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Thread: Conservative?

  1. #1
    Da Bull's Avatar
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    Conservative?

    Are we here at AR becoming to conservative with our advise?I've been observing many posts over the last few months,and I see a trend.It seems as though a few solid bros give advise to one person saying only do a Test cycle for your first.Then we have a breed of parrots who follow that to a tee.Now I'm all for safety,and that is one of our goals here on AR,but I see it over and over again.Just do a Test cycle only,and see how you react to that compound.I disagree with this.I think a person can safely do a Test/Deca ,Test/dbol ,/Test/Eq cycle with no harm done at all.Some say don't do a deca/test cycle your first time,for it will shut you down hard.Fine,well if they do it a second cycle they'll be shut down just as hard as on a first cycle.It's like saying only drink beer your first time to see how you react,then you can smoke pot with it later.I know several MOD's on the board who feel it's safe to stack another compond with Test on a first cycle.Look at Ron's sticky.Look at the beginner cycles on the home page.

    Anyway,I just brought this up for disussion sake,nothing more.I don't want this to turn into a flame thread.I just would like to see everyones thoughts on this topic.

    ~DB

  2. #2
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    good point, i agree with you as well. i do see the validity of having a straight test cycle for the purposes of seeing how one's body reacts to testesterone and then move to more compounds tho at the same time

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    I disagree with this a bit....... deca , fina, drol, halo, and some others but these are either to harsh or will shut the user down to hard........ not good for a first go......

    I do agree that adding a second compound to the cycle is good....... like EQ, winny, anavar , d-bol........

    You need to know how you're going top respond to AS and if you add these harsher compounds to a first cycle then you're looking for trouble..... there are guys that have many cycles under their belts and can't handle some of the harsher compounds...... JMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Bull
    Are we here at AR becoming to conservative with our advise?I've been observing many posts over the last few months,and I see a trend.It seems as though a few solid bros give advise to one person saying only do a Test cycle for your first.Then we have a breed of parrots who follow that to a tee.Now I'm all for safety,and that is one of our goals here on AR,but I see it over and over again.Just do a Test cycle only,and see how you react to that compound.I disagree with this.I think a person can safely do a Test/Deca ,Test/dbol ,/Test/Eq cycle with no harm done at all.Some say don't do a deca/test cycle your first time,for it will shut you down hard.Fine,well if they do it a second cycle they'll be shut down just as hard as on a first cycle.It's like saying only drink beer your first time to see how you react,then you can smoke pot with it later.I know several MOD's on the board who feel it's safe to stack another compond with Test on a first cycle.Look at Ron's sticky.Look at the beginner cycles on the home page.

    Anyway,I just brought this up for disussion sake,nothing more.I don't want this to turn into a flame thread.I just would like to see everyones thoughts on this topic.

    ~DB
    i agree with this 100%...in fact when i was planning my first of sust and deca...everyone in the open forum said "NO, NO, NO...just do test, and get a single ester...blah blah blah"...

    but then a few solid bros kinda "took me under theyre wings" and even decided for my goals to add tren ...

    so guess what?..i did a Sust/Deca/Tren cycle for my first!!!...thats right, i used tren AND deca in my first and i did just fine...

    generic info is good for some who have no clue what so ever, and to those that arent willing to do the reasearch and learn...but if you honestly can tell your self you have done enough research and know enough about the compond then i say go for it...

    good thread DB...nice to see some change around here!

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    I suggest Test only cycles because as a first cycle you'll still get great gains from it with proper diet and lifting. You'll also save a little money. I think its smart to start out this way because then on your second cycle you can mix in EQ or Deca and once again get good results. Where as you start out mixing too much stuff in the beginning you'll just need to continue to use higher amounts of gear in order to get similar results.

    I also see nothing wrong with a deca only cycle. I've know plenty who have done deca only cycles and loved it, didn't have any problems. I think the chances of 'deca dick' are slim personally.

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    for me, i got great results from test only, that is why i recommend it, i also say this because many newbies dont understand about the diet and training, and pct, and a lot of them cant find anti e's! so the less substances they use the better, and if you are not eating enough and are not able to get gains off test alone, then there should be no need for them to use aas, so i say try test first, if you grow, then take it to the next level, if you dont, well, its there choice, JMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMudMan
    I disagree with this a bit....... deca , fina, drol, halo, and some others but these are either to harsh or will shut the user down to hard........ not good for a first go......

    I do agree that adding a second compound to the cycle is good....... like EQ, winny, anavar , d-bol........

