncer

[Tock]

What a complete crock of sh*t Tock. Bouncer

Glad you liked it. I understand you actually beleive that Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt 3500 years ago, too. Well, I thrashed that little bit of Bible fiction pretty well not too long ago. But while you can beleive whatever you like, nothing is going to be solved until the Palestinian issue is resolved. As of right now, the only two obstacles to that is the United States (because of its screwed up foreign policy) and Israel. The rest of the United Nations is ready to get things fixed . . .

-Tock

[singern]

It seems to me all the arguing between Military-guy and the rest of moral civilization is realy just a waist of time. These people are brainwashed from birth that they need to die for the cause. They beleive so strongly that they need to me marters. From Kindergarden, to Arabic sesame street, to religious sermons, to family and social indoctrination. We have all seen the childrens TV shows that show 5 year old kids chanting death, blood and waiving guns. We have all seen the parents dressing babys with pretend suicide bombs.
What ever bull Military-Girl will respond with realy is a waist of time. the world is not blind, the world has seen the images, every civilised nation on the planet has experienced the work of these people and there culture.

[BOUNCER]

[QUOTE=Tock]nothing is going to be solved until the Palestinian issue is resolved.
-
You mean untill the free world surrenders to terrorists?.

The rest of the United Nations is ready to get things fixed . . .Tock

I've served with the UN many times, you got to be joking right!

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Tock
nothing is going to be solved until the Palestinian issue is resolved.

You mean untill the free world surrenders to terrorists?.

Making Israel comply with international law is hardly "surrendering to terrorists." And the Palestinians can be made happy by that, and if the rest of the arabs are happy by that, and if it makes the terrorists willing to give up the terror and go back to herding sheep and praying 5 times a day and selling the US lots of cheap oil, I say do it. And do it now. RIGHT now.
-Tock

[MilitiaGuy]

the smartest guy i saw on this board that understand what arabs and muslims want is Tock...things are simple we dont enjoy killing usa -israeli civilians we just want our lands back and we want those land free from all non arabic forces like the usa troops in iraq,saudi arabia,kuwait...we just want to live with dignity and peace not humiliated and cotroled my the american congress...give us our stolen lands and free our occupied lands and everything will be fine

[symatech]

the smartest guy i saw on this board that understand what arabs and muslims want is Tock...things are simple we dont enjoy killing usa -israeli civilians we just want our lands back and we want those land free from all non arabic forces like the usa troops in iraq,saudi arabia,kuwait...we just want to live with dignity and peace not humiliated and cotroled my the american congress...give us our stolen lands and free our occupied lands and everything will be fine

how do you think killing innocent civilians is going to get your land back? you must understand the extreme arrogance on BOTH sides of this issue. suicide bombers, violent acts against civilians, are both stupid and vain attempts to do this. it takes a lot of planning and work to hijack 4 planes and crash them around america. but what exactly did that do for the cause? last i checked these acts of 'terror' saw an exponentially large number of troops deployed to the area. clearly the way 'terrorist' groups are trying to fight this holy war is not working. infact i'd say its backfiring.

"wouldn't it be great if wars could be fought only by the assholes who started them?" in every treaty drafted their is a clause which prevents attacks on the leader of the country,faction,force etc. and why is this? because it's the leaders who draft these documents. but they are not the ones fighting and dying. in the old times (remember honor, chivalry, nobility etc) the king (or whatever you would like to call them) would lead their troops into battle. despite the common misconception, leaders are not elected...they are made.
if you want to crush an army, you take the leader. how do you think killing civilians is going to further your cause? like i said please consider the arrogance. what happened when american civilians were killed. did any lands get returned? did any troops get withdrawn? nope. your lands are still occupied and more troops than ever are in the area.

why would you follow a leader who does not lead you to victory? death and honor are not the same. there is no honor in strapping a bomb to your chest and blowing up a shopping mall...only shame. and it doesnt take a man to kill, it takes a man not to.

[groverman1]

Tock comes off as being this genius, he just reads alot. LOL right Tock.

[MilitiaGuy]

how do you think killing innocent civilians is going to get your land back? you must understand the extreme arrogance on BOTH sides of this issue. suicide bombers, violent acts against civilians, are both stupid and vain attempts to do this. it takes a lot of planning and work to hijack 4 planes and crash them around america. but what exactly did that do for the cause? last i checked these acts of 'terror' saw an exponentially large number of troops deployed to the area. clearly the way 'terrorist' groups are trying to fight this holy war is not working. infact i'd say its backfiring.

