really deep question about long term effects of natural growth

**serious22** · 06-25-2004, 04:49 PM

ok guys i have done my research and I have come to find alot of information on this board. i do have one big question that has still not been answered.

I know that you are not supposed to take steriods until you have reached your natural peak.i know that i havent reached my natural peak yet. i am 6'0 220 with 10%bf. I am 21 and am very serious about body building now and in the future.

question is: will taking steriods for a 6-8 week low dose cycle now affect my growth in the future. For example> if i gained 20 pounds in 8 weeks off of test cycle and kept 15. would i stay at 235 pounds until i did another cycle or will i eventually be able to make natural gains again after proper PCT?

in other words will taking 1 cycle of test shut down my natural growth b/c that is the impression i am getting from advice stating not to take AS until you are at your natural limit.

**serious22** · 06-25-2004, 05:00 PM

any advice would help?

**the dent depot** · 06-25-2004, 05:10 PM

You obviosly have your head on straight to be on here and asking this...so, props there! But you know you really shouldnt touch AAS just yet, I think you just need affirmation. Take the next 2 years to really dial in your diet and training..no more hit and miss...time to dedicate yourself...eat/sleep/sh!t BBing...if you really strive to get it right, youll grow like youre on a cycle.

I say this at least once a day on here.........eating is the hardest part of BBing.

As for an 8 week Test cycle...well the only way a short cycle like that would work is if you used a short estered Test....but with that you'd have to shoot every day or at the very least every other day....

Do the right thing and wait....youll be glad you did.

Good luck,

D

**Warrior** · 06-25-2004, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by serious22

question is: will taking steriods for a 6-8 week low dose cycle now affect my growth in the future. For example> if i gained 20 pounds in 8 weeks off of test cycle and kept 15. would i stay at 235 pounds until i did another cycle or will i eventually be able to make natural gains again after proper PCT?

in other words will taking 1 cycle of test shut down my natural growth b/c that is the impression i am getting from advice stating not to take AS until you are at your natural limit.

No - but you can only grow to the point of your genetic limitations... taking into account your muscular make up and natural androgen levels. While on cycle, if you exceed what your natural androgen levels can maintain - then you won't be able to push out more growth without the exogenous support. For example, Ronnie Coleman couldn't stop using and then maintain what he has now - and deffinitly not add more.

But I think you have confused growth plate closure with muscular hypertrophy limits... it is true that once you use AAS you will have sealed any chance for further growth in height via closure of the growth plates... that is if your endocrine system hasn't already sealed your fate... which eventually happens post-puberty...

**serious22** · 06-25-2004, 05:52 PM

i am still a little confused/ does this mean that i want be able to make natural gains after cycle?

**the dent depot** · 06-25-2004, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by serious22

i am still a little confused/ does this mean that i want be able to make natural gains after cycle?

As long as your test levels return you can grow.

D

**Warrior** · 06-25-2004, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by serious22

i am still a little confused/ does this mean that i want be able to make natural gains after cycle?

If you go over what your system can maintain with its naturally occuring androgens then, NO - YOU CAN NOT. If you are still within your genetic limitations - then, YES - YOU CAN - as long as you know how to train at your new stage of development... like you will need a more dialed in training split and diet to accomadate your new size and seek further growth...

If you use AAS to go over your genetic limitations - then you can not further improve nor maintain most your gains [from AAS] because your body does not have enough naturally occuring androgens to preserve the added LBM. But what exactly is your genetic disposition/limitation for muscular hypertrophy is something you can't really be sure of... trying new training theories and diet strategies as you get bigger and leaner are paramount to chances at further progress...

**Steroids101** · 06-25-2004, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by serious22

i am still a little confused/ does this mean that i want be able to make natural gains after cycle?

Yes, if your not already past your natural genetic potential once the cycle ends.

**Bruce willis** · 06-25-2004, 06:54 PM

how do u know ur genetic limitations?

**KAEW44** · 06-25-2004, 07:11 PM

I think it spossible to go over the genetic limitation, but as mentioned above you rbody will find it too hard to maintain those gains.

**Warrior** · 06-25-2004, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce willis

how do u know ur genetic limitations?

Obviously Ronnie Coleman is over his - no human body was designed to be that big and lean - naturally. At what point you cross that threshold is kinda subjective... it's hard to really know for sure...

**Rickson** · 06-25-2004, 07:15 PM

I am going to attack this question from a different angle. I think the limitations set from doing steroids to early come in the form of connective tissue and joint strength. I believe that when one begins to grow exceptionally large and strong without having built a proper foundation they never recover to be able to get the most out of their body. Usually they stay injured and find they can never move the weight necessary to achieve their genetic potential or anything over it. This is an opinion and based on my own experience. Some people obviously can over come with genetics what others of us cannot but to me this is the biggest danger in size limitation.

