02-16-2002, 09:31 AM #1
is milk thistle bullshit? read this
i got this article from the newest muscular development. according to the research done in the article, milk thistle is bullshit. tell me what ya think......
Milk Thistle is a popular bodybuilding supplement and is currently the most well researched plant for the treatment of liver disease (with over 450 published peer review papers). Silymarin, a flavonoid extract from milk thistle, has been used clinically for alcoholic liver disease treatment in Europe and Asia for almost 2,00 years. Currently it’s used by bodybuilders as a protective measure for the liver when using high dosages of orals.
Silymarin is not water-soluble and is typically administered as an encapsulated standardized extract. The absorption with oral administration is rather low, with only two or three percent being effectively taken up. The peak plasma levels after an oral dose are achieved within four to six hours.
The reason this study is significant is because of the described mechanism that milk thistle is working in the prostrate. It is showing effectiveness in treating prostrate cancer because it prevents the androgen receptors from making to the nucleus of the cell. This may be good if you are fighting cancer of the prostrate, but it is bad if you are trying to get a muscle cell to grow larger.
In order for testosterone to work, it must pass from the blood to the inside of a muscle cell, bind to the androgen receptor inside the cell, then travel inside the nucleus where it binds to your DNA.
These researchers were able to show that milk thistle did not reduce the number of androgen receptors, nor did it prevent androgens (i.e. testosterone) from binding to the receptors. All it seemed to do was prevent the androgen receptor from traveling to the nucleus, or in our case, this prevents the desired the effect. The androgen receptor, once bound to the androgen, must make it to the nucleus in order to increase protein synthesis.
Bottom line: Use milk thistle if you are sure you are having liver toxicity problems. Then, only use it for a few weeks at a time. There are other herbs with tremendous hepatoprotective effects, so you may want to give them a try instead
02-16-2002, 09:52 AM #2
ahhhhh and I just went out and bought a shit load of it lol.
Fck it. I'm using it anyway.
Good read Dane.
02-16-2002, 10:06 AM #3
what are the other herbs?
might be interesting to compare against one another.
02-16-2002, 10:16 AM #4
i don't know..i was wondering that too. maybe chrysin?
02-16-2002, 10:39 AM #5
is ala considered an herb?
this is interesting stuff, i would like to see more posts on it...................
02-16-2002, 11:24 AM #6
get liv52 its best for liver protection.
02-16-2002, 12:16 PM #7Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
ya ive heard that ALA is the way togo, im curious to see what some of the Vets/mods reply with on this one
02-16-2002, 12:25 PM #8
02-16-2002, 12:57 PM #9
flex, what's liv52, how does it work, and who makes it? Also, I'm assuming it's OTC right?
02-16-2002, 06:11 PM #10
If I'm taking orals, I take 1000 mg ED Milk thistle ED, I manged to find a brand at Walmart that has 490 mg per cap, so I take them in divided doses. I hear Milk Thistle is the shit, I'm going to take it till I hear otherwise.
02-16-2002, 06:21 PM #11
Liv52 is Indian-made herbal hepatoprotector, hard to find in the USA, but readily available in Europe, etc. Other very good alternatives are Carsil, Essenciale Forte.
02-17-2002, 07:49 AM #12
bump for the early guys.....
02-17-2002, 07:50 AM #13
i was just gettin ready to bump this myself..........
02-17-2002, 03:23 PM #14
These are contents of LIV52
Contents per capsule:
Capparis spinosa 65.0 mg
Terminalia arjuna 32.0 mg
Cichorium intybus 65.0 mg A
chillea millefolium 16.0 mg
Solanum nigrum 32.0 mg
Tamarix gallica 16.0 mg
Cassia occidentalis 16.0 mg
Mandur bhasma 33.0 mg
Other components: Eclipta alba, Phyllanthus niruri, Boerhaavia diffusa, Tinospora cordifolia, Berberis aristata, Raphanus sativus, Phyllanthus emblica, Plumbago zeylanica, Embelia ribes, Terminalia chebula.
These are the contents of Tyler.
