This is what happens after an 8 month cycle. . .

Here's the progress report:

03-04-04 Last shot of the cycle 8 months @ 5-600mgs/wk test E. Or C. And , two 10cc bottles of deca@400mg/week in the middle of the cycle.

03-05-04 Blood work. Test level:1403

04-03-04 begin PCT

04-22-04 end PCT

04-23-04 Bloodwork. Test level:105

05-07-04 Bloodwork. Test level:176

06-14-04 Next scheduled bloodwork. . .

This is slow, I know I started PCT way late. But is this what to expect? I saw the endogrinologist. I had a comprehensive bloodtest done: they drew 8 vials of blood!
The blood work is in range and everything seems fine to the Doc; LH, glands work fine, cholesterol is ok etc. etc.

I thought the board might want to see what happens after a long cycle and improper PCT.

Be well, MrM

im gonna bump this for johnny pheedno or einstien or any other enlightended bro to stuff like this i am very intrested

HOLY $hit, how many mg a week were u hitting for the eight month cycle. i would expect it to have been higher then 1400, but that bottom number is lowwwwwww.

Bump for info.

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Originally Posted by CajunMuscle

HOLY $hit, how many mg a week were u hitting for the eight month cycle. i would expect it to have been higher then 1400, but that bottom number is lowwwwwww.

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I made an edit to the post and listed the doses. Thanks for pointing that out since that's relevant.
MrM

thanks for the post mr mannners. would you have run hcg in your cycle if you had foresight of this outcome?

yes i would recomend running soem trib and hcg on a cycle that long it you do it again

:eek: 8 months :eek:

1. HCG should have been used peridically throughout the cycle

2. Yor PCT was WAY too short for that cycle length. It should have been upwards of around 60 days, using 2 SERMs and an AI

3. Your test levels were at 176, one month after an insuffecient PCT, following an 8 month cycle. Those results are not suprising

4. Total recovery is figured from F. Test, not T. Test so on your next visit, have the doc get free testosterone and sex hormone binding globulin levels.
176 is not in range(How old are you?)

I would run another 14 days of clomid/nolva/L-dex. You can check out my PCT thread for doses

Is HCG offered on research sites? Or is this one of those i have to either get from a doc or in Mexico?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beefydragon

Is HCG offered on research sites? Or is this one of those i have to either get from a doc or in Mexico?

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most sources carry it...

Thank's for your advice

I've got the sheet/work order for the lab sitting in front of me signed and ready to go. There is a box right above the Testosterone box saying:T4Free*
There is nothing on the sheet that reotely resembles sex hormone binding globulin levels.

The following tests where ordered:

Comprehensive metabolic panel
Lipid Panel
CBC w/platelets&diff
FSH
LH
PSA, Total
The doc wrote "Bio Available Testosterone" on the bottom of the sheet.

I will ask him about free test vs. total test.

I am 35 years old so 176 is out of range. However, things are just fine in the sack not quite 4-5 times a day like when on. But at least once. . . :)

I got a bottle of HGC on hand as we speak. . . I can order some more Clomid and nolva as well.

MrM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pheedno

1. HCG should have been used peridically throughout the cycle

2. Yor PCT was WAY too short for that cycle length. It should have been upwards of around 60 days, using 2 SERMs and an AI

3. Your test levels were at 176, one month after an insuffecient PCT, following an 8 month cycle. Those results are not suprising

4. Total recovery is figured from F. Test, not T. Test so on your next visit, have the doc get free testosterone and sex hormone binding globulin levels.
176 is not in range(How old are you?)

I would run another 14 days of clomid/nolva/L-dex. You can check out my PCT thread for doses

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by monstercojones

thanks for the post mr mannners. would you have run hcg in your cycle if you had foresight of this outcome?

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Definitely would have ran HGC if I would have thought it would speed things up a bit. I feel back to normal as we speak, but for a while I had absolutely no intrest in sex whatsoever. It did not even feel good while I was having it That lasted for a couple of week. But that might have been the Clomid.
MrM

Bioavailable test= free test, and that's definitely a number you want to see.
I agree that you should run another 2 weeks at least of clomid + nolva. I wouldn't introduce HCG at this point, but it would have been beneficial earlier.
It's good that you post your difficulties with regaining HPTA function so others can see that proper pct isn't just an insignificant "triviality" of AAS use.

8 months, might as well round up to 12

8 Months??? thats a lengthy cycle dont you think? what were some of your gains??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by -The_Bouncer-

8 Months??? thats a lengthy cycle dont you think? what were some of your gains??

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20lbs and I added an inch to my arms. My incline bench went from a measly 175 to 285 (4X10.)
This was all prior to finding this board. So I could have done that in a shorter time though. Hindsight is 20/20.