**Warrior** · 06-25-2004, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Rickson

I am going to attack this question from a different angle. I think the limitations set from doing steroids to early come in the form of connective tissue and joint strength. I believe that when one begins to grow exceptionally large and strong without having built a proper foundation they never recover to be able to get the most out of their body. Usually they stay injured and find they can never move the weight necessary to achieve their genetic potential or anything over it. This is an opinion and based on my own experience. Some people obviously can over come with genetics what others of us cannot but to me this is the biggest danger in size limitation.

Good point... I remember reading about a rare condition wear premature AAS use literally chocked connective tissue from the muscle growing much faster than the ligaments/tendons were prepaired for... also, like you said, with connective tissue - a symptomatic approach can just lead to prolonged agony...

And the fact that if you jump on AAS too fast (aside from not knowing other good fundamentals) you can really fuk up joints due to the accelerated growth/strength increases. Thankfully I was never using AAS while performing behind the neck movements like Pulldowns, Behind the Neck Presses and the old DB Shoulder Flyes... I learned these were damagin enough in a natural environment... had I been on exogenous andrgoens - I could have really messed things up... permanently.

But I think the big problem is not knowing how to properly train (and eat for the new size). I have seen many people on the sauce that still workout like a beginner... keeping any long term gains without AAS will be less likely unless they know how to up the intensity to keep a demand on the body to WANT the excess LBM... because as far as effeciency goes - it doesn't think it is necessary.

**DADDYDBOL** · 06-25-2004, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior

No - but you can only grow to the point of your genetic limitations... taking into account your muscular make up and natural androgen levels. While on cycle, if you exceed what your natural androgen levels can maintain - then you won't be able to push out more growth without the exogenous support. For example, Ronnie Coleman couldn't stop using and then maintain what he has now - and deffinitly not add more.

But I think you have confused growth plate closure with muscular hypertrophy limits... it is true that once you use AAS you will have sealed any chance for further growth in height via closure of the growth plates... that is if your endocrine system hasn't already sealed your fate... which eventually happens post-puberty...

:spudnik4: good post..

i have always heard that with the use of AS you can gain up to 100lbs of body mass past your genetic limits...any truth to that?

**DADDYDBOL** · 06-25-2004, 07:35 PM

like say if my natural limits have me at 230 then i should be able to reach 330...

i think i read that in an article by art atwood...

**Warrior** · 06-25-2004, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by DADDYDBOL

:spudnik4: good post..

i have always heard that with the use of AS you can gain up to 100lbs of body mass past your genetic limits...any truth to that?

This is a genetic thing. Some people are just more prone to growth, probably due to an increase in fiber density - AAS only induces hypertrophy (increased fiber size) not hyperplasia (increased fibers)... increasing the amount of fibers a trainee has is a BIG topic in bodybuilding. Slow negatives are thought to raise trauma enough to do it... maybe... maybe not... as far as ergogenic aids, Growth Hormone has been thought to induce hyperplasia as one of its major benfits.

Not everyone has the capability to be Markus Ruhl or Ronnie Coleman... or any other professional competitor... some of us just need to train hard and be reasonable about our expectations...

**zx7racing** · 06-25-2004, 07:39 PM

warrior and rickson- you both make a very good point.. this is a pretty interesting thread.. maybe some vets can give their experiences. like breaks inbetween cycles, what kind of progress was made and what kind of training program was used.
i get a little discouraged now and again thinking ive reached my "limit" only to find i plateued- like you said warrior, it only took an adjustment in either my diet and or training to break through.. the few cycles i have done have been more than great- but the growing inbetween cycles are getting fewer and fewer......

**DADDYDBOL** · 06-25-2004, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior

This is a genetic thing. Some people are just more prone to growth, probably due to an increase in fiber density - AAS only induces hypertrophy (increased fiber size) not hyperplasia (increased fibers)... increasing the amount of fibers a trainee has is a BIG topic in bodybuilding. Slow negatives are thought to raise trauma enough to do it... maybe... maybe not... as far as ergogenic aids, Growth Hormone has been thought to induce hyperplasia as one of its major benfits.

Not everyone has the capability to be Markus Ruhl or Ronnie Coleman... or any other professional competitor... some of us just need to train hard and be reasonable about our expectations...

right...you can't increase how much muscle there is just grow what you have...thx...good post...

**Anhydro78** · 06-25-2004, 10:03 PM

I read an article on the down regulation or androgen receptors and i think this may have somthing to do with this topic. The theory was that the reason we need to increase the dose of hormones may not be limited to the reason of down regulation of androgen receptors. But also the the addition of new receptors that grow when we increase our hormone levels. This would be one reason that we need to increase our doses from one cycle to another, so that we can accommodate the newly grown receptors. So if this theory is true it, I would think it would mean that with multiplying your receptors you would make your natural hormone levels less productive.

If someone knows what im talking about here they may be able to explain it better. Ill tell you though now that I have been cycling for years there is no chance that im gonna come off steroids and then further grow naturally.