N-Acetyl-Cysteine 200 mg
L-Glutamine (Reduced) 50 mg
Coenzyme Q-10 25 mg
Beta Carotene 15,000 IU
Vitamin E 250 IU
Vitamin C (Magnesium Acsorbate) 500 mg
Selenium 200 mcg
Superoxide Dismutase 100 mcg
Catalase 50 mcg
Quercetin 200 mg
Proanthocyanidins (Grape Seed Extract) 10 mg
Silybum marianum 50 mg
Calcium D-Glucarate 200 mg
L-Methionine 200 mg
L-Glycine 200 mg
Choline 200 mg
Inositol 100 mg
L-Ornithine-L-Aspartate 100 mg
L-Serine 50 mg
L-Histidine 50 mg
L-Carnitine (Tartrate) 50 mg
Broccoli Extract (0.7% Total Sulfur) 100 mg
Vitamin B-1 (Thiamine Pyrophosphate) 10 mg
Vitamin B-1 (Thiamine HCl) 15 mg
Vitamin B-2 (Riboflavin 5' Phosphate) 25 mg
Vitamin B-3 (Niacin) 30 mg
Vitamin B-5 (Calcium pantothenate 100 mg
Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxal 5' Phosphate) 30 mg
Vitamin B-12 (Cyanocobalamin) 100 mcg
Coenzyme B-12 (5' Deoxyadenosylcobalamin) 25 mcg
Folic acid 600 mcg
Biotin 200 mcg
Vitamin A 5000 IU
Magnesium (Citrate, Malate, Ascorbate) 235 mg
Zinc (picolinate) 30 mg
Copper (Sebicate) 2 mg
Molybdenum (Citrate) 150 mcg
Manganese (Glycinate) 10 mg
The Glucarate in Tyler is one of the best liver aids ever devoloped. It's patented and all the research on it was not in some lab that was skewed towards results proving it worked. The research was all done over many years at Ohio State University.
ALA and Tyler will take care of it. Milk Thistle is more of a BB Myth than anything else. The studies on it are very weak and do not apply to using 17aa meds they are for liver protection from poison mushrooms. I posted this the other day.
BioDrugs 2001;15(7):465-89 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Silymarin: a review of its clinical properties in the management of hepatic disorders.
Wellington K, Jarvis B.
Adis International Limited, Auckland, New Zealand. firstname.lastname@example.org
The mechanisms of action of silymarin involve different biochemical events, such as the stimulation of the synthetic rate of ribosomal RNA (rRNA) species through stimulation of polymerase I and rRNA transcription, protecting the cell membrane from radical-induced damage and blockage of the uptake of toxins such as alpha-amanitin. Studies in patients with liver disease have shown that silymarin increases superoxide dismutase (SOD) activity of lymphocytes and erythrocytes, as well as the expression of SOD in lymphocytes. Silymarin has also been shown to increase patient serum levels of glutathione and glutathione peroxidase. Silybin 20 to 48 mg/kg/day has shown promise as a clinical antidote to acute Amanita (deathcap mushroom) poisoning. Primary efficacy data from 3 trials which examined the therapeutic potential of silymarin in patients with cirrhosis, and included patient survival as an end-point, demonstrated that silymarin had no significant beneficial effect on patient mortality. However, upon subanalysis, silymarin 420 mg/day had a significantly beneficial effect on patient survival rate (compared with patients receiving placebo) in 1 randomised, double-blind trial in patients with alcoholic cirrhosis. Silymarin 420 mg/day was also shown to improve indices of liver function [AST, ALT, gamma-glutamyl transferase and bilirubin] in patients with liver disease of various aetiology, including those exposed to toxic levels of toluene or xylene; however, it was largely ineffective in patients with viral hepatitis. Reports of adverse events while receiving silymarin therapy are rare. However, there have been accounts of nausea, epigastric discomfort, arthralgia, pruritus, headache and urticaria. Silymarin has also been reported to have possibly caused a mild laxative effect. CONCLUSION: The antioxidant properties of silymarin (a mixture of at least 4 closely related flavonolignans, 60 to 70% of which is a mixture of 2 diastereomers of silybin) have been demonstrated in vitro and in animal and human studies. However, studies evaluating relevant health outcomes associated with these properties are lacking. Although silymarin has low oral absorption, oral dosages of 420 mg/day have shown some therapeutic potential, with good tolerability, in the treatment of alcoholic cirrhosis. Moreover, silybin 20 to 48 mg/kg/day has shown promise as an antidote for acute mushroom poisoning by Amanita phalloides; however, further studies paying attention to the amount of ingested mushroom and time elapsed before administration of treatment are needed to clarify its role in this indication. Studies in patients with the early onset of liver disease may demonstrate the liver regeneration properties that silymarin is promoted as possessing.
Drugs 2001;61(14):2035-63 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
The use of silymarin in the treatment of liver diseases.
Saller R, Meier R, Brignoli R.
Abteilung Naturheilkunde, University Hospital Zurich, Switzerland.
