Thread: any alternatives to clomid?
07-21-2004, 11:36 PM #1
any alternatives to clomid?
i started clomid yesterday and it began to effect my vision...unfortunately i got that side effect...i will NOT be taking it again...although im guessing an alternative wont be as good for boosting the HPTA im going to need to go another route. Any suggestions.
07-21-2004, 11:38 PM #2
07-21-2004, 11:45 PM #3
thats strange man, you got sides on your first day of clomid, was it 300mg?
There is no susbtance that can restore things as well as clomid, but you could do an ok job with tribilus as mentioned above, there is a supplement called Vitirx made by Nutrex, they sell it at www.allsportsnutrition.com that is the lowest price you can find it, and they ship pretty fast too. yo can use that supplement and also you might want to continue running nolvadex at 20mg.day, nolvadex does slightly boost your natural test and it will help stop rebound effects during PCT
07-22-2004, 12:05 AM #4
There only two herbs have been scientifically proven to elevate testosterone levels , tribulus terrestis and tongkat ali. I used to think Aneva Sativa (wild oats) would do the job; however, I have found contradictory evidence as to its potency. From what I have heard, Aneva frees up bound testosterone .
If you cant use clomid run 7g Trib ED. Take 2g of Tongkat ali ED split between two meals. You may experience hotflashes from the Tongkat at higher doses.
HCG would only be a good idea to use during cycle because it imitates LH, but it does not stimulate your own endogenous production of LH. In fact, it is actually suppressive of the HTPA and will inhibit recovery during PCT.
Clomid is by far the best drug to take for recovery, but a 300mg front load is alot if you are prone to sides from it. Just remember that clomid has an active half life of about 5days and if you arent experience sides right now than you are probably ok to run lower doses. Try 50mg ED or even 20mg. Some is better than nothing.
Also nolva will help too.
07-22-2004, 12:11 AM #5
07-22-2004, 01:49 AM #6
arent there any similar drugs to clomid that u can get with an rx?
07-22-2004, 01:49 AM #7
Clomid is an RX
07-22-2004, 02:05 AM #8
LilVito, I respect your opinion on this site which is why I took the time to put this reply together (more like a jumble of quotes). Feel free to critique the findings I have found; however, I will choose to stick by my advice given to Duma.
Heres what Jonhy B has to say about HCG useage:
HCG in PCT
Here’s the study:
HCG in PCT
Heres what Pheedno thinks about HCG and endogenous LH stimulation:
HCG in PCT
Einstein had a little something to say but again it was so brief it could have been taken out of context:
Cortisol and Anabolic mix
If you read swales protocol, you can see that Einstein, Pheedno, and Johnny choose to run hcg in the manner swale does.
Here’s Swales Protocol in case you were interested on how to run it:
I never said that HCG should be used during the middle of the cycle. I gave no advice as to how run because I think he should go with clomid. HCG interferes with the SERMs during PCT. If he were to run it, it would only be to get his Test factory going, so the transition to Clomid, Trib, and Tongkhat would be easier. HCG can be done post cycle and used as a bridge to PCT (In Duma's situation--what PCT); however, again I don’t recommend it because he should go with Clomid and bridging isnt the smartest way to use HCG.
However, The only way I can see using Clomid and HCG effectively together is if HCG supplies the initial fast acting shock of Testosterone production, while Clomid is used to oppose the repression of endongenous LH production. Clomid would then be used by itself later with no HCG especially because HCG is suspected of causing a complete repression of the body’s own production of gonadotropins permanently. Again, I dont see this as a good way to use HCG
The following explanation will explain HCG and LH responses more clearly than I can, or at least more convincingly.
An interesting new way of enhancing testosterone has been through the use of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). In the testosterone control pathways, the pituitary gland releases a hormone called leutinizing hormone (LH). LH travels to the testicles and stimulates the Leydig cells to synthesize and secrete testosterone. LH acts as a "thermostat" for testosterone control. As the testicles produce testosterone, levels in circulation rise. Once these levels reach a certain point, the pituitary decreases secretion of LH, and the signal to the testicles to produce testosterone is diminished. As testosterone production decreases, the pituitary gland senses this decrease and resumes secretion of LH. An analogy would be the thermostat on a furnace with testosterone being the temperature; higher testosterone turns off the thermostat, lower testosterone turns on the thermostat.