"wouldn't it be great if wars could be fought only by the assholes who started them?" in every treaty drafted their is a clause which prevents attacks on the leader of the country,faction,force etc. and why is this? because it's the leaders who draft these documents. but they are not the ones fighting and dying. in the old times (remember honor, chivalry, nobility etc) the king (or whatever you would like to call them) would lead their troops into battle. despite the common misconception, leaders are not elected...they are made.
if you want to crush an army, you take the leader. how do you think killing civilians is going to further your cause? like i said please consider the arrogance. what happened when american civilians were killed. did any lands get returned? did any troops get withdrawn? nope. your lands are still occupied and more troops than ever are in the area.

why would you follow a leader who does not lead you to victory? death and honor are not the same. there is no honor in strapping a bomb to your chest and blowing up a shopping mall...only shame. and it doesnt take a man to kill, it takes a man not to.

i didnt tell i am with what happened the 9/11 but the usa civilian that help the us army and get supplies to bases is not a civilian maybe he is a cia memeber...and many civilians in israel are enrolled in the army but they dont wear army suits

[M PWR]

Dude if u want some land i'll give u a whole island bigger than ur country.
It's called Tasmania, and us aussie's don't want it.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9710/18/fri...asmania.lg.jpg

[symatech]

i didnt tell i am with what happened the 9/11 but the usa civilian that help the us army and get supplies to bases is not a civilian maybe he is a cia memeber...and many civilians in israel are enrolled in the army but they dont wear army suits

no man im not saying you were involved. im just trying to show the big picture here. lets look at this rational for a minute...american civilians in plain clothes could be CIA. but very few are. So you support killing the american civilians because of who they could be? ok, using that train of thought, why dont i just go out and start killing every muslim i see in america. because they could be a terrorist. why dont i strap a bomb to my chest and blow up a mosque? well obviously because its wrong, and not all muslims and arabs in america are terrorists...infact, like the cia in the middle east, very few of the muslims and arabs in america are terrorists. do you see what im saying?

[MilitiaGuy]

no man im not saying you were involved. im just trying to show the big picture here. lets look at this rational for a minute...american civilians in plain clothes could be CIA. but very few are. So you support killing the american civilians because of who they could be? ok, using that train of thought, why dont i just go out and start killing every muslim i see in america. because they could be a terrorist. why dont i strap a bomb to my chest and blow up a mosque? well obviously because its wrong, and not all muslims and arabs in america are terrorists...infact, like the cia in the middle east, very few of the muslims and arabs in america are terrorists. do you see what im saying?

i am not talking about the ppl living in the us they r free to be bad like they want its there country i am talking about those who r active in the middeast

[Rak_Ani]

The central issue in all of this mess is Israel. In 1948, the United Nations granted statehood to several million Jewish folks on land that had been occupied by Arabs for the past 1900 years, when instead the Arabs had been working to have the entire area made into a Palestinian state. The Israelis drove out lots of the arabs that were in the new Israeli territory (they weren't supposed to) and generated lots of bad blood in the process. The Israelis got lots of foreign aid from Europe and the US, and up until lately, it's been just the US giving Isreal foreign aid ($9 billion a year), so now the arabs are pissed at us because Israel has been doing stuff for years like driving bulldozers across the border into Palestinian towns and demolishing all their property, and then the Israeli military protects Israeli settlers while they build new towns on the rubble. Meanwhile, the displaced Palestinians, now refugees, are without homes and jobs, and they see who's supporting these idiots,
so of course the arabs are going to conclude that the US is helping Israel destroy their homes and towns, and it's largely because of that that they hate the US.

Here's a view of what's going on over there that you won't see in US corporate-controlled newspapers (yep, there's 6 big corporations that control 90% of all of what you see and hear on TV, movies, music, radio, newspapers, magazines, billboards, etc--you want good international news, ya gotta go to foreign sources).
http://www.palsolidarity.org/
They've got Americans and Europeans go over there and stand in front of the Israeli bulldozers to keep 'em from knocking down someone's home, and every now and then they get run over anyway.

But to answer your question, "WHY?!?!?" all they really want is their land back. They're willing to accept the UN 1948 boundries, but Israel isn't. The rest of the nations on the planet think that Isreal should pull back to its 1948 boundries, but the USA doesn't (stupid). So, as long as the US holds on to its stupid foreign policy and supports Israel and its tearing down of Palestinian towns and cities, the arabs are gonna hate us. And I can understand why.