    You need to know how you're going top respond to AS and if you add these harsher compounds to a first cycle then you're looking for trouble..... there are guys that have many cycles under their belts and can't handle some of the harsher compounds...... JMO
    Well I have to agree with mudman. There is nothing wrong with more than one compound but some are off limits for a first cycle. i still recommend test only but don't flame anyone trying to do test/eq or test/anavar etc.

    GOOD POST

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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddleMonkey
    I suggest Test only cycles because as a first cycle you'll still get great gains from it with proper diet and lifting. You'll also save a little money. I think its smart to start out this way because then on your second cycle you can mix in EQ or Deca and once again get good results. Where as you start out mixing too much stuff in the beginning you'll just need to continue to use higher amounts of gear in order to get similar results.

    I also see nothing wrong with a deca only cycle. I've know plenty who have done deca only cycles and loved it, didn't have any problems. I think the chances of 'deca dick' are slim personally.
    the one thing i will ALWAYS disagree with is doing a cycle w/o test...read this thread...there are more serious problems then the ability to get your dick hard for some bimbo blonde on saturday night!

    http://67.18.108.244/showthread.php?t=103657

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    I think this is to each of their opinions and also on what the user is really trying to gain out of the first cycle... if the user would like to see how he/she reacts to just test alone, then i'd say do it. but for me started out weighing 230-235 and 5'11" i'd rather do the test and deca to see how much i can gain from it... also the stack pursuaded me because of the chemical quality which allows my joints to not hurt so bad during a workout... so it's really up to each individuals to do their research... i've been telling people in their posts to decide on their own... i can make suggestions and set examples for different scenarios, but ultimately it's up to them to do their homework and make their decisions...

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    I don't encourage the use of a lot of different compounds - for the most part it isn't necessary. These hormones are very powerful and play vital roles in the human body. And since testosterone needs to be included in every cycle (TestisBest.com) - starting with testosterone only is the best route, IMO.

    This allows the person to get accustomed to what the compound does to them personally - without confusing the effects with another compound. Then when they want to increase the anabolic effects - they should do so with a heavier anabolic like Deca ... the second time around. And then see how that goes - they can compare and reflect. Mmaximus brought up receptor mapping about a year ago here - I think this is important... see what gets you results without going overboard... find your risk:benefit ratio...

    If someone starts stacking several androgens off the bat - I feel they lose sight of what does what to their body and are more likely to engage in riskier cycles later (end up using way too many drugs)... AAS should be a supplement to a well-rounded routine - not a crutch...

  11. #11
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    for mudman- deca is not harsh imo, that was my first cycle, as dumb as it was, but is great with no sides, no anti e's and no pct. yes i just slapped myself but i know better now. we have to remember that everyBODY is different, one might respond well to eq and react bad to deca and vise versa even though eq as you stated would be fine to stack for a first cycle. which leads me to my response for DB - i will have to disagree and say that for a first cycle it should be test only, if you run eq and test together with some adverse effects, how do you tell which copmound is causing the problems. now this person would think they dont react well to test or eq, but the reverse of this argument could be- who would be alergic to test since every male has it so it must be the EQ, turning around again, some people might not repsond to high doses or synthetic test at that, so once again we are back at the begining as to which compound is causing the problems.

    i say be safe, 1 compound for the first time, and gradually increase doses or add new compounds.

    thank you

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    "EQ was hard on my hair", "tren gave my insomnia", "deca shut me down hard", "winny really hardened me up".....
    I know exactly what you mean, but all of the above statements cannot be made without having some point of reference.....sides in particular. You can't accurately gauge what works for you in terms of sides/gains without having something to which you can compare it. You started losing hair on your tren/test/EQ stack....which was the culprit?

    I too believe that there aren't any more "dangers" to using a "stack" for your first cycle than using a single compound, but you're in a much better postion to design subsequent cycles after having gradually added compounds one at a time. "tren is too harsh for a first cycle"..... It has the same sides for some seasoned veteran going into his 2nd cycle as for some rookie doing his first cycle, but tren alone is not a cycle, so test must be included in that first cycle. Now, the sides you get from your test/tren cyle are attributed to which compound? Thankfully, due to the experiences of many users that have already used various compounds, you can narrow down from which compounds the sides originated, but there is still a lot of individual variation.


