B-12 Advice

[Tryin2getHUGE]

Hey guys. I am considering adding B-12 to my cycle but I am not sure where to place it and how much to do. I have 1000mcg tabs. I have been researching it, but cannot find anything about the dosage in conjunction with what I am running, or for how long. Thanks bro's. Here is my cycle:

1 - 11 SuperTest-250 (injections of 1cc each 2x per week)
1 - 10 Deca QV300 (injections 0f 1cc each 2x per week)
9 - 14 Winny 50mg ED
1 - 14 Nolva 20mg ED
1 - 14 Vitamin B6 200mg ED

PCT start 1 day after last Winny injection/dose
Day 1 300mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva / 200mg B6
Day 2 - 30 100mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva / 200mg B6
Day 31 - 37 20mg Nolva / 200mg B6

[SV-1]

What happend to:

1 - 11 SUS 500mg/wk (injections of 0.25cc EOD)
1 - 10 Deca 300mg/wk (2 injections per week at 0.5cc each injection)
1 - 14 Nolva 20mg ED
1 - 14 Vitamin B6 200mg ED

PCT
Day 1 300mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva / 200mg B6
Day 2 - 30 100mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva / 200mg B6
Day 31 - 37 20mg Nolva / 200mg B6

http://forums.anabolicreview.com/sho...d.php?t=105934

[Tryin2getHUGE]

Oh shoot, I posted the wrong piece.... Woops. That is what I meant to post. I have been tweaking it soooooooooo much lately I glanced at the wrong cycle. But that is what I am running

[Tryin2getHUGE]

Oh, real quick. I have read that the more injections I do the more I am losing of the substance. For instance if I go EOD on the test instead of 2x a week then I will be losing more test in transition than if I did the 2x a week. Whats your take on that? It was something that I read lastnight while researching and I was curious.

But then again, I also read that to be the MOST EFFECTIVE, shoot ED. Again, your advice kind sir

[SV-1]

Oh, real quick. I have read that the more injections I do the more I am losing of the substance. For instance if I go EOD on the test instead of 2x a week then I will be losing more test in transition than if I did the 2x a week. Whats your take on that? It was something that I read lastnight while researching and I was curious.

But then again, I also read that to be the MOST EFFECTIVE, shoot ED. Again, your advice kind sir

1. I'd use 500mcg of B12 ED throughout your cycle. Actually you can use it off cycle too.

2. Every time you inject you lose some juice in the needle and well above the plunger. However you can counter that by keeping a little air in the syringe to push out that last bit of juice. And don't worry about it causing a problem, injecting a small amount of air with IM injections is an approved technique.


Originally posted by 956Vette on MuscleSci:


Introduction

Intramuscular (IM) injections, as the name implies, administer drugs directly into the muscle beneath the subcutaneous tissue. This route allows quicker absorption than subcutaneous injections.

In the UK the Z-track method is widely used, advocated by Beyea and Nicoll (1996) as it controls leakage into the surrounding tissues and is generally more comfortable for the patient.

However, a comparative study of depot intramuscular injection techniques has revealed that the air-bubble method widely used in Canada and USA is significantly more effective at controlling seepage than the Z-track (Quartermaine, 1995).


A further study compiled at the Bracton Centre, Specialist Mental Health Service, could provide no advantages to choosing either the air-bubble method or the Z-track method over each other.

Complications of IM injections

Complications can occur at the site of the injection following IM drug administration, such as seepage of the injection solution and/or bleeding from the injection site onto the skin, pain, irritation and even skin lesions. Such complications are widely recognised and have been investigated (Hay 1995, Murphy 1991). One cause of complications noted in these investigations is some degree of fault in the IM injection administration technique itself.

Injection sites

Taylor et al (1993) recommend the rotation of sites if a series of injections is to be administered, in order to reduce the risk of local reaction.

IM injections should be given into the upper outer quadrant of either the thigh or buttock, into the gluteal muscles.