-Tock

You're probably not going to read this Tock, as you haven't my past posts (or maybe you have and choose to pretend you haven't) but for the sake of those interested, here are a few corrections:

In 1948, the United Nations granted statehood to several million Jewish folks on land that had been occupied by Arabs for the past 1900 years

Not exactly. The land was occupied by many people. The majority of Arabs that lived in Israel in 1948 were imigrants that came to the area during the Turkish occupation, which you might know wasn't that long ago. The official British reports from the British occupation state that fact.

when instead the Arabs had been working to have the entire area made into a Palestinian state

I wasn't sure what meant by that, but if you meant the "teaming up of several Arab armies against few Jews, many of whom were imigrant holocaust survivors and opening a war" then you're right.

The Israelis drove out lots of the arabs that were in the new Israeli territory

Actually, somewhere around 80% of the Arab refugees have left the area withtout even seeing an Israeli soldiers. They left because the Arab armies called them to leave and they (the armies) will "bring them back to the land as winners of the war". When that didn't happen, the refugees were left in camps and not taken in by the countries they left to. Israel took in aproximately as many Jewish imigrants as the Arab refugees, and still you don't see one Jew living in a refugee camp today. The fact that I don't march outside the UN holding a key to some house in Damascus doesn't mean that my family didn't leave property behind. All it means is that Israel took care of her own while the Arabs left theirs to rot, as they usually do.

The Israelis got lots of foreign aid from Europe and the US, and up until lately

And the Arabs got lots of aid from the communist world lead by Russia. It was in your country's interest to support Israel and still is.

it's been just the US giving Isreal foreign aid ($9 billion a year), so now the arabs are pissed at us because Israel has been doing stuff for years like driving bulldozers across the border into Palestinian towns and demolishing all their property, and then the Israeli military protects Israeli settlers while they build new towns on the rubble

Wow. I don't like repeating myself, but in this case I'll have to make an exception. Go to "google". type in "Muslim Brotherhood" or something of that sort in the search field. Press go, and read the links you come up with. You know what, I'll run a search for you.
http://www.ummah.org.uk/ikhwan/
From this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood here's a quote: "The Muslim Brotherhood opposes secular tendencies of Islamic nations and wants return to the precepts of the Qur'an, and rejection of Western influences"
From this link http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/mb.htm : ""Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope."—Muslim Brotherhood"
From http://www.bartleby.com/65/mu/MuslimBr.html : " The Muslim Brotherhood has given rise to a number of more militant and violent organizations, such as Hamas, Gama’a al-Islamiya, and Islamic Jihad."

I've given you something to start with. You might notice the date it was formed is 1928, 20 years before the formation of Israel, and even then, they hated you.

They're willing to accept the UN 1948 boundries, but Israel isn't. The rest of the nations on the planet think that Isreal should pull back to its 1948 boundries, but the USA doesn't (stupid).

Actually, the "world" decided Israel need to withdraw back to 1967 lines. Besides that, you're demanding of Israel something no other country ever did before. Israel was attacked by the Arabs. It fought in self defense and won the war. Do you know of any other country that was attacked, won the war, and then gave back the land it occupied? Israel is willing to withdraw back to 1967 lines. The problem is that the Arabs don't want it because then they lose the so called legitimacy they get from people like you to terrorise.

[Tock]

Tock comes off as being this genius, he just reads alot. LOL right Tock.

There's a little more to it than that . . . I don't limit my awareness of world events to what is offered by US sources. If all you know is what the US media tells you, well, you only know part of the story; the part approved by big business.
-Tock

[RageControl]

Tock you have failed to make a single valid reply to Rak or bouncers posts. Im still waiting for it......

You are quick to assume others are naive and say they have there eyes closed to the reality of the outside world, yet you can muster up a decent reply to those who are educated on these subjects.

[Tock]

They're willing to accept the UN 1948 boundries, but Israel isn't. The rest of the nations on the planet think that Isreal should pull back to its 1948 boundries, but the USA doesn't (stupid).

Actually, the "world" decided Israel need to withdraw back to 1967 lines.

Nope. Here's UN Resolution #242, check out the sections I highlighted:
--Tock

----------------------------------------------------------------------

U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 242
NOVEMBER 22, 1967

The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Affirms further the necessity

For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.

