06-20-2004, 08:42 PM #1
i need a good reading on why test is needed in all cycles
i know you need to run test in every cycle, my friend doesnt belive you need to. i need a good reading for him to read, cause i cant find any in the search. someone help me out
06-20-2004, 08:52 PM #2
Testosterone is responsible for:
Testosterone is the most important representative of the male sex hormones collectively called androgens. Using cholesterol as a base, the male gonads (testes) produce between 4 and 10 mg of testosterone per day. Testosterone itself is responsible for three major functions in animals.
1) The development of secondary male sex characteristics also called the androgenic functions of testosterone. Some examples of these characteristics are increased growth of body hair, beard growth, deep voice, increased production of sebaceous glands, development of the penis, aggressiveness, sexual behavior, libido, and the maturation of sperm.
2) Promotion of the protein biosynthesis that are responsible for the highly anabolic characteristics of testosterone. This is a pretty important function. It accelerates muscle buildup, increases the formation of red blood cells, speeds up regeneration, and speeds up recovery time after injuries or illness. It also stimulates the entire metabolism which results in the burning of bodyfat.
3) Inhibition of the gonad regulating cycle, including the hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis, which regulates the amount of testosterone produced in the organism. If the testosterone level in the blood is high, the testes will signal the hypothalymus to release less LHRH (leutenizing hormone releasing hormone). Thus the hypophysis releases less gonadotropin LH (leutenizing hormone) and FSH (folic stimulating hormone). Consequently, the Leydig's cells in the testes reduces the production of testosterone. In other words, if you have to much testosterone, your body will tell itself to reduce or even stop production of it until it is back down to its normal levels.
During puberty, testosterone levels are at their lifetime peak. They begin to decline around the age of 23. This is where testosterone therapy comes into play. Many men and women suffer from the lack of important hormones and replacement therapy is simply the most effective way to combat the signs of aging.
06-20-2004, 08:56 PM #3Originally Posted by itsallmental
06-20-2004, 09:02 PM #4
that IS saying why you need it in every cycle. that whole post was a basic explanation of what testosterone is responsible for. your pretty experienced bro, you should figure out by now that most cycles ran without test can effect the HPTA pretty harshly and shut you down hard, thus causing you to produce NO testosterone. and when you get shut down your missing every single thing in my last post.
06-20-2004, 09:04 PM #5Originally Posted by itsallmental
06-20-2004, 09:07 PM #6Originally Posted by jcstomper
06-20-2004, 09:08 PM #7Originally Posted by jcstomper
If that happenes - your gains are *drastically* compromised.
Thats what his post wass telling you
06-20-2004, 09:11 PM #8
In defense of testosterone
Apart from being the most effective steroid , it’s also the sanest choice with regards to health. It makes sense that by administering the exogenous variant of our prime androgen, we will not allow anything in the body that would normally occur to fall into disuse, nor allow anything that would normally not happen to occur. Because a lot of studies and conclusions are based on findings with testosterone, we can only safely make these assumptions about testosterone. That is why we not only use it, it will be the base for our cycle. And it should be for any health-conscious cycle.
Testosterone is the most effective steroid commercially available today. This observed in the real world, since even with the necessary bulk, testosterone increases lean body mass more than any other steroid we have access to. More than the stronger androgens, and more than the stronger estrogens. That is because testosterone has a very diverse mode of action. Testosterone is the most present androgen in the body. Its also the most important endogenous androgen in muscle tissue. But everywhere else in the body, that role is put aside for Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Now DHT is a reduced version of testosterone with a saturated A-ring (steroids are lipophillic, 19-carbon, 4-ring structures made from cholesterol). These other tissues are rich in an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase. When testosterone binds to this enzyme, its 4,5-double bond is broken and two hydrogen atoms (hence dihydro) attached to the spaces that are freed on the A-ring. DHT is a much more potent androgen, roughly three times the affinity of testosterone for the androgen receptor.
Many people regard DHT as the enemy, because among these androgen-specific tissues are the scalp (aggravating a genetic tendency to hair loss) and the skin (causing outbreaks of acne). But in fact DHT is more than that to us. Since it is the prime androgen in nerve tissue, it will be imperative to have ample DHT levels for optimal neuromuscular response. This is why many people taking the 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor finasteride (Proscar) find that their strength does not increase, or even decreases. Secondly we tend to forget that DHT is a potent anti-aromatase. The aromatase enzyme is the enzyme that converts testosterone to the estrogen estradiol (E2). As we will discuss next, E2 certainly has its benefits as well, but too high a concentration will result in excess adipose storage and more water retention (bloat). Certainly we don’t need this if it can be avoided. Since this is a long term plan, we are in no way planning to walk around like the “stay puffed marshmallow man”. By blocking the 5-alpha reductase we have a shift towards aromatization of testosterone, because there is more testosterone available (not converted to DHT) and there are more aromatase enzymes (not taken up by DHT). This could in turn lead to problems with feminization and gynocomastia (breast growth in men). So as you can see, DHT is quite important in this equation.