Correctly identify the site

Place patient on their side with their top leg flexed to relax the muscle.
Mark out an imaginary cross thus dividing the area into four quarters.
By injecting into the upper outer quadrant of the buttock, the sciatic nerve will be missed.
Z-track technique

Place the ulnar side of your non-dominant hand on the chosen injection site and stretch the skin taut.
Hold the needle at 90 degrees to the skin.
Plunge the needle in quickly, penetrating the muscle and leaving about a third of the needle exposed.
Pull back on the plunger to observe for blood aspiration. If blood is aspirated the procedure should be discontinued.
If no blood is aspirated, slowly and continuously inject the drug.
After a couple of seconds withdraw the needle at the same angle at which it went in.
Release the skin. This has the effect of breaking the needle track as the skin and subcutaneous layers move back over the muscle. The drug is therefore locked within the muscle. (Belanger, 1985)
Air bubble technique

The procedure for the air bubble technique differs from the Z-track in only one way. When drawing up the medication, a small bubble of air is also drawn up. This is injected into the muscle with the drug, thus forming an air lock in the muscle depot preventing the medication from seeping out along the needle track into other subcutaneous tissue or onto the skin. (Pritchard and Mallett 1992, Taylor et al 1993)

Keen, (1986) suggests that the Z-track technique produces more pain at the injection site and this is further supported by MacGabhann (1996).

Does experience improve IM technique?

MacGabhann goes on to suggest that "The period of training for staff during the study highlighted disparate knowledge and practice of injection techniques. There was no working policy or procedure on administering injections to which staff could refer". This implies a potential discrepancy between ongoing training and improving techniques.

Katsma and Smith (1997) suggest that the potential for pain experience in IM injections is due to the kinematics of injections, ie. the movement of the needle through muscle and tissue. He goes on to say "Minimizing of this effect is accomplished by controlling the needle trajectory during penetration along a linear path from point of contact to end point."

The study invloved 35 RGNs and 21 3rd year student nurses. Student nurse characteristics differed from experienced nurses primarily in syringe angular positioning. They tended to be closer to the "textbook" style (which they had been recently taught) with angle at contact closer to vertical. However, kinematic characteristics describing the non-linear characteristics during needle penetration were not significantly different from those of experienced nurses.


While it is fair to assume that the more experience a nurse has the more likely she will be to optimize a technique for IM administration, this study suggests the wide variability of the nurse kinematic characteristics argues against this optimization occurrence.

Conclusion

There are arguments for and against both the Z-track method and the air bubble method of IM injection techniques and currently in the UK the most commonly used is different variants of the Z-track method (MacGabhann, 1996). This said, nurses should not become complacent in their abilities to administer injections. As the study by Katsma and Smith showed, some experienced nurses have a much poorer technique than those less experienced than them. To understand the rationale, supported by effective research, behind good injection technique can only serve as a benefit to the profession as a whole, our patients and the nurses of the future.



References

Belanger MC (1985) Long acting neuroleptics: technique for intramuscular injection. Canadian Nurse. 81, 8, 41-44.

Beyea, S., Nicoll, L.M. (1996) Back to basics. Administering Intramuscular Injections the right way. American Journal of Nursing 96:1, 34-35

Hay J (1995) Complications at site of injection of depot neuroleptics. British Medical Journal. 311, 421.

Katsma, D., Smith, G. Intramuscular injection mechanics: Does experience improve technique?Nursing Research, 46, 288-292, 1997.


Mac Gabhann L (1996) A comparison of two depot injection techniques. Nursing Standard. 12, 37, 39-41

Murphy JI (1991) Reducing the pain of intramuscular (IM) injections. Clinical Care. July/August, 35.

Quartermaine S (1995) A comparative study of depot injection techniques. Nursing Times. 91, 30, 36-39.

Pritchard AP, Mallett J (1992) The Royal Marsden Hospital Manual of Clinical Nursing Procedures. Third edition. London, Blackwell Scientific.


Taylor C, Lillis C, Le Mone P (1993) Fundamentals of Nursing: The Art and Science of Nursing Care. Second edition. Philadelphia PA, JB Lippincott.

[Tryin2getHUGE]

Very Very educational post bro. Once again thanks. So then as long as I have some air in the syringe then I am good to go with more injections. But, will MORE inlections, say ED or EOD be more likely to give me better gains?

