A theory I cooked up; Semi-Permanent Fat loss?

**Demon Deacon** · 09-25-2004, 10:53 PM

bump so its easier to find in the morning

**lylemcd** · 10-21-2004, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by kingofmasters

Thanks Friend!
DNP is non-hormonal; and not included in any feedback system so why would it adjust the "setpoint"?

Anything that causes fat loss, whether slow or drastic (doesn't matter if it's diet, exercise, DNP , clen or anything else) will drop leptin.

There's the hormonal feedback to the setpoint.

Lyle

**Demon Deacon** · 10-21-2004, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by lylemcd

Anything that causes fat loss, whether slow or drastic (doesn't matter if it's diet, exercise, DNP , clen or anything else) will drop leptin.

There's the hormonal feedback to the setpoint.

Lyle

How does that exactly work?

**lylemcd** · 10-21-2004, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Demon Deacon

How does that exactly work?

How does what exactly work?

Lyle

**Demon Deacon** · 10-21-2004, 05:28 PM

How does the leptin drop. What causes it. Why does it happen. What does that have to do with gaining your weight back. Why doesnt DNP go around this/why is DNP not immune to this?

Basically i dont know what leptin is and i dont know how it works or why it has to do with weight gain.

**lylemcd** · 10-21-2004, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Demon Deacon

How does the leptin drop. What causes it. Why does it happen. What does that have to do with gaining your weight back. Why doesnt DNP go around this/why is DNP not immune to this?

Basically i dont know what leptin is and i dont know how it works or why it has to do with weight gain.

Short course on leptin

Leptin is a hormone produced primarily in fat cells (also in muscle cells, gut and other places) that, in essence, tells your brain two things. It tells it

a. how much bodyfat you have
b. how much you're eating

any time you start to pull calories out of fat cells (agian, whether you do it with diet, exercise, or drugs makes no difference), the fat cell 'senses' this and leptin levels drop.

This is important because the hypothalamus (which is where the setpoint is monitored) is monitoring levels of leptin (and other hormones such as ghrelin, peptide YY, insulin and others) so that it knows how much you're eating and how much fat you have.

And when those signals drop, the hypothalamus reacts by slowing metabolic rate, crashing hormones, making you hungry. It does this to keep you from starving to death (now, DNP does avoid one of the problems with dieting, the drop in metabolic rate that occurs, because it has such profound efects on metabolic rate).

So when you end a diet, the hypothalamus knows that you are below your setpoint (essentially where it thinks your bodyfat/calorie levels are 'normal') because of the drop in leptin (which basically sets the 'tone' of the hypothalamus for the other hormones).

This is at least part of why there tends to be a fat regain after a diet, people eat more (b/c appetite is up) and thier metabolic rate is down (meaning more calories are stored).

I don't see how DNP can avoid any of this, it's going to crash leptin like a rock (part of why people crave carbs on DNP is that dropping leptin causes levels of a neuropeptide called NPY to go up and that makes you crave carbs) by pulling fat calories out of the fat cells at an accelerated rate.

Lyle

**longhornDr** · 10-21-2004, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Demon Deacon

How does the leptin drop. What causes it. Why does it happen. What does that have to do with gaining your weight back. Why doesnt DNP go around this/why is DNP not immune to this?

Basically i dont know what leptin is and i dont know how it works or why it has to do with weight gain.

Leptin is produced in proportion to fat mass. As you get fat, you produce more leptin, when you lose fat you produce less leptin.

High leptin levels supress appetite and stimulate uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation, basically tries to get rid of excess fat. Low levels of leptin have the opposite effect.

It's basically the fat-thermostat. It's what sets your body's natural composition set-point.

There's no reason to think that fat loss from DNP would be exempt from this.

(This is all theory and not completely proved, yet)

**lylemcd** · 10-21-2004, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by longhornDr

Leptin is produced in proportion to fat mass. As you get fat, you produce more leptin, when you lose fat you produce less leptin.

High leptin levels supress appetite and stimulate uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation, basically tries to get rid of excess fat. Low levels of leptin have the opposite effect.

Not really as the system is horribly assymetrical, raising leptin does far less for blunting hunger/burning off calories than dropping leptin does for the opposite.

the exceptions are lean folks who have very low leptin levels (where lepti nreplacement will have very good effectss) or in the small percentage of folks who are extremely leptin sensitive.

But they tried jacking leptin into fat people and it had a tiny effect on anything.

Lyle

**longhornDr** · 10-21-2004, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by lylemcd

Not really as the system is horribly assymetrical, raising leptin does far less for blunting hunger/burning off calories than dropping leptin does for the opposite.

the exceptions are lean folks who have very low leptin levels (where lepti nreplacement will have very good effectss) or in the small percentage of folks who are extremely leptin sensitive.

But they tried jacking leptin into fat people and it had a tiny effect on anything.

Lyle

The theory is that it is assymetrical in obese people, not normals. We think that obesity may be due to unresponsiveness to the normal feedback systems of leptin.

**lylemcd** · 10-21-2004, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by longhornDr

The theory is that it is assymetrical in obese people, not normals. We think that obesity may be due to unresponsiveness to the normal feedback systems of leptin.

a. Who is 'we'?
b. As you may know, leptin appears to generate maximum responsiveness at about the 1-2 ng/dl range or so (I think those units are right), above that you get a decreased response to increasing levels.
c. Why would the system NOT be assymetrical in leans? The fact is that there was never any selection pressure against overweight and that applies regardless of lean or obese.