**einstein1905** · 06-25-2004, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Anhydro78

I read an article on the down regulation or androgen receptors and i think this may have somthing to do with this topic. The theory was that the reason we need to increase the dose of hormones may not be limited to the reason of down regulation of androgen receptors. But also the the addition of new receptors that grow when we increase our hormone levels. This would be one reason that we need to increase our doses from one cycle to another, so that we can accommodate the newly grown receptors. So if this theory is true it, I would think it would mean that with multiplying your receptors you would make your natural hormone levels less productive.

If someone knows what im talking about here they may be able to explain it better. Ill tell you though now that I have been cycling for years there is no chance that im gonna come off steroids and then further grow naturally.

As you grow, you're increasing cell-count of muscle fibers. You do this indirectly or directly. AAS increase GH and IGF-1, which increase cell count of muscle fibers, or using GH or IGF-1 directly can lead to this as well. resistance training itself increases GH and IGF-1 too. The result of it all is a higher cell-count of muscle fibers. Not only does this allow for greater muscular size but also for an increased number of potential androgen receptors ( I won't go into up and down regulation of receptors). The increased number of receptors won't be a negative thing, even at normal androgen levels, this will actually increase the probability of androgen:AR bindings (you have a room full of flies and ten fly traps...you add ten more fly traps without increasing the number of flies, you catch more flies).

As for "genetic limitations", it certainly does exist, but we have no idea where this is. We use this phrase only in the context of what we currently know about hypertrophy and methods of increasing it. "genetic limitations" haven't changed over 20 years, but our knowledge of nutrition and training has, and this has allowed us to be able to attain more mass (naturally or otherwise). there's no reason to believe that over the next 20 years we won't learn even more about how the body works and find ways to better optimize training and nutrition....I say this independent of exogenous androgen use.

When people say, "don't use AAS until you've reached your genetic potential", they actual mean to wait until you've reached an obvious plateau and have utilized as many of the modern methods as possible to induce more natural growth.

**Anhydro78** · 06-25-2004, 10:59 PM

So increased receptors plays no role in needing more hormones to stimulate growth??

**kingofmasters** · 06-26-2004, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by einstein1905

As you grow, you're increasing cell-count of muscle fibers. You do this indirectly or directly. AAS increase GH and IGF-1, which increase cell count of muscle fibers, or using GH or IGF-1 directly can lead to this as well. resistance training itself increases GH and IGF-1 too. The result of it all is a higher cell-count of muscle fibers. Not only does this allow for greater muscular size but also for an increased number of potential androgen receptors ( I won't go into up and down regulation of receptors). The increased number of receptors won't be a negative thing, even at normal androgen levels, this will actually increase the probability of androgen:AR bindings (you have a room full of flies and ten fly traps...you add ten more fly traps without increasing the number of flies, you catch more flies).

As for "genetic limitations", it certainly does exist, but we have no idea where this is. We use this phrase only in the context of what we currently know about hypertrophy and methods of increasing it. "genetic limitations" haven't changed over 20 years, but our knowledge of nutrition and training has, and this has allowed us to be able to attain more mass (naturally or otherwise). there's no reason to believe that over the next 20 years we won't learn even more about how the body works and find ways to better optimize training and nutrition....I say this independent of exogenous androgen use.

When people say, "don't use AAS until you've reached your genetic potential", they actual mean to wait until you've reached an obvious plateau and have utilized as many of the modern methods as possible to induce more natural growth.

Exactly!

There is no such thing as genetic limit --> Well actually there is, but no one has ever reached it (Even not Ronny Coleman), you'll be suprised how much mass a human body can hold on too (be it fat, water or muscle).

What these guys mean is what is called "Hitting the wall" --> It means you have reached a point where it seems that you can not put on anymore mass.

I've read several studies indicating it is just a point where the body wants rest --> continous growth is very bad for the body and substantially limits your age potential (so at what age you will probably going to die if it is of natural causes).

It is just that if you have "Hit the wall" then you're body needs time to recover because the studies were talking about Telomere (the protein in cells that keeps the count on how many times the cell has multiplied) actually being regenerated (If we could find a way to do this then we would have found the fountain of youth!).
Cytokines (The messengersubstances of the Immunesystem) are then also used as reserves (you probably all know the newest "growth factor hype" Interleukine-15) and therefor growpotential is severely limited (Our immunesystem is always first priority --> Exactly the reason why if you supplement Glutamine while on cycle you maximize your gains seeing the immunesystem will use the Glutamine therefore leaving more protein available for muscle building)

In real Life I also see this theory confirmed knowing many people who were on a plateau after a year not training then going back growing again.

Or my old Freefight-teacher who was on a plateau, but continouing training for 4 years only getting stronger and lowering bodyfat but now there seems no end to his growth again.

Greets
Kingofmasters