With all the good advice and feed back I've gotten I'm sure I'll make even better gains during my upcoming 3 month cycle. Or perhaps I should heed the advice of bubbathegut and just make it an even 12 months :rolleyes:
MrM

hehe no i was just kidding man, i have heard of pro's taking a year long cycle. i thought u were a pro.

bump for those on long ones

Quote:

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Originally Posted by einstein1905

Bioavailable test= free test, and that's definitely a number you want to see.
I agree that you should run another 2 weeks at least of clomid + nolva. I wouldn't introduce HCG at this point, but it would have been beneficial earlier.
It's good that you post your difficulties with regaining HPTA function so others can see that proper pct isn't just an insignificant "triviality" of AAS use.

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Thank you Einstein.

I am a little unsure about when is a good time to introduce HGC?
And if you do does that change the scheduled time for the Clomid?
And should I run Nolvadex all through the cycle?

Thanks, MrM

HCG is best introduced mid-cycle (considering a typical 3 month cycle). It can also be introduced at the end of the cycle, but there are several factors to keep in mind.
1. HCG does NOT restore your bodies ability to produce natural test production, it merely prevents testicular atrophy which in turn means faster recovery time.
2. Dosage of AS should be tapered out evenly the last few weeks before HCG administration, failure to do so will significantly increase estrogen levels (too many androgens = increased estrogen conversion)
I personally would recommend running mid-cycle at 5000 IU on day 1, 5000 IU on day 5, and 5000 IU on day 10. If running at the end of the cycle I would cut the dose in half using the same manner (every 5 days). Nolvadex should be used at the end of your cycle, unless you are pre-disposed to gyno.
Clomid therapy should not start until after HCG administration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Austex

HCG is best introduced mid-cycle (considering a typical 3 month cycle). It can also be introduced at the end of the cycle, but there are several factors to keep in mind.
1. HCG does NOT restore your bodies ability to produce natural test production, it merely prevents testicular atrophy which in turn means faster recovery time.
2. Dosage of AS should be tapered out evenly the last few weeks before HCG administration, failure to do so will significantly increase estrogen levels (too many androgens = increased estrogen conversion)
I personally would recommend running mid-cycle at 5000 IU on day 1, 5000 IU on day 5, and 5000 IU on day 10. If running at the end of the cycle I would cut the dose in half using the same manner (every 5 days). Nolvadex should be used at the end of your cycle, unless you are pre-disposed to gyno.
Clomid therapy should not start until after HCG administration.

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This is an antiquated approach to things. Tapering of AAS dosages is obsolete, since the ester half-lives take care of tapering for you.
High dose HCG is excessive. HCG can (and my opinion should) only be used to restore testicular size.....preventing atrophy is just aesthetics.....restoring testicular size prior to starting PCT is beneficial.....maintaining testicular size is just welcoming some degree of LH desensitization.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beefydragon

Is HCG offered on research sites? Or is this one of those i have to either get from a doc or in Mexico?

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No, but its not scheduled so its not a big deal if you import it.

i dont think 8 months on gear is healthy ,even though,im not an expert on this ,i wouldnt recommend not even my enemy to go on a 8 month cycle,thats some crazy **** bro ,please dont try that again.

thanks for the post...but I think you would have gained those 20lbs in 8 weeks if done properly...but we all learn from our mistakes...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by einstein1905

This is an antiquated approach to things. Tapering of AAS dosages is obsolete, since the ester half-lives take care of tapering for you.
High dose HCG is excessive. HCG can (and my opinion should) only be used to restore testicular size.....preventing atrophy is just aesthetics.....restoring testicular size prior to starting PCT is beneficial.....maintaining testicular size is just welcoming some degree of LH desensitization.

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True, you can figure how many mg of active AAS are in your body and time appropriately. But for most people this is too confusing. Let's just say you have a substance in your body that has a 2 week half-life. After the final injection there is a total of 600mg active AAS in your body (figure A). At the half-life of 2 weeks, figuratively speaking there is still going to be 300 mg of active AAS left. Now, if you were to taper the dose down evenly so that the final injection left you with 200mg of active AAS in your body...the half-life is still 2 weeks but now there is only 100mg of active AAS in your body (figure B). These numbers are just for demonstration purposes, and typically there would be a much higher concentration of active AAS...but you should be able to see what I am explaining.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Austex

True, you can figure how many mg of active AAS are in your body and time appropriately. But for most people this is too confusing. Let's just say you have a substance in your body that has a 2 week half-life. After the final injection there is a total of 600mg active AAS in your body (figure A). At the half-life of 2 weeks, figuratively speaking there is still going to be 300 mg of active AAS left. Now, if you were to taper the dose down evenly so that the final injection left you with 200mg of active AAS in your body...the half-life is still 2 weeks but now there is only 100mg of active AAS in your body (figure B). These numbers are just for demonstration purposes, and typically there would be a much higher concentration of active AAS...but you should be able to see what I am explaining.