    The one thing that I won't balk on is the use of anti e's, that's not overly cautious....it's just rational thinking. I despise the old-school mentality of keeping nolva "on hand just in case", no offense to those who subscribe to this mantra. With anti e's being so cheap and readily available these days, I'll give anyone the rest of their natural lives to give me a good reason why one shouldn't use Adex + nolva in any cycle. I know this isn't what DB was referring to, but I'll take every opportunity to drag my weather-beaten soap box out and climb upon it to preach the praises of proper use of anti e's during a cycle.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by hercules88
    for mudman- deca is not harsh imo, that was my first cycle, as dumb as it was, but is great with no sides, no anti e's and no pct. yes i just slapped myself but i know better now. we have to remember that everyBODY is different, one might respond well to eq and react bad to deca and vise versa even though eq as you stated would be fine to stack for a first cycle. which leads me to my response for DB - i will have to disagree and say that for a first cycle it should be test only, if you run eq and test together with some adverse effects, how do you tell which copmound is causing the problems. now this person would think they dont react well to test or eq, but the reverse of this argument could be- who would be alergic to test since every male has it so it must be the EQ, turning around again, some people might not repsond to high doses or synthetic test at that, so once again we are back at the begining as to which compound is causing the problems.

    i say be safe, 1 compound for the first time, and gradually increase doses or add new compounds.

    thank you
    I didn't say that deca was harsh I said that it will shut you down hard........ recovery is hard enough when suppressed with a test only cycle..... and for a first cycle you want to be able to recover quickly without any problems........ PCT is hard enough....... and like you sad everyBODY is different and you may never see bad sides from deca but that's you and the same will hold true for eq......... but EQ is VERY mild and so are the other AS I listed well except for d-bol

    I didn't do a test only cycle my first time but I did research the side effects of both compounds I was running so when they did show up I knew what was going on and how to treat them............
    Last edited by TheMudMan; 06-02-2004 at 03:32 PM.

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    [QUOTE=einstein1905]"EQ was hard on my hair", "tren gave my insomnia", "deca shut me down hard", "winny really hardened me up".....
    I know exactly what you mean, but all of the above statements cannot be made without having some point of reference.....sides in particular. You can't accurately gauge what works for you in terms of sides/gains without having something to which you can compare it. You started losing hair on your tren/test/EQ stack....which was the culprit?

    QUOTE]


    exactly what i was talking about. there is no way to find the culprit with a first time stack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by einstein1905
    "EQ was hard on my hair", "tren gave my insomnia", "deca shut me down hard", "winny really hardened me up".....
    I know exactly what you mean, but all of the above statements cannot be made without having some point of reference.....sides in particular. You can't accurately gauge what works for you in terms of sides/gains without having something to which you can compare it. You started losing hair on your tren/test/EQ stack....which was the culprit?

    I too believe that there aren't any more "dangers" to using a "stack" for your first cycle than using a single compound, but you're in a much better postion to design subsequent cycles after having gradually added compounds one at a time. "tren is too harsh for a first cycle"..... It has the same sides for some seasoned veteran going into his 2nd cycle as for some rookie doing his first cycle, but tren alone is not a cycle, so test must be included in that first cycle. Now, the sides you get from your test/tren cyle are attributed to which compound? Thankfully, due to the experiences of many users that have already used various compounds, you can narrow down from which compounds the sides originated, but there is still a lot of individual variation.


    The one thing that I won't balk on is the use of anti e's, that's not overly cautious....it's just rational thinking. I despise the old-school mentality of keeping nolva "on hand just in case", no offense to those who subscribe to this mantra. With anti e's being so cheap and readily available these days, I'll give anyone the rest of their natural lives to give me a good reason why one shouldn't use Adex + nolva in any cycle. I know this isn't what DB was referring to, but I'll take every opportunity to drag my weather-beaten soap box out and climb upon it to preach the praises of proper use of anti e's during a cycle.
    This is a very controversal thread, in that many people have different opinions. But we all seem to agree that some steroids are off limits for a first cycle. I also have to agree with einstein 100% about the use of Anti's during a cycle.
    Again good post db...

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    Da Bull - Are you proposing the Test only issue as an example? The reason I ask is that I have noticed that there are certain issues that the board as a whole have decided that there are "right" answers to and if someone goes outside those parameters the results border on flaming. Some forums are worse than others, and it's not always mods or vets, most often it's members who seem to be repeating something they have read. Just my observation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ616
    This is a very controversal thread, in that many people have different opinions. But we all seem to agree that some steroids are off limits for a first cycle. I also have to agree with einstein 100% about the use of Anti's during a cycle.
    Again good post db...
    I posted this thread for reasons of discussion,and in hopes some newer members can see both sides of the fence,and make a wise decision before starting a cycle.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior
    I don't encourage the use of a lot of different compounds - for the most part it isn't necessary. These hormones are very powerful and play vital roles in the human body. And since testosterone needs to be included in every cycle (TestisBest.com) - starting with testosterone only is the best route, IMO.

