Nolvadex vs. Proviron

[Lozgod]

What is better to run during a cycle? To avoid test bloat, water retention, and the other sides associated with the elevated estrogens from AAS use?
Nolvadex , Proviron , or Armidex?

[kronik]

CLEN is not a anti e or is it???? To my knowledge, which is limited to AS, clen is a anti-catabolic and is used to help decrease BF by raising ones body temp by 1-2 degrees to help speed up metabolism.

[BASK8KACE]

Direct Answer to Your Question:

My choices would change based on what I was using in my cycle:

1. If I were not using deca in a cycle, then my first choice would be Arimidex alone since it is one of the strongest, most effective anti-e's.
2. If I were running deca in a cycle, then I would use Proviron due to its secondary effect on erections to counteract deca dick.
3. If I found via blood tests that my lipids (specifically HDL) where heavily and badly affected by my cycle, I would use Nolvadex with Arimidex, or Nolvadex with Proviron (based on whether deca was in the cycle, as noted in sections 1 and 2 above.
4. Since you didn't state Nolvadex with Arimidex as a choice,
I would choose Nolvadex alone, with a solid good PCT plan to prevent estrogen rebound (see below).

Background Information:

Clenbuterol is neither an anti-estorgen (anti-e) nor a steroid hormone; it is a beta-2-symphatomimetic. Clenbuterol is a strong anti-catabolic, which means it decreases the rate at which protein is reduced in the muscle cell, consequently causing an enlargement of muscle cells. For this reason, people use Clenbuterol after a cycle to minimize catabolisim and thus maintain maximum strength and muscle mass.


Proviron, arimidex, and l-dex (liquid version of arimidext) inhibit the aromitization of testosterone to estrogen while Nolvadex blocks the estrogen from doing any harm by blocking the estrogen receptors (estrogen antagonist).

The good and the bad:

Nolvadex is good to have on hand if you begin to have gyno symptoms, because it blocks the estrogen. By the time you see any bad symptoms due to estrogen, it's too late to use an aromitization inhibitor such as Proviron, arimidex, or l-dex.

Again, Nolvadex does not control the amount of estrogen, it just blocks it from getting to receptors, so after you stop using Nolvadex, there might be a lot of estrogen still in your system that can do harm. Some have experienced a reboud effect when using Nolvadex: After they stop using it the estrogen that has built up in the system reaches estrogen receptors and causes problems that were delayed by using Novladex.

Think of it like this:

Proviron, arimidex, and l-dex prevent the fire from starting. Nolvadex suppresses/temporarily extinguishes the fire after it has already begun.

Furthermore:

Inhibitors such as a-dex and femara effect lipids(primarily HDL) because estrogen greatly contributes in the stabilization of cholesterol. If you inhibit the production of estrogen, the lipid environment can become "unstable." **

Nolva being a SERM, helps eliminate blood estrogen by binding to the receptor, but doesn't prevent conversion (as noted above); in addition it mimics liver and bone estrogen which help in creating a healthy heart environment.**

**--NOTE: The two paragraphs (immediately above) marked with asterisks are paraphrased paragraphs from a post by PHEEDNO.

Extra info:

SERM
SELECTIVE ESTROGEN RECEPTOR MODULATORS

The group of drugs classified as SERM selectively acts on estrogen receptors present in different tissues and organs: breast, uterus, bones. Their agonistic action on bone and lipid metabolism has been documented in clinical trials. Positive influence on bones appears as the inhibition of bone resorption (confirmed with bone markers) and estrogen-like increase in bone mineral density, and in consequence decrease in the risk of osteoporotic bone fractures. Their agonistic action on lipids is shown as the decrease in serum total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol, without significant influence on HDL-cholesterol and TG.

SERM do not stimulate the uterus and breast, contrary to estrogens which increase the risk of neoplasms. Their unfavorable influence on the activation markers of hemostasis and fibrinolysis was not found.