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I know what you're saying, but you get to the exact same point without tapering. W#e'll use your example:
Say you have 600mg total (which is just an arbitrary number and not a plasma concentration), after 2 weeks you'll have 300, after 4 weeks, 150mg, after 6 weeks, 75mg. So tapering the actual dose just shortens your cycle.....you're going to pass the same plasma AAS concentration as time progresses....tapering just hastens you getting to said plasma concentration. At the doses typically used, the active lives are pretty well-accepted:
http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=94822

You see my point? Tapering merely shortens the effective period of your cycle. If you want to achieve the exact same effect, don't taper but stop your cycle earlier.

I just want to reiterate tapering versus not tapering. I would graph this, but I'm lazy.....
All of the following are arbitrary numbers and aren't meant to depict actual pharmacokinetics, with the exception of diminishing plasma concentrations due to half-lives.
Assume you are going to run an 8 week cycle, and that you you are injecting 500mg/wk of a compound with a 1 week half-life. For arguments sake, let's say you've established a constant plasma level of 1000ng/dL (arbitrary).

Situation A) You continue to inject 500mg/wk all the way through week 8 and then stop cold turkey

Situation B) You inject 500mg/wk weeks 1-6, week 7 you inject 250mg, and week 8 you inject 125mg.

Your plasma concentrations for each situation will be as follows:
A: wk 9= 500ng/dL, week 10= 250ng/dL, week 11= 125ng/dL, week 12= 62.5ng/dL

B: wk7= 750ng/dL, wk 8= 500ng/dL, week 9= 250ng/dL, wk 10= 125ng/dL, wk 11= 62.5ng/dL

So, you'll see that tapering doesn't do anything advantageous for us. The half-life of the compound takes care of the tapering for you. All tapering does is shorten the period of your cycle where you have a consistent peak plasma level, which reduces the time during which you'll see maximal gains.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrmanners

20lbs and I added an inch to my arms. My incline bench went from a measly 175 to 285 (4X10.)
This was all prior to finding this board. So I could have done that in a shorter time though. Hindsight is 20/20.

With all the good advice and feed back I've gotten I'm sure I'll make even better gains during my upcoming 3 month cycle. Or perhaps I should heed the advice of bubbathegut and just make it an even 12 months :rolleyes:
MrM

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1m85 @ 225, you gained 20 lbs, so you were 205
35 years old?

Well no flame intended but this really isn't an achievement! in a 8 month cycle and @ 500/600 mg Test/week + some Deca and no proper PCT, you will have trouble holding this mass (Hope I'm wrong)...

I just don't understand why you only gained 20 lbs --> @ 205 lbs, 1m85 and 12-15% BF you shouldn't be way over your genetic potential...

I wish you better luck next time, and trust me 8 months is very damaging to your bodies hormonefeedbackfunction...
Furthermore recent studies have shown that in very long "optimal conditions" (so what we call "juicing" ) compromises homeostasis (so the bodies optimal state) and mainly on telomer-length
(which we since HUGO came to understand much better --> It basically is the metre for how old you are gonna get and if you will be fit at a higher age or not!) we knew that eating too much seriously shortened potential lifespan but Juicing also does (due to the body working "overtime") the longer the "optimal condition" (so the cycle) beyond a certain point the exponentially worse the telomershortening becomes!!...

(I think this is exactly why pros who juice all year and bridge usually don't get past 45!)

Next time try to keep your cycle 4-5 months tops (including PCT)!
With a much better "supplementchoice".
And focus on diet and training --> It can get you that 20 lbs in less then 4 months!

Stay safe
Kingofmasters

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pheedno

1. HCG should have been used peridically throughout the cycle

2. Yor PCT was WAY too short for that cycle length. It should have been upwards of around 60 days, using 2 SERMs and an AI

3. Your test levels were at 176, one month after an insuffecient PCT, following an 8 month cycle. Those results are not suprising

4. Total recovery is figured from F. Test, not T. Test so on your next visit, have the doc get free testosterone and sex hormone binding globulin levels.
176 is not in range(How old are you?)

I would run another 14 days of clomid/nolva/L-dex. You can check out my PCT thread for doses

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Good advice, but I would run the clomid again for minimum of 4 weeks @ 100 mg/day. I have had similiar bloodwork in the past, and I found that after long cycles you really do need to give yourself a much longer PCT. You will recover, it will just take time.