[SV-1]

Very Very educational post bro. Once again thanks. So then as long as I have some air in the syringe then I am good to go with more injections. But, will MORE inlections, say ED or EOD be more likely to give me better gains?

The air needs to be the last thing that goes through the syringe in order to clear out that last bit of juice.

More frequent injections = more stable blood levels = better gains and less sides.

[Tryin2getHUGE]

ok sweet... Thanks again

[bermich]

Ya know what. Im dumb cause all this time I never even considered keeping a small amount of air in my syringe. It seems so simple but I never thought about it. I always hate leaving that small amount in the needle.

[SV-1]

Ya know what. Im dumb cause all this time I never even considered keeping a small amount of air in my syringe. It seems so simple but I never thought about it. I always hate leaving that small amount in the needle.

I know the feeling. My first cycle I saved all the leftovers from the syringes to see how much it was. It ended up being like a 10% waste, pissed me off big time.

[flabbywussy]

I know the feeling. My first cycle I saved all the leftovers from the syringes to see how much it was. It ended up being like a 10% waste, pissed me off big time.

instead of air why not just get some b 12 injectable in the syringe first,then draw out the test? that way the oily test is at the front and the b12 is close to the plunger.also b12 is absorbed more when it is injected,so kill 2 birds whith one stone!

[SV-1]

instead of air why not just get some b 12 injectable in the syringe first,then draw out the test? that way the oily test is at the front and the b12 is close to the plunger.also b12 is absorbed more when it is injected,so kill 2 birds whith one stone!

1. He already has b12 tabs.
2. Not everyone uses injectable B12.
3. When you add b12 you are injecting more volume, and that can lead to more pain/discomfort.
4. Air is free and available to everyone.
5. Injectable B12 is water based. Oil floats on top of water so to have the B12 at the plunger end the injection must be done upside down.
6. Because injectable B12 is water based it can actually help some esters to crystallize, and that hurts.
7. B12 wont do anything to help keep the juice from leaking out of the injection site, air will.

If you want more reasons I can probably come up with some.

[Tryin2getHUGE]

LMAO..... Great response SV-1

[Antwan]

I was scared I would get flamed for telling people I left a small amount of air in the syringe to make sure all the juice got out...hahaha.

[Tryin2getHUGE]

No bro.... it is just a different technique...... You just have to be careful thats all

[flabbywussy]

LMAO..... Great response SV-1

great response i agree,but not real thought out.

[flabbywussy]

1. He already has b12 tabs.
2. Not everyone uses injectable B12.
3. When you add b12 you are injecting more volume, and that can lead to more pain/discomfort.
4. Air is free and available to everyone.
5. Injectable B12 is water based. Oil floats on top of water so to have the B12 at the plunger end the injection must be done upside down.
6. Because injectable B12 is water based it can actually help some esters to crystallize, and that hurts.
7. B12 wont do anything to help keep the juice from leaking out of the injection site, air will.

If you want more reasons I can probably come up with some.

1. b-12 injectable is cheap
2.everyone should use it.
3.there is no pain when injecting b12(it takes the pain away from test injects as a matter of fact)
4.thank you captain obvious!
5.there is not enough room or air in the syringe (too much air pressure)for the b12 to float up if you withdraw the b12 first(besides doesn't everyone draw upside down?)
6.not in that short amount of time.
7.pull out the needle quick,apply pressure,inject slowly,don't tense your muscles.(solves that problem!)besides b12 will leak out.
8.have you tried it even? didn't think so.
9."he already has b12 tabs" b12 tabs are cheap who cares not that big of a waste,and take them with it,or save it for off cycle.
10.jesus loves you!

[SV-1]

1. He already has b12 tabs.
2. Not everyone uses injectable B12.
3. When you add b12 you are injecting more volume, and that can lead to more pain/discomfort.
4. Air is free and available to everyone.
5. Injectable B12 is water based. Oil floats on top of water so to have the B12 at the plunger end the injection must be done upside down.
6. Because injectable B12 is water based it can actually help some esters to crystallize, and that hurts.
7. B12 wont do anything to help keep the juice from leaking out of the injection site, air will.

If you want more reasons I can probably come up with some.

