Thread: Lab Work... For Test Levels ?
02-09-2002, 10:04 AM #1
Lab Work... For Test Levels ?
My Bro went to the Dr. to see if he could get some Clomid.
This was Three weeks after his last injection of Sustanon . His test dosages through out was 750mg/wk..for 10 weeks
The Dr. wanted to take blood to see if his test level's were down.
The Results came back negative, so the Dr. did not give out any Clomid.
What do you make of this?
02-09-2002, 02:16 PM #2
Re: Lab Work... For Test Levels ?Originally posted by bigtraps
What do you make of this?
First, we need to understand that there is no such thing as "positive" or "negative" labwork for testosterone , specifically a total testosterone test. The T/T is measured in numbers, with 241 to 827 being the "normal" range. Thus, someone is either in or out of normal range. If a person is in normal range, whether his test level is 241 or 827 (or higher), then a prescription is not clinically warranted unless it's for, say, Viagra to treat low libido due to another condition (such as diabetes or a reaction to another prescription medication).
If a person is out of range at the lower end (or if he has low testosterone, the normal prescription is testosterone, not Clomid. In a medical situation, physicians will usually prescribe an alternative delivery situation such as testosterone gel or patches - not that they are any more effective (they are not), it's simply the current trend (and makes the pharmaceutical companies a lot more money).
What a physician will not prescribe is Clomid. Why? Because every drug has one or more indications, the technical term meaning reasons for which the drug can be prescribed. And a low testosterone level is not an indication for a Clomid prescription. (Clomid is used to induce ovulation in women, and that is its only clinical indication.)
So the obvious thing to make of this scenario is that the doctor did not want to prescribe Clomid to a guy. Whether the doctor knew its post-cycle value is unknown; he was obviously unwilling to go beyond the normal indication for the drug.
However, chances are that your brother's testosterone was also in normal range. It may have been low normal, ordepending on his metabolism and any other drugs he did on his cycle, it may have been sky high. There are trends in the effects of AS, but not everyone fits a single clinical profile, and it's possible that your brother's test levels did not dip significantly enough after the cycle to warrant a prescription.
Finally, the total testosterone level is not the only thing which is normally lab tested. If someone goes to a physician and complains about low test (or rattles off a list of symptoms indicative of a low test level), the total testosterone is only the first thing that is tested, usually along with a prolactin test. (In fact, some insurance companies require that both total test and prolactin be tested before patients are covered for Viagra prescriptions.) If the testosterone level is low but the prolactin level is normal, a doctor will then do another total test level along with related tests such as free and weakly binding testosterone, FSH (follicle stimulating hormone), LU (luteinizing hormone), and SBGH (sex binding globulin hormone). (In fact, if you go to the Drug Profiles section of A.R. and look up Clomid, you'll see references to FSH and LU hormone.) Finally, many doctors will even order up an MRI of the pituitary gland, disorders of which can affect test levels.
In short, the more a doctor knows about testosterone and related levels, as well as therapeutic testosterone use, the more he or she is likely to order additional lab work. (Doctors that specialize in this area are endocrinologists and urologists.) So it's not simply a matter of "Not horny? Try test!"
So what do I make of this? Again, that the doctor is very cautious, and probably not very hip. Or that the doctor is hip about AS use but not very tolerant. So what we may be talking about is simply a doctor who is not willing to put his or her license on the line by prescribing Clomid to a guy.
Now, if your brother had only said, "Doc, I'm having trouble getting pregnant . . ."
02-09-2002, 02:28 PM #3
It's hard to beleive, but its true. We are more specialized and know more about this than our doctor's.
I took my son to our Dr. yesterday and talked to him, ONCE AGAIN, about Testosterone Therapy while he was humoring me about my son's cold. I told him I was doing it against his advice and wanted to address it again.
He said that he doesn't understand it and won't prescribe it because he doesn't know if I'll get cancer or something.
That is it! He is fired. I'm changing my HMO to traditional coverage and am going to find a specialist.
Gee whiz. I know when kids are sick and how much cough syrup to give them.
He only charged my HMO $422.00 for his 15 minutes of time!!! Useless to me.
02-09-2002, 03:35 PM #4Originally posted by Methuselah
It's hard to beleive, but its true. We are more specialized and know more about this than our doctor's . . . He said that he doesn't understand it and won't prescribe [testosterone] because he doesn't know if I'll get cancer or something.
The effects of AS are, indeed, something that many (though not all) users know more about than their physicians. The principle is similar to certain chronic diseases like multiple sclerosis, AIDS, Crohns, epilepsy - those who have it end up becoming "proactive patients" and educating themselves about their conditions. Ultimately, they may not know more than most specialists, but they do end up knowing more than most physicians who do not specialize in the field. Even in the case of chronic disorders like ADD, parents end up knowing more about their kids' condition than many doctors because there are resources, organizations, and support groups that specialize in educating "involved consumers" about these issues.
The notion that all doctors are prepared to address all diseases or disorders is as dangerous as the notion that all lawyers can address any area of the law. Art Carey, a Philadelphia Inquirer columnist (who, coincidentally, is a muscle jock that regularly writes columns on lifting and BB), addressed this phenomenon in 1989 in a brilliant article titled "The United States of Incompetence." An attorney he quoted said, "The danger is that law is so complicated today . . . The areas of law are as different one from another as the specialties of medicine. You wouldn't expect a psychiatrist to perform reconstructive surgery on your knee. But that's what some lawyers do, lawyers who desperately want to hold onto any business that walks in their door. They somehow have the notion that because they have a law deree, and because all a lawyer does is work with words, they can handle anything. God help their clients."
The situation is the same with medicine. Frankly, if you have a medical need, you actually want the kind of doctor who is willing to admit that he does not know what the fuck he is doing, then has the insight to refer you to a specialist who does know what he is doing.
However - and this is a cautionary note - we cannot assume that, having read a bunch of posts on an AS board, that we know more than a physician - even one whose head is up his butt with regard to AS, or one who obviously doesn't have a clue when it comes to AS. That's because, as non-physicians with a vested interest, we're looking at a single goal rather than at the big picture. Physicians - even dumb ones (and there are dumb ones out there) - are trained to see the big picture. And if I were seeking a physician who would be cooperative with my goals, I would still want one who is cautious enough to look out for my total health rather than one who would write any prescription I wanted.
Let me simplify it: If you go to a doctor and ask for a prescription for testosterone, Clomid, Nolva, or any other drug, and that doctor writes you a prescription without giving you an exam, discussing the ramifications of that drug, or doing lab work, get your ass out of that office fast and find a competent doctor. Because the putz that would carelessly write a prescription for AS doesn't give a fuck about your overall health, and if he treats you for any other condition (whether a cold, flu, heart attack, stroke, ad infinitum, ad nauseam) with the same level of care he would write a test script, you don't want him as your doctor. Granted, you don't want a judgmental pain in the butt when it comes to AS, but you do want someone who's looking out for you. And his treatment of an AS or test request will be indicative of how his standard of care will be when you actually need medical care.
02-09-2002, 04:49 PM #5
Thanks for the helpfull insight TNT..
You should be a Mod. Thanks for being around.
02-09-2002, 05:11 PM #6Respected Member
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- The Rink!!
sorry to hear that you guys have to pay towards you medical plans..damn...you all have to move up hear to Ontario..Canada for that sack..ahhhh we have it made..
Power to Canada's Medical benefits.
02-10-2002, 02:51 PM #7
That is a great clarification of my point. It is important to find a great doctor and have a good relationship with him/her.
If I had to choose, a prescription writer would be the worse of the two. Hard call, a "Cold and Flu" guy is useless to me.
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