    This allows the person to get accustomed to what the compound does to them personally - without confusing the effects with another compound. Then when they want to increase the anabolic effects - they should do so with a heavier anabolic like Deca ... the second time around. And then see how that goes - they can compare and reflect. Mmaximus brought up receptor mapping about a year ago here - I think this is important... see what gets you results without going overboard... find your risk:benefit ratio...

    If someone starts stacking several androgens off the bat - I feel they lose sight of what does what to their body and are more likely to engage in riskier cycles later (end up using way too many drugs)... AAS should be a supplement to a well-rounded routine - not a crutch...
    Thank you for saving me the trouble of typing nearly the same thing.....

    I agree 100%.

    Less is more, and I think if a person adopts that mentallity...they will be better off in the long run.

    If you do dbol /test/deca for your 1st cycle....whats your 4th one gonna look like?

    Good thread though...


    D

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    I agree with DaBull in some sense, there are several cycles that a beginner or novice can do. But I still like the test only cycle better for several different reasons. There are to many people posting great results with test only cycles for it not to be considered the #1 cycle IMO. (1) less sides, (2) bros are posting gains of 15-20 lbs and keeping 12-15lbs with test cycles only and sure with other compounds involved you could gain more during cycle but your most likely going to keep the same 12-15 lbs. With all things considered I think most guys are not juicing to become the Arnold or Ronnie for that matter. Most of us what to get the clean, cut, fit look. But for my self I have not gained a single lb. during my cycle I fact I'm losing weight which is exactly what I wanted. I am starting to get more vascular, definition and my strength gain are through the roof IMO. So this is why I suggest Test cycle only for beginers including myself since I am a beginer too, and it is doing just what i hoped it would do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elicotton
    Da Bull - Are you proposing the Test only issue as an example? The reason I ask is that I have noticed that there are certain issues that the board as a whole have decided that there are "right" answers to and if someone goes outside those parameters the results border on flaming. Some forums are worse than others, and it's not always mods or vets, most often it's members who seem to be repeating something they have read. Just my observation.
    I'd venture to say that a lot of the advice you'll get on this board and most others is 2nd hand advice. There's good and bad to this. the bad, it has the potential for paraphrasing and distorted message. The good, the general message is usually preserved. Even if someone hasn't used tren , they can still pass on to a newbie that tren has good potential to cause insomnia in many people. However, it's when people try to absorb info a little over their heads and then pass it on in a less than accurate form to a newbie....that's where 2nd hand advice becomes a problem.

    I so often hear that a deca only cycle is so awful because of "deca dick". That's the least of my concern with a deca only cycle, but that's an issue for another thread.

    If you haven't experienced it or don't have a complete grasp of the info, don't advise someone on it....don't take that the wrong way either. I'm not discouraging people from helping eachother, but your "help", if not accurate, isn't helpful, if you know what I mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Bull
    I posted this thread for reasons of discussion,and in hopes some newer members can see both sides of the fence,and make a wise decision before starting a cycle.
    Always tryin to help these kids out...Dabull very well said, bravo bravo LOL

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    well i gues i both agree and disagree

    i believe that a test only cycle first and then adding 1 compound every cycle after that is the best way to judge how individual componds effest you. However if you are going to add anything to a fist I would go with d-bol, eq, or booth. I would avoid
    deca becuse if you do get gyno you will not know what to treat it with......jmo

  23. #23
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    I don't see anything wrong with test only cycles for a first. However I don't see anything wrong with stacking 2 compounds for a first cycle either.
    Test/eq/ or test/deca or test/dbol etc is fine for a first timer IMO.

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    My previous and first cycle was a short test/winny cycle. I reacted super well. What do I take from this reaction. Keep using test, try something else, I'm a newbie help me out. I am assuming my gains are attributable to the test and not the winny.

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    the conservetivness is only as of late might i add....When I signed up the recomend first cycle was:

    wk1-4 dbol @ 35mg ed
    wk1-13 test e @ 500mg ew
    wk1-12 eq @ 400mg ew

    and of anti e's and pct

  26. #26
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    Excellent topic for debate Bull.

    IMO, if you achieved your goals and were happy with lack (hopefully)or level of side effects, then you chose a cycle which was right for you. My beef with the advice that is oft given is because frequently the person asknig what drugs to cycle makes no mention any specific goals and people giving advice don't ask either. Not everyone wants to be a bodybuilder or a mass monster.