1. b-12 injectable is cheap

And? So is crack, air is free.

2.everyone should use it.

No everyone should not. Most gear causes an increase in red blood cells, my RBC count has been very high during a cycle. B12 also causes increased RBC count, too high of a RBC count can lead to among other things, blood clots.

3.there is no pain when injecting b12(it takes the pain away from test injects as a matter of fact)

This statement shows just how little you know. Adding B12 to gear *can* decrease pain, but it can also increase pain, because B12 is water based. BA is much more water soluble then BB, and the B12 can very quickly suck all the BA out of the depot, causing it to crash if there's not enough remaining solvent (like BB) to keep the hormone in solution. Find me a thread in the lab that recommends making gear 50% oil and 50% water. You wont, because no one recommends that. And guess what, bacteriostatic water is 100 times cheaper then B12, so why don't you just cut all your shots with it.

4.thank you captain obvious!

It's my job to point out the obvious to the dim-witted.

5.there is not enough room or air in the syringe (too much air pressure)for the b12 to float up if you withdraw the b12 first(besides doesn't everyone draw upside down?)

This is just completely stupid, too much air pressure?!?! Draw up 1cc of water and 1cc of oil, then tip the syringe. Guess what numb nuts? They immediately start to trade places. OMG! There is no place I've ever injected upside down!

6.not in that short amount of time.

Did you know that most people warm the oil up after they draw it. That takes time and they blend together. The fact that you don't know to do this speaks volumes about your knowledge of gear.

7.pull out the needle quick,apply pressure,inject slowly,don't tense your muscles.(solves that problem!)besides b12 will leak out.

So you like to shoot your gear cold. That's great that you're a masochist, but I'm not. So I'll continue to warm my gear to body temp before I inject.

8.have you tried it even? didn't think so.

Yes. And they run together. That's fine if you have gear that wont crash in your muscle because of it, but I'll still use air (don't want to waste my gear/b12 mix).

9."he already has b12 tabs" b12 tabs are cheap who cares not that big of a waste,and take them with it,or save it for off cycle.

I've already shown why exchanging tabs for injectable B12 doesn't always solve the problem. I hate arguing with people who genuinely don't know what they're talking about.

10.jesus loves you!

I'm an atheist. Jesus died a long time ago, so he can't love anyone anymore.

[SV-1]

great response i agree,but not real thought out.

Mine were very thought out and logical, yours............. not so much.

[flabbywussy]

Mine were very thought out and logical, yours............. not so much.

here's some logic for ya...
normally i would argue with you,but i don't really give a rats @ss what you do with your body. i understand now why you are so upset and frustrated! either you're too poor to afford to waste the measly amount of gear,or you're getting butt raped on the price you pay for them.hey i hear you can mix gear with an enema why don't you try it out, oh,but don't forget to pull that stick out of your butt first spanky!
satan loves you!

[Da Bull]

Adding B12 to gear *can* decrease pain, but it can also increase pain, because B12 is water based. BA is much more water soluble then BB, and the B12 can very quickly suck all the BA out of the depot, causing it to crash if there's not enough remaining solvent (like BB) to keep the hormone in solution.

After I ask this question,you guys can go back to your regularly scheduled flame war.But you just mentioned something SV that i found quite interesting.As you know,I make all my gear also,and at times I've had inflamations in my muscles.After reading your comment this seems to be a possible reason why.Would you suggest upping the BB content in the gear to eliviate this problem?Also,some recipes call for no BB,but I always throw some in anyway,but I guess I should up the BB in those recipes also huh?

thx...DB

[SV-1]

After I ask this question,you guys can go back to your regularly scheduled flame war.

He started it.

But you just mentioned something SV that i found quite interesting.As you know,I make all my gear also,and at times I've had inflamations in my muscles.After reading your comment this seems to be a possible reason why.Would you suggest upping the BB content in the gear to eliviate this problem?Also,some recipes call for no BB,but I always throw some in anyway,but I guess I should up the BB in those recipes also huh?

