Do orals work without a stack?

Most all of the articles I have read in this forum, regarding AS, include a stack of various proportions. It seems as though orals are "supplemental" to an extent, like a vitamin :)

Can gains be made from orals alone? Logically, it would make sense that you could considering the medicinal use is for building/rebuilding/rehabilitating muscle tissue.

If the answer is ultimately "yes" what should someone expect regarding lean muscle mass when using one of the popular orals (Winstrol, Dianabol, Halotestin, etc) without test or deca? 3lbs? 5lbs? nada?

Does anyone have experience with orals alone? If so, what results if any were noticed?
Thanks- DOW

no test=no cycle

my .02 cents...

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Originally Posted by dogsofwar

Most all of the articles I have read in this forum, regarding AS, include a stack of various proportions. It seems as though orals are "supplemental" to an extent, like a vitamin :)

Can gains be made from orals alone? Logically, it would make sense that you could considering the medicinal use is for building/rebuilding/rehabilitating muscle tissue.

If the answer is ultimately "yes" what should someone expect regarding lean muscle mass when using one of the popular orals (Winstrol, Dianabol, Halotestin, etc) without test or deca? 3lbs? 5lbs? nada?

Does anyone have experience with orals alone? If so, what results if any were noticed?
Thanks- DOW

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Whatever you gain on an oral only cycle you will lose 99% of the time. Orals such as d-bol or anadrol work well to jumpstart a cycle.
week1-4 30mg d-bol
weeks 1-15 500mg test cyp.
This is an example only, it will depend on your cycle experience. You run the d-bol so it jumpstarts the cycle as the test cyp. takes 3 to 4 weeks to kickin.
Don't forget about nolva during your cycle and pct as well.IMPORTANT.
Last but not least READ AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Good luck

:lift:

The only oral that is good to run without another compound would be oxandrolone or methenolone acetate. Running any other oral (or any combination of orals) alone will cause you problems with all sorts of things; but not oxandrolone.

Oral gains are hard to maintain if your only using orals. And if your using multiple orals for a long time you are going to have liver problems. Almost all orals are methylated, Oral = hepatoxic

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Originally Posted by nsa

Oral gains are hard to maintain if your only using orals.

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I respectfully disagree. Oxandrolone gains are some of the easiest gains to maintain. Granted, that's only one oral, but I don't think it should be "lumped" in with the rest of 'em. JMO. :D

With proper PCT oral gains can be somewhat kept. However Dbol and Abomb gains are deceptive because alot of the weight is water bloat. Steroids are steroids. The thing is you are cheating yourself of some real quality gains without test. Like I always say the old timers like Arnold lived off of Dbol, however look at the pros of then to the pros of now. BIG difference.

I agree... For the most part oral gains seem to disapear to the eye due to the amount of water weight you put on with them, but with proper PCT the actual gains in muscle strength and size can remain. I know a lot of you are searching for that quick reply button to argue this but I'm talking real muscle strength/size gains. Not water/bloat increases in size and strength but real god honest muscle increases are definately keepable with PCT.

I agree... For the most part oral gains seem to disapear to the eye due to the amount of water weight you put on with them, but with proper PCT the actual gains in muscle strength and size can remain. I know a lot of you are searching for that quick reply button to argue this but I'm talking real muscle strength/size gains. Not water/bloat increases in size and strength but real god honest muscle increases are definately keepable with PCT.

Wow another thread with parrot like replies.."no test no cycle", or "you wont gain or keep gains off of an oral only cycle". Both not true. Mass building orals (dbol & a50 etc.) produce gains but the size is usually quite deceptive due to the large amount of water retention. Yes orals are heptoxic, but that is blown out of proportion as well. A cycle of winny only is essentially the same whether its injected, or swallowed. Either one WILL produce gains and you will keep a good portion of them with proper PCT. anadrol or dbol only WILL produce gains and you will lose a good bit of size after you come off, but with proper pct you can maintain alot of strength.

We all agree that AAS build muscle. orals are AAS. orals therefore build muscle.

I find it hard to believe that if your eating, sleeping and training hard after good pct that your muscle gain from orals will atrophy suddenly.