The high prevalence of liver diseases such as chronic hepatitis and cirrhosis underscores the need for efficient and cost-effective treatments. The potential benefit of silymarin (extracted from the seeds of Silybum marianum or milk thistle) in the treatment of liver diseases remains a controversial issue. Therefore, the objective of this review is to assess the clinical efficacy and safety of silymarin by application of systematic approach. 525 references were found in the databases, of which 84 papers were retained for closer examination and 36 were deemed suitable for detailed analysis. Silymarin has metabolic and cell-regulating effects at concentrations found in clinical conditions, namely carrier-mediated regulation of cell membrane permeability, inhibition of the 5-lipoxygenase pathway, scavenging of reactive oxygen species (ROS) of the R-OH type and action on DNA-expression, for example, via suppression of nuclear factor (NF)-kappaB. Pooled data from case record studies involving 452 patients with Amanita phalloides poisoning show a highly significant difference in mortality in favour of silibinin [the main isomer contained in silymarin] (mortality 9.8% vs 18.3% with standard treatment; p < 0.01). The available trials in patients with toxic (e.g. solvents) or iatrogenic (e.g. antispychotic or tacrine) liver diseases, which are mostly outdated and underpowered, do not enable any valid conclusions to be drawn on the value of silymarin. The exception is an improved clinical tolerance of tacrine. In spite of some positive results in patients with acute viral hepatitis, no formally valid conclusion can be drawn regarding the value of silymarin in the treatment of these infections. Although there were no clinical end-points in the four trials considered in patients with alcoholic liver disease, histological findings were reported as improved in two out of two trials, improvement of prothrombin time was significant (two trials pooled) and liver transaminase levels were consistently lower in the silymarin-treated groups. Therefore, silymarin may be of use as an adjuvant in the therapy of alcoholic liver disease. Analysis was performed on five trials with a total of 602 patients with liver cirrhosis. The evidence shows that, compared with placebo, silymarin produces a nonsignificant reduction of total mortality by -4.2% [odds ratio (OR) 0.75 (0.5 - 1.1)]; but that, on the other hand, the use of silymarin leads to a significant reduction in liver-related mortality of-7% [OR: 0.54 (0.3 - 0.9); p < 0.01]. An individual trial reported a reduction in the number of patients with encephalopathy of -8.7% [p = 0.06). In one study of patients with cirrhosis-related diabetes mellitus, the insulin requirement was reduced by -25% [p < 0.01). We conclude that available evidence suggests that silymarin may play a role in the therapy of [alcoholic) liver cirrhosis. Silymarin is has a good safety record and only rare case reports of gastrointestinal disturbances and allergic skin rashes have been published. This review does not aim to replace future prospective trials aiming to provide the 'final' evidence of the efficacy of silymarin.
There just doesn't seem to be any evidence it works for what we need it for.
02-18-2002, 09:20 AM #15
All you guys seem pretty knowledgable. I though you would know that using Milk thistle hurts gains. Thats what its supposed to do if you think about it. It protects the liver. You should only use it post cycle to help the liver or else you're wasting money and gear. Liv-52 basically does the same thing and should be used in the same fashion... post cycle.
02-18-2002, 11:17 AM #16
I use Tyler Liver Detox. Works great. Just do a search for it in Google if you don't know where to get it.
02-18-2002, 01:06 PM #17
02-18-2002, 03:38 PM #18Associate Member
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
anyone know samet?? its inyectable and its incredible
03-20-2002, 03:46 AM #19New Member
- Join Date
- Mar 2002
I just bought a ton of the shit... I hope it does something... your not saying that it minimalizes gains are you???
03-20-2002, 04:33 AM #20New Member
- Join Date
- Mar 2002
- i live in cumming georgia
what % of the gains do you get ??what if you just take a few a week to keep it in your system..??would that help your gains?DAMN..just bought a bunch.what do you suggest?.... thats otc
03-20-2002, 05:40 AM #21
like they said before, if your going on a cycle. take the milk thistle post cycle. JMO
should people take ALA post cycle? or can they take it during cycle?
03-20-2002, 06:25 AM #22
Isn't potential liver damage from 17aa orals done during your cycle?
I thought they were out of your system soon after your last dose (according to half life of course)
03-20-2002, 09:49 AM #23New Member
- Join Date
- Mar 2002
You guys are saying not to take the milk thistle till after the cycle??
03-20-2002, 09:52 AM #24Respected Member
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- The Rink!!
just bought some too...now what do we do???
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