I'm beginning to think that in some cases people use *way* more BA then they need. For example, most cyp/enth recipes call for either 5% BA or 3% BA and 7% BB. The general rule I always hear is that 20% solvent is the upper limit of what people can tolerate pain wise. Well If you've ever used Upjohn and Pharma cyp, then you know how untrue that statement is. Their cyp is the gold standard of test, and (for me) completely painless (mine wasn't fake, I got it with a scrip from a hospital pharmacy). And their 200mg/ml cyp (what I used) has 21% solvent!!!!

Test cyp
Cottonseed oil
1% BA (it says right on the vial "added as preservative")
20% BB

That's it. Four ingredients and 21% solvent. I've already posted a study that shows 1% BA is all that's needed to kill the bugs.
http://forums.anabolicreview.com/showthread.php?t=93950


I think that next cycle I'm going to play around with lower BA content and higher BB content.


Benzyl Benzoate is the next common solvent on the list. It is not nearly as strong and much heavier than the benzyl alcohol so benzyl benzoate is used primarily for its latent affects in the depot. Namely it helps keep the hormone in solution at the injection site after the more water-soluble benzyl alcohol has leached from the depot. benzyl benzoate is constructed of two benzene rings bridged by a carbonyl group, this making the solvent extremely hydrophobic. It is also painless at low levels and nearly painless at 15-20% for most people.
Technical info: CAS# 120-51-4, density is 1.11, Molecular Weight is 212.25 Boiling point is 614f, Water solubility is less then 1g in 100ml.

[SV-1]

here's some logic for ya...
normally i would argue with you,but i don't really give a rats @ss what you do with your body. i understand now why you are so upset and frustrated! either you're too poor to afford to waste the measly amount of gear,or you're getting butt raped on the price you pay for them.hey i hear you can mix gear with an enema why don't you try it out, oh,but don't forget to pull that stick out of your butt first spanky!
satan loves you!

The reason you don't want to argue with me is because I own you. Plain and simple.

1. I'm not upset or frustrated. I just get annoyed arguing with people like you who have very little understanding of what they're talking about.

2. I think I'll stick with the air bubble method. Yes it's only a very accepted and widely practiced method. No it's not flabbywussy's, fu*k the professionals, I know best, dumbA$$ method........ But hey, I'm a maverick.

3. I have never in my life wished so much that posting powder prices wasn't against the rules.

Little boy, I make all my own gear. That means that for what you pay for a 10ml bottle of test or deca , I pay for an entire cycle.

4. As I said in a previous post, I'm an atheist. So I don't believe in satan either.

[Tryin2getHUGE]

King me

[flabbywussy]

The reason you don't want to argue with me is because I own you. Plain and simple.

1. I'm not upset or frustrated. I just get annoyed arguing with people like you who have very little understanding of what they're talking about.

2. I think I'll stick with the air bubble method. Yes it's only a very accepted and widely practiced method. No it's not flabbywussy's, fu*k the professionals, I know best, dumbA$$ method........ But hey, I'm a maverick.

3. I have never in my life wished so much that posting powder prices wasn't against the rules.

Little boy, I make all my own gear. That means that for what you pay for a 10ml bottle of test or deca , I pay for an entire cycle.

4. As I said in a previous post, I'm an atheist. So I don't believe in satan either.

sorry dr. sv, but your still a cheap @ass if your scared of losing a little test,and i'm sorry but injecting air in my muscle(orvein by accident) doesn't sound too safe to me. don't you think if it was safe that there would be no reason for flicking the bubbles out of the syringe? duh! and when you go get a shot from the doctor .....sorry,but i don't remember them ever using your great method!good for you about making your own gear,just don't sell any of that f@cked up shiat to me. have fun with an abcess.hey, i'm kind of hungry,now why don't you go into the kitchen and fix me a blow-me sandwich? thanks! see you in h@ll!

[SV-1]

sorry dr. sv, but your still a cheap @ass if your scared of losing a little test,and i'm sorry but injecting air in my muscle(orvein by accident) doesn't sound too safe to me. don't you think if it was safe that there would be no reason for flicking the bubbles out of the syringe? duh! and when you go get a shot from the doctor .....sorry,but i don't remember them ever using your great method!good for you about making your own gear,just don't sell any of that f@cked up shiat to me. have fun with an abcess.hey, i'm kind of hungry,now why don't you go into the kitchen and fix me a blow-me sandwich? thanks! see you in h@ll!