    Consider three individuals:
    GUY1: hopeful NCAA O-lineman, weighs 260-270 needs to get up to ~300. Fat not a big concern so long as it is not the majority of gain.

    GUY2: Amatuer boxer training for an upcoming fight, needs to improve endurance and any strength gain would be an added bonus. CANNOT jump weight classes. If he exceeds a 10 lb weight gain there is no bout. Must come in under a certain weight on weigh in day.

    GUY3: Beach guy wants nice abs as well as any increase in lean muscle he can get. Any fat or water gain is not acceptable to this person, be it temporary or permanent.

    There is more than one way each of these people could achieve their goals and each would be due to different training protocols, dietary plans, and chosen AS. Shades of grey people, training is more an art than a science (assuming AS is a sub category under training).

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    Quote Originally Posted by damiongage
    the conservetivness is only as of late might i add....When I signed up the recomend first cycle was:

    wk1-4 dbol @ 35mg ed
    wk1-13 test e @ 500mg ew
    wk1-12 eq @ 400mg ew

    and of anti e's and pct
    Nooo... YOU suggested that - the people here suggested along the lines of what is being discussed here... here is your thread: 1st cycle questions wha-wha-whaaaaaaa

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    im only recommending low doseage test cycles solely for the fact that i just came off one, and it probably would of turned the same way if i woulda knocked the doseage a little higher, or added another compound like dbol or so. why not share the information ive experienced with other newbies who are going the same thing i WAS going through?

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    yah, I'd agree with you DB. The problem w/ a test only cycle if its a slow ester is the early weeks could be disappointing to a first timer. I used dbol and that dbol quick gain keeps u tided over untill the test kicks. Plus doing prop early would literally be a pain for a 1st timer I think.

  30. #30
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    Thanks for everyones input in this thread.Some very solid posts by solid bros.This is why AR is the #1 anabolic board on the net.Hopefully some newer members will read this and learn from this thread.If I had to be the devils advocate to some degree,to lure out our top bros into this discussion,then so be it.

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    From my experience and reading I would say test only is best for your first time, but with proper research compounds like Winnie, EQ, Anavar and such can be added in. Two at most though for a first cycle. The people who go for Anabol/D-bol kickstart to their Test/Deca /Tren cycle are the ones that scare me. <-First time using that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior
    Nooo... YOU suggested that - the people here suggested along the lines of what is being discussed here... here is your thread: 1st cycle questions wha-wha-whaaaaaaa
    I said when i first signed up...not when I posted that cycle(note the 5 mo. difference)....the 5 mo I spent researching first cycles to come up with that cycle.......If I could figure out how to do a search on first cycle post that far back I am sure I could post a plethera of them with a simular cycle and the responses were "good reseach", "looks good to me", and so on


    but it is good to know you are on your toes

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    I try

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    here is a dbol test deca one from that time\

    Help Im Very Virgin!

  35. #35
    damiongage's Avatar
    damiongage is offline Anabolic Member
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    and a test, eq, dbol one...note

    My first cycle. Critique please.

  36. #36
    Da Bull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damiongage
    here is a dbol test deca one from that time\

    Help Im Very Virgin!
    I'm not saying to do that particular cycle is right,but as all can see,the board is much more conservative in the last few months.And do note who posted in that thread.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Bull
    I'm not saying to do that particular cycle is right,but as all can see,the board is much more conservative in the last few months.And do note who posted in that thread.
    looks like mainly vets and mods to me....

  38. #38
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    i think all this would depend on how many future cycles the person was going to also. what i mean is wouldn't it be better to do deca /test/dbol cycle and gain 30lbs for the first time around as opposed of doing 1st cycle test only and gaining 15lbs,then doing a second cycle with 2 compounds and gaining 15 more.i think that it would make sense that there is more long term damage to your body with the long term use of steroids . in other words wouldn't 2 strong cycles be better health wise then ,4,or5?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by flabbywussy
    i think all this would depend on how many future cycles the person was going to also. what i mean is wouldn't it be better to do deca /test/dbol cycle and gain 30lbs for the first time around as opposed of doing 1st cycle test only and gaining 15lbs,then doing a second cycle with 2 compounds and gaining 15 more.i think that it would make sense that there is more long term damage to your body with the long term use of steroids . in other words wouldn't 2 strong cycles be better health wise then ,4,or5?
    That's a good point,but cycles are like potato chips...you just can't have one!

  40. #40
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    test, dbol or test EQ are fine for a first cycle..and so is just test..its really up to the person and there goals..more isnt always better...but does yeild more gains..and more sides..

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