A more important issue is perhaps the prostate. Prostate cancer is a disease of modern society. And steroid use has been known to cause or aggravate Benign prostate hypertrophy, a growth stage of the prostate gland in middle-aged men. Because the prostate is androgen specific, DHT is often named as the culprit. But the latest research determines that estrogen is in fact the causative factor, although a level of androgenic action is required. Androgens have actually been proferred as a therapeutic means to treat BPH.
As we mentioned already, testosterone is a substrate for the aromatase enzyme and converts to E2. A female hormone. Here too demonisation has made E2 the enemy. And yet again we are overlooking several factors. First of all, bloat, fat gain and gyno occur only at very high concentrations of E2, something we should be able to avoid if we are sane with our doses. And if not, we have numerous anti-aromatase drugs at our disposal, of which I favour Mesterolone (Proviron ) as it is a DHT analogue, will increase free testosterone and does not block E2 entirely in low doses, so we still reap the benefits. So what are the benefits of E2 ? Well, estrogen enhances gluconeogenesis (use of glucose for tissue repair and energy storage) (2) , increases the release of human Growth Hormone (3) and can increase androgen receptor upregulation (E2 makes testosterone more effective as an androgen) (4).
Lastly we consider actions not mediated by either the androgen or the estrogen receptor. This could in large part explain why testosterone is still the greatest steroid available, despite there being more potent androgens and more estrogen mediated drugs. A combination of trenbolone , a much stronger androgen, and oxymetholone (which has direct estrogenic action, without requiring aromatisation) only yields roughly the same amount of mass as equipotent or even lesser doses of testosterone. Why ? Well this brings us back to the point I raised about using a base that is equal to the endogenous alternative. Because certain processes may not be activated by these bastard hormones. One study (5) showed that testosterone had more effect in ductal branching in prostate tissue than did DHT, which would indicate a non-AR mechanism, since DHT is more potent at the AR, especially in the prostate. Could it be the estrogen factor ? No, because the DHT prohormone 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol) had the same effect as testosterone, and 3-alpha does not aromatize. So there is another mechanism in play here, which certainly supports the thesis that there is more to testosterone than merely agonism of estrogen and androgen receptors. Another study demonstrated that testosterone may upgrade beta-adrenoreceptors in vivo, through a non-AR mediated mechanism (again testosterone outperformed DHT in this area), and since administration of estrogen receptor antagonists showed no significant changes, we can also state it was not ER-mediated. The relevance of this in regards to muscular hypertrophy may be a lot greater. This did in large part determine the diet I planned with this cycle and the use of beta-adrenergic agents. So testosterone has proven beneficial in three separate fashions, and easily allows a defense of its selection.
But safety played a factor in my decision as well. Many theories about the evils of steroids were debunked these past few years, and most of the studies that disproved this long-standing anti-steroid propaganda, used testosterone as a substrate. So the only safe conclusion as far as these studies go is that TESTOSTERONE, and not steroids in general, is safe and beneficial. That is not to say the others are not as safe, but there is no proof that gives us any certainty that they are. One of the main reasons against the use of steroids has been cardiovascular risk. Several studies have looked at this closely, and not only did they determine that testosterone did not pose a heart risk (6) , they also concluded that low testosterone levels induce cardio-vascular risk (7), whereas supraphysiological administration seemed to decrease the risk (8) (decreases in total cholesterol, HDL and LDL, LDL/HDL ratio and apoplipoprotein B, a marker for cardiovascular risk). In conclusion it is safe to state that testosterone is actually good for your ticker, and as normal levels of testosterone decrease with age, a good case is to be made for Hormonal Replacement therapy in the interest of cardiovascular health. Lastly testosterone was also shown to increase mental health (9), as it increased cognitive performances in older men. So testosterone cannot only promote more lean mass than any other steroid, it can also make you live longer by decreasing heart risk, and get better quality out of your remaining years by enhancing cognitive performance and fighting dementia.
Hence my case for using testosterone as a base of our safe cycle.
06-20-2004, 09:13 PM #9
Just tell him about the sex drive and all that good stuff.....that **** always gets me all in love with Test...
06-20-2004, 09:14 PM #10
ok im just gonna tell him to read this post, you guys just throw up the info he needs to see. cause im not sure if he doesnt understand or doesnt belive. it beats the hell out of me
06-20-2004, 09:26 PM #11
OOh yeah I forgot to write in there that I did not write this article and is just being posted. This is one article that I have saved on my computor. There are other functions of testosterone that isnt replicated with other hormones.
Also keep in mind that with any cycle you also need one of the following in there,Equipoise ,Deca ,Primobolan ,Anavar ,winstrol , maybe Anadrol cant remember. When you increase your testosterone you decrease collagen sysnthesis by 50%, so you need to take one of the drugs I have mentioned above to increase your collagen synthesis and cross linking integrity. This will make for stronger tendons. Stanzolol increases collagen synthesis but decreases cross linking integrity. Equipoise and Deca increase collagen synthesis by 300% and cross linking integrity with a modest dose!!! So those two would be first pick for a second drug depending on what your goals are. The other drugs mentioned I dont know the figures on.