Thanks for saying everything I said but just reworded. :p

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Originally Posted by Shortyrock13

Wow another thread with parrot like replies.."no test no cycle", or "you wont gain or keep gains off of an oral only cycle". Both not true. Mass building orals (dbol & a50 etc.) produce gains but the size is usually quite deceptive due to the large amount of water retention. Yes orals are heptoxic, but that is blown out of proportion as well. A cycle of winny only is essentially the same whether its injected, or swallowed. Either one WILL produce gains and you will keep a good portion of them with proper PCT. anadrol or dbol only WILL produce gains and you will lose a good bit of size after you come off, but with proper pct you can maintain alot of strength.

We all agree that AAS build muscle. orals are AAS. orals therefore build muscle.

I find it hard to believe that if your eating, sleeping and training hard after good pct that your muscle gain from orals will atrophy suddenly.

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Years ago when i did a minor experiment with d bol only use i've gained tremendous strength and size increase but without no PCT i lost most of my strength and size as quickly as i have gained them. But believe it or not after that cycle i started to produce better natural gains, and i did keep some size. Just my little experience.

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Originally Posted by Matto20

The only oral that is good to run without another compound would be oxandrolone or methenolone acetate. Running any other oral (or any combination of orals) alone will cause you problems with all sorts of things; but not oxandrolone.

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Var WILL shut you down and as a result you really should run TST with it. The mild side of Var is that it does not aromatize - so you need no Nolva/L-Dex for it -BUT - the catch22 is that you should be running test with it which menas you are back to Nolva/L-dex

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Originally Posted by UrbanDawg

Var WILL shut you down and as a result you really should run TST with it. The mild side of Var is that it does not aromatize - so you need no Nolva/L-Dex for it -BUT - the catch22 is that you should be running test with it which menas you are back to Nolva/L-dex

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We've gone over this a million times. How many more times do we have to do it? You do NOT need test with anavar. Granted, oxandrolone will shut you down, but it is so mild that you will not feel the effects of shutdown unless you run it for an extremely extended period of time - much more than 8-10 weeks. Libido problems running var alone are virtually nil. If you're so confident about oxandrolone causing all these problems, post me a study or even find a couple people who have experienced such problems with anavar. Good luck with that!

people are running it for long periods - ive seen several people on this board talk about 12-14 week cycles on var.

I agree you can get results from Var only cycles but antecdotaly people get better results adding TEST.

So... If someone runs a 6-8 wekk var only cycle using 40ED you think they will not notice a drop in labido during or after cycle ?

If that is true - then this is good news for all those who are afraid of needles.

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Originally Posted by Matto20

We've gone over this a million times. How many more times do we have to do it? You do NOT need test with anavar. Granted, oxandrolone will shut you down, but it is so mild that you will not feel the effects of shutdown unless you run it for an extremely extended period of time - much more than 8-10 weeks. Libido problems running var alone are virtually nil. If you're so confident about oxandrolone causing all these problems, post me a study or even find a couple people who have experienced such problems with anavar. Good luck with that!

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You'll get results from any steroid whether its oral or injectable. PCT helps keep gains, it doesnt know how you took your roids. The thing is what kind of gains do you want. Thats the bottom line.

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Originally Posted by UrbanDawg

people are running it for long periods - ive seen several people on this board talk about 12-14 week cycles on var.

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I've talked about em myself. You might experience mild symptoms late into such a cycle, but I'd doubt it. I looked over a clinical study online today that I was going to post in another thread (before my windows explorer crashed, of course), and this is just an example, which said that they gave 20 mg/day of oxandrolone to AIDS patients who were losing weight unintentionally. They took the dose for 20 weeks and suffered no side effects other than a negative change in lipid profile. No libido sides whatsoever. I have also rarely seen anyone mention even having mild libido problems after running var alone. And even if you turn out to be one of those rare unlucky ones that gets some mild whiskey dick, it can be cured of easily with cheap ol' cialis (as a last resort). Test is just simply not needed like so many of you people make it out to be...

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Originally Posted by UrbanDawg

I agree you can get results from Var only cycles but antecdotaly people get better results adding TEST.