[eph]

hi guys I hope some one can take the time to help me. my whol life since a teenager ive always been very skiny but store a lot of fat on my chest hips and stomach areas, ive been to countless docs that say everything is good, this gives me a very feminine shape and killed my self asteem/confidence early on. now in my mid 30s ive decided to take things into my own hands. so I tested the waters with this stack.

week 1, 300mg of test enthanate
week 2,150mg
week 3,150mg
everyday half pill (.5mg)of arimedex

end of first week started feeling lots of energy my confidence explodes, week 2 seeing muscle increase in my neck traps legs, fat on hips and love handles shrinking! I felt so good and had such a good drive I actually approached some women and chated with them. Now heres the problem week3 I start noticing my chest getting fatty and nipples start hurting to the touch bad! I panic! take a full capsule of arimedex and I don't take my 4th week test shot. now end of 4th week I feel week tired depressed im still taking 1mg of dex daily and have mild soreness in my wrists joints but at least chest is not bothering me.. im extremely disappointed and depressed now I felt amazing and now lost it all. I have done some reaserch that's how I knew to load up the first test shot, hope some one will take the time to help me out any sugestions for anti Es or what I should change. I did also get letro and clomid but never used it yet. thanks in advance to any pros out there

[clarky.]

Why did you bump a thread from 04 ?

[DAAS]

the lethargy and joint pain is probably a side effect from the Arimidex . Not sure how you could have estrogen problems with that low of a dose of test with that much adex. You're taking .5mg everyday?

edit: next time start a new thread.

[clarky.]

the lethargy and joint pain is probably a side effect from the Arimidex . Not sure how you could have estrogen problems with that low of a dose of test with that much adex. You're taking .5mg everyday?

edit: next time start a new thread.

If that's for real he would have crashed his e2 with that amount of adex. Have you got blood work you can post eph ?? if this is for real of course.

[DAAS]

Yeah I would think so too, but he shouldnt be getting puffy with that much adex, so idk whats going on

If that's for real he would have crashed his e2 with that amount of adex. Have you got blood work you can post eph ?? if this is for real of course.

[eph]

hi Dass! ive struggle with gyno my whole life never knew it had a name until I recently came across it online. I remember in grade 7 was the worst tim in my life I was very awkward my nips would be so itchy I couldent even concentrate on my assignments. ive updated my post to give a few more info as well.

im taking a full armidex pill right now per day, its 1mg. So I should go back down to .5mg per day then

[eph]

no blood work clark. I can go get them done though.

[XxAndreaxX]

in 2004 people were dumb and thaught nolva and proviron would quit the bloat haha. nolva won't quit the bloat because its selective. it will only prevent formation of gyno but water and estro will rise anyway. proviron is an AAS, its known for its semi-anti-e propreties, but pfff I wouldn't put my hand on fire that it would help that much. an Ai is the oly real anti-bloat trick, because it deactivates (or kills in case of stane) the aromatase enzime. so no extra estrogen will be built.

[eph]

yes I was taking .5 half of a pill, but when I noticed the gyno I started taking 1 full pill 1mg per day

[scotty51312]

Simplify this Adex is and AI, Meaning it inhibits the enzyme that converts test into estrogen.

SERM's simply block the estrogen receptors so estrogen doesn't effect you negatively

Why would i want to run something that allowed test to convert to estrogen when i could just avoid the process and have more test in my system? Save the SERM for PCT unless you get gyno

As far as the previous comments about Deca dick, if you run test with your deca you shouldn't have any problems with this. Deca's sides are progesterone related. Proviron will have no effect on progesterone it only inhibits SHGB (sex hormone binding globulin) which is why it helps with erections. If you have 19 nor (deca tren ) side effects it would be better to run cabergoline

Hope that clears things up a bit

[eph]

ya sorry guys I tride to make a new thread! it would not let me, saying I was a spam bot and that I didn't have 25 post. this was only thread I could post it on sorry again!

[DAAS]

1mg of adex a day is a LOT! in the past ive taking .25mg every 3 days and been fine. If youre getting more gyno while on that much adex id stop steroid use . maybe continue with .25mg every 5 or 6 days to help with your natural gyno problem but Id wait to hear from some more people.

hi Dass! ive struggle with gyno my whole life never knew it had a name until I recently came across it online. I remember in grade 7 was the worst tim in my life I was very awkward my nips would be so itchy I couldent even concentrate on my assignments. ive updated my post to give a few more info as well.

im taking a full armidex pill right now per day, its 1mg. So I should go back down to .5mg per day then

[DAAS]

those comments about deca and such are from 2004,

Simplify this Adex is and AI, Meaning it inhibits the enzyme that converts test into estrogen.