06-20-2004, 09:45 PM #12Originally Posted by UrbanDawg
Wrong. Granted, anavar (and primo) both cause HPTA shutdown, but they are so mild that you can take them without test and be just fine. I have done it as have many many others. We've talked about this zillions of times lately too and have gone over all the science and firsthand experiences so I'm not even going to get into it...
06-20-2004, 10:10 PM #13Originally Posted by Matto20
06-20-2004, 10:46 PM #14Originally Posted by ECoastVIP
I've had better experiences with anavar alone rather than running it with test - less acne and shedding. I also had slightly more water retention during my cycle running it with test. For many people who are sensitive to androgens (and there are many out there) it is not worth it to have test along with the var (or primo). And everyone I've talked to who have run those compounds alone (myself included) achieve excellent results with **** near zero side-effects - and those can be easily controlled with good planning.
The people who say "a cycle isn't a cycle without test" need to get with the program. I agree with a lot of what they are saying but there are exceptions. Several exceptions.
06-20-2004, 10:55 PM #15
06-20-2004, 11:30 PM #16
This is the first Ive heard of people using anavar and primobolan by itself and having excellent results. Ive heard of people using small doses of primo for bridgin. Ill do a search and see what you guys are talking about. You are saying that you have had excellent results with two of the most expensive/ineffective drugs. Matto you might just have different goals than some of us!! I was talking to a guy that i havnt seen in a while and he was like d@mn your huge ( 272lb as of now) and told him what I have been taking. He told me that he was taking Halotestin and he loved it. Said he put on 6lbs so far!!! I started telling him if he wants to get big he needs to take Testosterone and such. He flat out told me that he didnt want to get big!!!!!!! It suprises the sh!t out of me when people say they dont want to get big but are taking steroids !! I dont understand the point of that. There isnt too many people that have trouble staying small and skinny!!! And if so the solutions are legal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by Anhydro78; 06-20-2004 at 11:36 PM.
06-20-2004, 11:34 PM #17
First off, the whole concept of bridging itself is ridiculous.
Secondly, there are MANY people who run anavar and primo by itself. When I used to post on the EF board there were probably a dozen guys posting on that board running var alone at any given time. All having excellent results.
I'll agree that anavar and primo are expensive, but to call them ineffective is just downright stupid.
06-20-2004, 11:42 PM #18
I say use test in every cycle, because most people aren't willing to put in the time to learn why it isn't necessary in every cycle. Test merely has the normal physiologic balance of androgenic and anabolic properties (much of the androgenic properties come from conversion to DHT, and lots of the anabolic properties come from aromatization to estrogen....yep, I just said that). You can post all day about what test does in the body, but that doesn't mean that other AAS don't do these things or accomplish aspects of test's effects. By combining AAS to acheive a balance of androgenic and anabolic effects that mimic the effects of test (anabolism:androgenicity), you alleviate the "need" for test. It's usually much easier and cost-efficient to simply use supraphysiological doses of test than it is to mix and match AAS and appropriate doses to acheive test-like effects, so I say use test and allow other compounds to complement its effects.
06-20-2004, 11:45 PM #19Originally Posted by Matto20
06-21-2004, 12:03 AM #20
Well I know guys that use Primo and they love it but they are also taking 800-1,000 mgs a week!!!! And this isnt guys that take massive doses of Testosterone either. I personally want to try it but have been told that dont even bother unless im gonna do atleast 600mgs a week.
So you are saying that your goal is to get big and the best thing you can come up with is taking Primo or Anavar by itself!!! Tell me what kind of cycles you are doing because im intrested in what your doing.
Dont get ignorant man!!! Im not stupid!!! mg for mg these are pretty weak drugs. Every drug has its place, I know that these drugs low side effects appeal to people, but for best results these drugs dont even compare to others.
Here is the cycle that I have just completed
800mgs E/w Test cypionate weeks 1-12
400mgs E/w Deca weeks 1-11
50mgs E/w Anadrol weeks 1-4
20mgs E/w Halotestin 9-13
Was gonna do The test and deca for 14 weeks but decided not to. I have gained 34lbs at the peak of cycle weighing 274. Its been two weeks since I have done a shot of testosterone and and weigh 272lbs and am just now starting PCT. I have no Idea what im gonna end up with but thats pretty d@mn good. You gonna tell me your doing that with a Anavar or Primo only cycle????? Im not saying that your not gonna see results from doing it that way, its just not as effective as other cycles. people do Deca only cycles,Equipoise and Stanzolol cycles, Stanzolol only cycles. It doesnt mean that its the most effective or even recommended cycle.
I dont personally get the concept of bridgin either unless your a proffesional athelete of some sort.
06-21-2004, 12:06 AM #21Originally Posted by Anhydro78
06-21-2004, 12:33 AM #22
I know what you are saying einstein, I have personally done a Dbol /Deca 8weeks cycle with good results and no problems. Others have problems with taking their Androgenic and Anabolic steroids seperatly. I dont see how people have problems with it but some do. Dbol,Tren ,Anadrol ,halotestin makes me horny as h@ll. Other than my first mistake cycle of Deca only and Dbol/Deca cycle Ive used Test in every cycle.
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