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Perhaps more mass - but that is mainly because you are adding more steroids to your body - one that is more androgenic as well. It depends on your definition of "better" also, as not everyone is looking to gain 30 pounds in a cycle.

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Originally Posted by UrbanDawg

So... If someone runs a 6-8 wekk var only cycle using 40ED you think they will not notice a drop in labido during or after cycle ?

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They shouldn't see any problems with libido. Is there an echo in here?

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Originally Posted by UrbanDawg

If that is true - then this is good news for all those who are afraid of needles.

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Perhaps, but they are still all pussies!

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Originally Posted by Shortyrock13

Wow another thread with parrot like replies.."no test no cycle", or "you wont gain or keep gains off of an oral only cycle". Both not true. Mass building orals (dbol & a50 etc.) produce gains but the size is usually quite deceptive due to the large amount of water retention. Yes orals are heptoxic, but that is blown out of proportion as well. A cycle of winny only is essentially the same whether its injected, or swallowed. Either one WILL produce gains and you will keep a good portion of them with proper PCT. anadrol or dbol only WILL produce gains and you will lose a good bit of size after you come off, but with proper pct you can maintain alot of strength.

We all agree that AAS build muscle. orals are AAS. orals therefore build muscle.

I find it hard to believe that if your eating, sleeping and training hard after good pct that your muscle gain from orals will atrophy suddenly.

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When you indicate "size is usally quite deceptive". I respectfully appreciate the comment. However, do you know, by experience, or by someone else's, what percentage is actuallly kept? Even in a ballpark figure?

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Originally Posted by dogsofwar

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When you indicate "size is usally quite deceptive". I respectfully appreciate the comment. However, do you know, by experience, or by someone else's, what percentage is actuallly kept? Even in a ballpark figure?

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It all depends on the person, PCT, calorie intake after use, etc. Everything that applies to any cycle applies to an oral only cycle.

Understood. Was thinking about starting this cycle:
1-8 nolvadex
1-4 dbol
4-8 test
8-11 clomid
Please, critique...........

I like to say the gains kept with orals are 25-50% range when running them alone... Mind you with some people it could be more or less then that percentage... Orals are convienient yes, they do work yes, there is no needle involved yes, But... The gains are harder to keep, the side effects are generally harsher, you are really cheating yourself of a really good amount of quality muscle which can be obtained and maintained with a stack includeing test which was mentioned previous. Testosterone is the meat and potatoes of every cycle... Orals are just the appetizers served before the main course.

Test Cyp, 500mg/week, week 1-10
Dbol, 30mg/Day, week 1-4
Nolva 10mg/day, week 1-12
Clomid started 2 weeks after last test injection... 200mg first day only, 100mg a day for the next 3 weeks, 50mg a day for the last week.

I already told you this man;) And like i said before you don't NEED the dbol.

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Originally Posted by dogsofwar

Understood. Was thinking about starting this cycle:
1-8 nolvadex
1-4 dbol
4-8 test
8-11 clomid
Please, critique...........

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Geo, I respect you highly, but you said "I already told you this man And like i said before you don't NEED the dbol", but then you came back with:
Test Cyp, 500mg/week, week 1-10
Dbol, 30mg/Day, week 1-4
Nolva 10mg/day, week 1-12
Clomid started 2 weeks after last test injection... 200mg first day only, 100mg a day for the next 3 weeks, 50mg a day for the last week
Please, clairify....THanks man!

Yeah I just meant I set this cycle up in a previous thread for you... I said in that thread to just run the test alone... But then you write down the cycle from before with the dbol and it reallys seems like your dead set on using it... I personally wouldn't use the dbol... But if your going to anyway... don't use anymore then 30mg's/day for the first 4 weeks.
Good luck man

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Originally Posted by dogsofwar

Geo, I respect you highly, but you said "I already told you this man And like i said before you don't NEED the dbol", but then you came back with:
Test Cyp, 500mg/week, week 1-10
Dbol, 30mg/Day, week 1-4
Nolva 10mg/day, week 1-12
Clomid started 2 weeks after last test injection... 200mg first day only, 100mg a day for the next 3 weeks, 50mg a day for the last week
Please, clairify....THanks man!

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