The reason it doesn't sound too safe to you is because you don't know what you are talking about. Simple as that. I suggest that as a newbie you spend some time in the educational threads, cuz you really need some education. Why don't you start here.

It's uneducated (and in this case I will go as far as to say unintelligent) people like you that give people who juice a bad name.

[SV-1]

i'm sorry but injecting air in my muscle(orvein by accident) doesn't sound too safe to me.

I guess all these people are wrong and you're right.


Variation for Air Lock Injection Technique
1. Withdraw desired volume of medication into syringe.
2. Draw in an additional 0.2 mL of air.
3. Check medication dose in syringe; expel excess amount of medication from syringe.
4. Redraw in 0.2 mL of air, and recheck dose accuracy.
5. Insert the needle entering the client at a 90-degree angle to the client’s skin surface and the floor. Position the client so the proper anatomic landmarks can be located for the chosen site and still allow the needle to enter the client at a 90-degree angle to the floor; for example, when using either the ventrogluteal or deltoid sites, the client must be side-lying.
http://connection.lww.com/products/r...%5CPC27-08.doc

************************************************** **************************************************

* How to do it: draw up medication, change needle, draw back 0.2 of air (gives you an air lock), find your site, pull skin laterally 1-1 ½ inches (displaces skin to the side & creates a broken line, pulls subQ over), give injection, push medication in slowly, push in air, remove needle, let skin replace itself. DO NOT MASSAGE.
http://www.angelfire.com/ns/southeas...njections3.htm

************************************************** **************************************************

How To Administer an Intramuscular Injection

Some sources recommend adding 0.2 cc of air to the syringe to push medication out of the needle and prevent leakage back into the subQ tissues
http://nursing.about.com/cs/pharmaco...injections.htm

************************************************** **************************************************

While on the subject of intramuscular injections, a comparative study of depot intramuscular injection techniques has revealed that the air-bubble method widely used in Canada and USA is significantly more effective at controlling seepage than the Z-track which is standard practice in the UK.
http://www.nurseminerva.co.uk/giving.htm

************************************************** **************************************************

Intramuscular Injections:

8. Use AIR LOCK - avoids tracking drug into subq.

http://www2.austincc.edu/adnlev1/rns...parenteral.htm

************************************************** **************************************************

Clinical Procedures-Intramuscular Injections

When drawing up the medication, a small bubble of air is also drawn up. This is injected into the muscle with the drug, thus forming an air lock in the muscle depot preventing the medication from seeping out along the needle track into other subcutaneous tissue or onto the skin.

http://www.nursesnetwork.co.uk/envo/print.php?sid=98

************************************************** **************************************************


And there are plenty more I can reference for you if you want, oh all knowing one.

[Tryin2getHUGE]

Once again SV-1, you continue to impress. And that is "Check Mate" my friend.

[flabbywussy]

Once again SV-1, you continue to impress. And that is "Check Mate" my friend.

man if you kiss @ss any harder you wouldn't be able to breath because your face would be in his anus!

[flabbywussy]

The reason it doesn't sound too safe to you is because you don't know what you are talking about. Simple as that. I suggest that as a newbie you spend some time in the educational threads, cuz you really need some education. Why don't you start here.

It's uneducated (and in this case I will go as far as to say unintelligent) people like you that give people who juice a bad name.

your a little cry baby ! man, what the f@ck is your problem? once again i said i don't give a flyin rats @ss what you do! get over it bro your annoying! i give juice a bad name ?,because i inject it with b12 instead of injecting it with air?! did you ride the little yellow bus to school?

[flabbywussy]

i'm not a post whore like you, so have fun with the rest of this thread sv!

[Tryin2getHUGE]

man if you kiss @ss any harder you wouldn't be able to breath because your face would be in his anus!

Hey bro...... don't be mad at me because you got your Asssssssss kicked and handed to you by SV-1. It was actually pretty comical the way EVERYTHING You said was basically proven wrong and made you look like an undeucated and uninformed ass. AnyWAY, I am pretty sure ALL would agree with SV-1 on this one so just cut your loses and move on.