Lyle

**Demon Deacon** · 10-21-2004, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by lylemcd

a. Who is 'we'?
b. As you may know, leptin appears to generate maximum responsiveness at about the 1-2 ng/dl range or so (I think those units are right), above that you get a decreased response to increasing levels.
c. Why would the system NOT be assymetrical in leans? The fact is that there was never any selection pressure against overweight and that applies regardless of lean or obese.

Lyle

What's ng/dl?

**lylemcd** · 10-21-2004, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Demon Deacon

What's ng/dl?

nanograms per deciliter, a measurement of the concentration of leptin in the bloodstream. A male at about 10% bodyfat or so would have leptin in that range. Fat people can get leptin in the teens, 20's and even higher. It's thought that, above 20-25 ng/dl, brain receptors become saturated and levels above that have no further effect.

Lyle

**longhornDr** · 10-21-2004, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by lylemcd

a. Who is 'we'?
b. As you may know, leptin appears to generate maximum responsiveness at about the 1-2 ng/dl range or so (I think those units are right), above that you get a decreased response to increasing levels.
c. Why would the system NOT be assymetrical in leans? The fact is that there was never any selection pressure against overweight and that applies regardless of lean or obese.

Lyle

Who is they?

I use "we" to refer to the medical community/researchers. We dont refer to us as "they" as a layperson would.

The whole leptin issue is muddy at best, I've seen convincing arguments for several opposing views, there's no reason to argue about it because in the end nobody knows the answer.

It's been theorized that there was selection pressure against being grossly obese. Do you really think that the 300lb+ 4'11" blobs would not have been selected against? There's much to it than that as well but I believe it is beyond the scope of this board.

**Demon Deacon** · 10-21-2004, 09:53 PM

No you guys should continue to debate it. I am learning things so i appreciate the info guys. Thanks

**hippofatimus** · 10-22-2004, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by longhornDr

There's much to it than that as well but I believe it is beyond the scope of this board.

I've been lurking for a long time. in my experience, there's very little beyond the scope of this board. Please explain the "much more to it" part.

**Ultimate** · 10-23-2004, 01:41 PM

Changed this since it had nothing to do with thead

**9000rpm** · 12-07-2004, 12:18 PM

I just read this thread for the first time. Great info here. Took me about 30 to 40 minutes to read through all of it though. But now I feel like I"m pretty well educated on DNP . Now I just need to read the many DNP diaries to view the sides and how harsh they are to make my final decision.

Thanks for the great posts guys.

**Ultimate** · 01-13-2005, 08:54 AM

Bump, just got my DNP today but unfortunatly will not be able to use it for a while since I am starting my AAS cycle this sunday.

So all you people out there continue posting info on this great thead... I've read this whole thing 4-5 times already.... and I learn something new everytime...

***Mr. Sparkle*** · 01-23-2005, 06:01 PM

..

I didnt read the whole thing in a while.... but my only beef with what KOM says is the fact that he uses it in PCT.... I do not advocate that.

**w_rballs** · 01-23-2005, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Sparkle

..

I didnt read the whole thing in a while.... but my only beef with what KOM says is the fact that he uses it in PCT.... I do not advocate that.

whys that?

**Animal Cracker** · 01-23-2005, 07:44 PM

Good point!

**inevitable** · 01-24-2005, 09:30 PM

ahahahahaha

***Narkissos*** · 01-24-2005, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by inevitable

ahahahahaha

you lost me here

This is still by all acounts a great thread.

Haven't seens KOM around for a bit... anybody seen him?

***Mr. Sparkle*** · 01-24-2005, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by w_rballs

whys that?

What are you doing in PCT? trying to keep gains...... how? by eating a lot, training hard, and sleeping a ton.... DNP makes it hard to do all of those things....
IMO run it before your cycle or early on...

***Mr. Sparkle*** · 01-24-2005, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

Haven't seens KOM around for a bit... anybody seen him?

Nope, I miss his posts....

**TheChosenOne** · 01-24-2005, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Sparkle

What are you doing in PCT? trying to keep gains...... how? by eating a lot, training hard, and sleeping a ton.... DNP makes it hard to do all of those things....
IMO run it before your cycle or early on...

Wasnt it Spywizard and Ben Lifton that ran DNP PCT and both are raving about it. I personally could never do it because of my past reaction with it but I am curious how others fair with it during PCT.

***Mr. Sparkle*** · 01-24-2005, 11:20 PM

I still do not see how its a good idea... at all!

yeah but didnt ben lose like 40lbs or something nuts like that? I just wonder how much LBM was lost in the process...

I havent read what spy thought, he never finishes his "updates" lmao

**TheChosenOne** · 01-24-2005, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Sparkle

I still do not see how its a good idea... at all!

yeah but didnt ben lose like 40lbs or something nuts like that? I just wonder how much LBM was lost in the process...

I havent read what spy thought, he never finishes his "updates" lmao

Yeah Ben lost a ton of weight I remember that but that guy is Jacked up thats for sure. I wonder what his LBM numbers were before starting DNP and upon concluding in order to judge its effectiveness. I still dont think I would recommend it for myself but there are at least 3 people that are advocates of it (KOM, Ben/Spy)