We are now able to acquire and administer synthetic LH. HCG binds the same receptors and has the same binding affinity for these receptors that LH does. Administration of HCG, therefore, can mimic the effect of LH and increase an individual's testosterone production without directly administering testosterone. In men who still have a functional LH/testosterone control loop, this way of raising testosterone is the most physiologic, and is not associated with testicular atrophy that can occasionally be seen with direct testosterone administration. HCG can be administered daily in small doses via a subcutaneous injection, or given twice weekly via the same route. While direct injection of testosterone has a 100% success rate, there is approximately a 10-15% failure rate seen in individuals using HCG. With normal aging, the testicles will at some point stop responding to the LH signal from the pituitary, this is usually associated with a rise in LH levels. An analogy for this would be to consider LH level a sign of the pituitary's appetite for testosterone. The higher the LH level, the greater the appetite; so with many men, as testosterone secretion declines, the LH level rises in response. In some men, this LH rise does not occur, and when HCG therapy is undertaken, we have no other initial marker to use in deciding whether or not this therapy will be effective. If testosterone levels do not rise as we follow a patient's program, we know the "disconnect" between the testicles and the pituitary has occurred, and this is an indication that, for that individual, direct testosterone supplementation is the appropriate route.
Administering HCG directly after steroid treatment helps to reduce this condition because HCG increases the testosterone production in the testes very quickly and reliably. In the event of testicular atrophy caused by megadoses and very long periods of usage, HCG also helps to quickly bring the testes back to their original condition (size).
Although HCG does stimulate endogenous testosterone production, it does not help in reestablishing the normal hypothalamic/pituitary testicular axis. The hypothalamus and pituitary are still in a refractory state after prolonged steroid usage, and remain this way while HCG is being used, because the endogenous testosterone produced as a result of the exogenous HCG represses the endogenous LH production. Once the HCG is discontinued, the athlete must still go through a re-adjustment period. This is merely delayed by the HCG use. For this reason experienced athletes often take Clomid and Clenbuterol following HCG intake or they immediately begin another steroid treatment. Some take HCG merely to get off the "steroids " for at least two to three weeks.
HCG takes the place of LH (luteinizing hormone) and this sends a signal to the testes to begin producing testosterone again. The only problem with this is, it causes a negative feedback and then you have to recover from the drop in LH. Using it for no more than 3 weeks and making sure you end it about 1-2 weeks before you end your usual PCT should solve this small problem.
Over a period of weeks of this depressed signal the testicles ability to respond to any signal from the pituitary becomes very weak, which results in testicular atrophy. To avoid this athletes will use HCG to keep an artificial signal going to the testis and preventing testicular atrophy. When administered, HGC raises serum testosterone very quickly. A rise in testosterone firs appears in about two hours after injecting HCG. The second peak occurs about two to four days later.
Last edited by BeefCakeStew; 07-22-2004 at 02:33 AM. Reason: Couple of changes to clarify my sentence.
07-22-2004, 02:20 AM #9New Member
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Taking HCG after cycle will not restore HPTA - it actually worsen things. Alternative to Clomid is fulvestrant (Faslodex) or small dose anastrozole (or similar antiaromatase) on-off cycling.
The ultimate cross-bridge
07-22-2004, 02:26 AM #10New Member
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Oh, almost forgot - letrozole is very effective but the dosing is very delicate. And it doesn't interfere with IGF production. The trick with any antiaromatase as PCT = very small dose and on-off.
The ultimate cross-bridge
07-22-2004, 05:16 AM #11
07-22-2004, 10:07 AM #12
I'm hearing a lot of bros going with a strictly Nolv PCT, no clomid, adding some trib in the 5-6g range. Also, some have had positive results using 6oxo but you will hear people claim that 6-oxo doesn't do sh!t.
Nolv dosing is
20mg ed wk 1-2
10mg ed wk 3-4
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