[Tock]

it's been just the US giving Isreal foreign aid ($9 billion a year), so now the arabs are pissed at us because Israel has been doing stuff for years like driving bulldozers across the border into Palestinian towns and demolishing all their property, and then the Israeli military protects Israeli settlers while they build new towns on the rubble

Wow. I don't like repeating myself, but in this case I'll have to make an exception. Go to "google". type in "Muslim Brotherhood" or something of that sort in the search field. Press go, and read the links you come up with. You know what, I'll run a search for you.
http://www.ummah.org.uk/ikhwan/
From this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood here's a quote: "The Muslim Brotherhood opposes secular tendencies of Islamic nations and wants return to the precepts of the Qur'an, and rejection of Western influences"
From this link http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/mb.htm : ""Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope."—Muslim Brotherhood"
From http://www.bartleby.com/65/mu/MuslimBr.html : " The Muslim Brotherhood has given rise to a number of more militant and violent organizations, such as Hamas, Gama’a al-Islamiya, and Islamic Jihad."

I've given you something to start with. You might notice the date it was formed is 1928, 20 years before the formation of Israel, and even then, they hated you.

Personally, I don't give a rats ass what the Muslim Brotherhood does in the Middle East. If they present a political and religious solution satisfactory to the folks over there, good for them. If they don't want democracy, that is their problem, and their choice.
If they want to wage war with Israel AFTER it moves back to its 1948 boundries, I'll be against it, and so will every non-arab nation on the planet. But anything they want to do now is purely their affair. My guess, though, is just as the Iranis got sick and tired of the extremes of fundamentalist Muslim theology, so will anyone else who takes up with the Muslim Brotherhood, given enough time. And the absolute worst thing the US could do in the middle east is to try to push forms of government on to people who don't want it. It'll just give 'em another reason to resent us.


But, um, what's with this little jewel of prose:

I've given you something to start with. You might notice the date it was formed is 1928, 20 years before the formation of Israel, and even then, they hated you.

Interesting attempt at spreading fear and paranoia. It ain't appreciated, though.
--Tock

[BOUNCER]

Rak_Ani your making things too complicated for Tock

K.I.S.S.

Keep It Simple Stupid...

Tock. Lets keep this very simple and take the Golan. Israel was attacked by Syria twice over the Golan, the first time it defeated Syria (of course) and gave the Golan back only for Syria to use the Golan to launch another ill fated invasion of Israel. Oh yea, it gave most of the Sinai back to the Egyptians too, but kept Eilat. Good move!.. So its simple.... To the victors go the spoils.
No Arab country will ever beat Israel in a war Tock, so hey buddy, why not back a winner!.

Rak_Ani as I'm typing this I'm hoping you and your country and a wonderfull and peacefull Passover.

Bouncer

[Rak_Ani]

Nope. Here's UN Resolution #242, check out the sections I highlighted:
--Tock

----------------------------------------------------------------------

U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 242
NOVEMBER 22, 1967

The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Affirms further the necessity

For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.

From this link: http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/5...9?OpenDocument

Resolution 242 (1967)
of 22 November 1967



The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

2. Affirms further the necessity

(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

(c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

3. Requests the Secretary-General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.

Adopted unanimously at the 1382nd meeting.

The resolution was passed shortly after the 6 day war, during which the territories were occupied. The territories spoken about are the ones taken during the 1967 war (recent conflict as it says) meaning the 1967 lines.

You might also notice this line:
1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

The UN charter says sides in a conflict must resolve it in peaceful ways. By constantly bringing violence and war into the conflict with Israel the Palestinians and Arabs are violating the UN Charter.

territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Thats another part of the resolution violated by the Arabs.

[Rak_Ani]

Personally, I don't give a rats ass what the Muslim Brotherhood does in the Middle East. If they present a political and religious solution satisfactory to the folks over there, good for them. If they don't want democracy, that is their problem, and their choice.
If they want to wage war with Israel AFTER it moves back to its 1948 boundries, I'll be against it, and so will every non-arab nation on the planet. But anything they want to do now is purely their affair. My guess, though, is just as the Iranis got sick and tired of the extremes of fundamentalist Muslim theology, so will anyone else who takes up with the Muslim Brotherhood, given enough time. And the absolute worst thing the US could do in the middle east is to try to push forms of government on to people who don't want it. It'll just give 'em another reason to resent us.


But, um, what's with this little jewel of prose:



Interesting attempt at spreading fear and paranoia. It ain't appreciated, though.
--Tock

You're hopeless Tock. I give up on you. If anyone else wants to try and prove to you you're wrong, they're welcome to, although what I think is that you already know you're wrong, but are too hateful towards Israel to admit it.