SERM's simply block the estrogen receptors so estrogen doesn't effect you negatively

Why would i want to run something that allowed test to convert to estrogen when i could just avoid the process and have more test in my system? Save the SERM for PCT unless you get gyno

As far as the previous comments about Deca dick, if you run test with your deca you shouldn't have any problems with this. Deca's sides are progesterone related. Proviron will have no effect on progesterone it only inhibits SHGB (sex hormone binding globulin) which is why it helps with erections. If you have 19 nor (deca tren ) side effects it would be better to run cabergoline

Hope that clears things up a bit

[clarky.]

You need to get some blood work done asap.

[scotty51312]

^^ Which makes them less true? Only speaking from personal experience. Never had any sides from 19nors running caber

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

You need to get some blood work done asap.

No doubt about it and you need BW but your E2 has crashed !

1) You should have acne .
2) Fell like crap .
3) Have no energy as in don't go to the gym and lie about it .
4) You should have no fluid retention .
5) If running Cailas you should be vascular as hell .

If these things are not true and at that level of Adex you are all screwed up and your Test level is not where you want it and your E2 should be near 1 or 2 and the lowest you want it and feel good is 29 . So you figure out what you have done and what you are admiting to ? If you want help post macros, stats, experience, also start drinking Shit loads of water and donate whole red blood for possible relief of joint pain and again not maybe but forsure get blood work ? Age ? Under the care of a Dr. ? I assume you have stopped the AAS use and are in PCT now anyway since you were doing Testestrone E wait 4 weeks after last injection and make sure you use HCG ASAP to crank the boys back up ?

Where did you learn a cycle like that and who told you to take 1 mg of Adex a day ? That is the dose that women who have had breast cancer take ?

Even if you are only doing cycles 2 possibly 3 a year; lots of great info in Anti-aging section, TRT. Read and learn all the stickies because you can use them now and if you keep being this reckless you will be on TRT soon and after the age of 30 you can o to lowtestosterone.com and they will fix you for $199.00 a mth and that includes Cypionate and proper AI and HCG all that you need for a year and the $199.00 is for a year so baciclly you contact them if you are 30 and tell them the truth about what you have done and want to have your Testosterone levels checked and you want to get your Testosterone level balanced ? You need to start back at square one and you will learn a lot while dealing with lowteatosterone.com . $199.00 per mth for 12 mths = $2400.00 and ou are supplied all the meds you need to be balanced and you will start at square one and feel good and be healthy again

IMO you need to completely get all AAS out of your system and do very good PCT and if you know how to read blood work have it done ? Go to TRT and anti aging section of the forum and learn how to read blood panel and what to request and there will also be a sticky that tells you what lab to contact to have private Blood Panel done and where to go to on-line to pick the proper blood work and what to order .

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

no blood work clark. I can go get them done though. GET IT NOW !

Hello young friend . I am conserned as to why you would be your age and not have been a little wiser in your starting a cycle and not have current or atleast 3 mths ago blood work in hand ? Sir I would not want you to feel unwelcome or even remotly put down by me . You are not a kid and if you are going to cycle why would you not have the proper tools in hand to decide the type of cycle you choose to do also if you would have had blood work you would have known how much Ai you were going to need to stay in the good range 23 to 26 + or- a couple of points, or if you were already in the high rnge which would have been a sign to get it under control before you start, right !

I would take for granted you already have your PCT products in hand and if you don't go to the Anabolic Section and the section on cycling and read the stickies and learn ! At your age you should not have to be spoon feed and how many cycles have you done prior to this ? I would hope none with the condition you gyno is in but, then how did it get so sever as you stated ? I am willing to bet this is 3 or 4 sooooo as the old saying goes the Buck stops with you Read and figure out what is going on in your body ! You should have had all the answers to the questions you are asking before you started and an even stronger Ai that Adex is Letro it will STOP Estrogen in it's tracks and contrary to previously stated Letro is stronger than Adex

Read and gain knowledge !