[Tock]

You're hopeless Tock. I give up on you. If anyone else wants to try and prove to you you're wrong, they're welcome to, although what I think is that you already know you're wrong, but are too hateful towards Israel to admit it.

I think the focus should be on a solution to the problems, not trying to prove who's right and who's wrong.
My guess is that the whole situtaion will resolve itself in 50 years or so, when the exploding arab population inside Israel gets to the point where they can vote Zionists out and more reasonable folks in. Eventually they may even merge with Palestine and make one big happy arab nation, all with the democratic process.

I can understand why there has has been so little progress over there if the negotiators have the same mind-set as you; accusing people you don't know of being "hateful towards Israel" and etc.

So you may as well enjoy the last few decades of Israel's existance. Once the arabs can vote to re-unite with Palestine through the democratic process, they probably will.

--Tock

[Rak_Ani]

I think the focus should be on a solution to the problems, not trying to prove who's right and who's wrong.
My guess is that the whole situtaion will resolve itself in 50 years or so, when the exploding arab population inside Israel gets to the point where they can vote Zionists out and more reasonable folks in. Eventually they may even merge with Palestine and make one big happy arab nation, all with the democratic process.

I can understand why there has has been so little progress over there if the negotiators have the same mind-set as you; accusing people you don't know of being "hateful towards Israel" and etc.

So you may as well enjoy the last few decades of Israel's existance. Once the arabs can vote to re-unite with Palestine through the democratic process, they probably will.

--Tock

No solution can be reached if one of the sides lives in a lie. Besides that, do you think what you posted is the best outcome possible? Because if you do, I'd hate to think about what would happen to you or your family once the Arabs get their hands on the Israeli nukes. Do you think you're the only one who thinks ahead and sees the demographic problem? Is it possible that maybe the Israeli govt does too and therefore wants to go ahead with the seperation? Has it occured to you that maybe this is why the Palestinians don't want peace talks with Israel?

So you may as well enjoy the last few decades of Israel's existance. Once the arabs can vote to re-unite with Palestine through the democratic process, they probably will.

Actually, if you talk to Israeli Arabs, they will tell you that they don't want to reunite with the Palestinians. Sharon, not long ago, has offered to exchange territories with the Palestinians. He offered areas like the "Wadi Ara" which is an area in Israel with concentrated Israel-Arab population, in return for areas of Jewish settlements in the occupied territories. The biggest opposers of this plan were not the Israeli Jews, not the settlers, and not the Palestinians, but rather the Israeli Arabs, who got hysterical just from thinking about that. Why would they want to unite with a non-democratic leadership which will probably take away their freedom and modern way of life they're used to, if they can continue living in a democratic state that gives them much better life standards and quality than they would ever dream of having in a Palestinian state?

[jbigdog69]

Someone please kill this thread it is giving me a headache. Bottom line is that without democracy all is lost. The drug lords and boss's of Iraq are fighting back for fear that they will not be able to maintain a steady cash flow in a more controlled environment. It all boils down to control of the land and people and religious beliefs. However, if there were better education (which there wil be) the Iraq people would understand that they would be better off with deomocracy. Instead of answering to 1000 different people that have a voice and being shot if something is not don right. They will soon be able to vote for what they believe in. It is sad that there are so many hoodlums and terrorist's in these poor stricken nations. It reminds me of the old wild wild west movies where you could be shot on the spot for looking at someone wrong cause everybody carries a gun. The sooner the people of these nations are more educated on Democracy the better. Sometimes your vote does not go your way and you may loose your job or something but not your life. Everytime one of my brothers has to loose his life over the BS in a foreign land it urks me. It sends cold chills down the back of my spine. Peace in tha middle east!!!! Transfer power and get the hell out!!!

[BOUNCER]

Rak_Ani Tock is winding you up. Tock, your purposely refusing to listen to Rak_Ani's, which is unfair given the amount of research she's posted here. Rak_Ani, even if I wasn't an ardent supporter of Israel and a friend of yours I'd congratulate you on your posts here, they've been first class. Thanks, I've learnt alot as I know others are from discussion I've had off the thread.

I'm doing the only fair thing now, I'm closing the thread. Tock even Militiaguy is trying to give [some] half researched arguments to Rak_Ani, shame on you.

If anyone wants the thread opened again please PM me with a good reason.