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  1. #1
    Big_Diesel's Avatar
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    Guys are going overboard on Anti-E's

    One should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids . Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

    Stacking and Use:

    If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

    Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

    For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

  2. #2
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    i have never used clomid during cycle and i dont think a low dose of nolva throughout cycle will hinder gains much i personally believe since nolva also reduces water retention ppl think they are gaining less but they actually just reducing some bloat

  3. #3
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    Its a catch 22. Use some and loose some of the tests potential. I think you should use it only if you see a problem. I have done numerous cycles and have never used Anti-E's. No problems

  4. #4
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    I so disagree with your old school outlook on this.I'm to busy to debate you on this right now.I'll let einy,Pheedno,Mudman,KOM and others battle it out with you.

  5. #5
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    Its not my opinon its facts lets get this right............dont debate it just show me the evidence that what I wrote is wrong......You cant.

  6. #6
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    Where are the references for that article?


    -B

  7. #7
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    And please explain to me how myself and most of the guys that I know only keep it on hand just in case and there isnt a bitch tit in the crowd. You guys are scaring all these young dudes into big doses of Anti-Es and then sayin "you got to do a Gram of Test a week".....That, my friend is wrong!

  8. #8
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    Prove me wrong .................

  9. #9
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    i'll stick with my 10mg nolva ed, gains are still good

  10. #10
    Big_Diesel's Avatar
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    How much test do you use??

  11. #11
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    600mg enanthate /week

  12. #12
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    The first flaw in your article is that you are saying that Nolvadex hinders gains because it reduces estrogen in the body and that is 100% wrong. Nolvadex competes with estrogen for receptors in certain areas of the body like the nipples for instance, so Nolvadex doesnt interfere with the benefits of equally elevated estrogen to testosterone . Now Proviron is a different story.

  13. #13
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    im with you 100% on this diesel

  14. #14
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    You could cut that in half and probably do the same. Less is always better. And you guys need to remember that just because Estrogen is considered a female hormone it is very vital to a mans health and hormone axis also.

  15. #15
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    and by the way great post bro

  16. #16
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    At what point should on eintroduce anti-e's from my understanding gyno can blow up virtually overnight?

    What ammount of anti-e's would you recommend for this cycle?

    2g test prop wk
    600mg eq wk
    700mg fina wk
    280mg var week

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lozgod
    The first flaw in your article is that you are saying that Nolvadex hinders gains because it reduces estrogen in the body and that is 100% wrong. Nolvadex competes with estrogen for receptors in certain areas of the body like the nipples for instance, so Nolvadex doesnt interfere with the benefits of equally elevated estrogen to testosterone. Now Proviron is a different story.
    Just didnt want you to miss this. Not that conceded to quote myself.

  18. #18
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    No answer or rebuttal huh?

  19. #19
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    When you start to notice any chages in your breast tissue, ie; swollen nipples, lumps or bumps. Anyhow most of this will leave upon session of the cycle.

  20. #20
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    I think what your saying is exactly what Im saying, your not only blocking receptors for the estrogen from the Test but also natural Estrogen produced by the body. Thats why its called an Anti-Estrogen.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lozgod
    Just didnt want you to miss this. Not that conceded to quote myself.
    Doesnt make any sense. If your blocking receptors the Estrogen is still not getting in....................please explain

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    When you start to notice any chages in your breast tissue, ie; swollen nipples, lumps or bumps. Anyhow most of this will leave upon session of the cycle.
    My issue isn't gyno related to anti's.There are quite a few benefits to taking a SERM and AI during cycle.If you're are to ignorant to understand this,I feel for you.....well,not really.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    I think what your saying is exactly what Im saying, your not only blocking receptors for the estrogen from the Test but also natural Estrogen produced by the body. Thats why its called an Anti-Estrogen.
    No I am not saying what you are saying.


    Heres what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    One should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex.
    This is wrong because Nolvadex DOESNT reduce estrogen, it blocks it from landing on a few selected estrogen receptors, not all of them. Primarily in the breast area, which is what makes it an effective breast cancer drug.

  24. #24
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    So what your tellin me is that Nolva was made for BBs? And where in my post do I call it a eliminater?????

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    I agree with you that Estrogens have SOME benefits
    (hell they can even induce FAT-LOSS), it just is that for these benefits you will need a real small amount of Estrogens;
    An Aromatase Inhibitor like Letrozole leaves about 1-2% left in the blood, which is enough for most of the positive effects!
    (Cutting out all estrogens is impossible and would leave a man agressive and impotent!)

    Greets
    Kingofmasters

  26. #26
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    It was made for breast cancer patients to reduce the cell growth thus reducing the possibilty of reoccuring cancers

  27. #27
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    You realise that Nolvadex is a SERM right??? There are several things that nolvadex will act agonistically for in your body.

    BTW, taking about a gram of test, 25mg Aromasin ED, 10mg Nolva ED, my E2 level was still in the normal male range. Total suppresion is not going to happen.

    people are still talking about anti-estrogens reducing gains?!?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    So what your tellin me is that Nolva was made for BBs? And where in my post do I call it a eliminater?????
    No I said it was for breast cancer, and I quoted exactly what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made....... Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger.

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    I too completely disagree with this idea........the whole "anti e's on hand" idea is sooooo 1980's. Lozgod is exactly right in saying that nolva, a SERM that is specifically an estrogen receptor antagonist at the breast, does NOT lower systemic estrogen levels, so you can still maintain a high systemic estrogen level and also prevent gyno sides (which isn't my primary reason for using it anyway). I use it to complement a low dose AI, which WILL lower systemic estrogen levels but only to a very small degree due to the dose and amount of aromatizable substrate that we take in (testosterone ). Excessive bloat and hypertension is NOT conducive to gains.....quite the contrary, so we use a low dose AI to just stay out of reach of these symptoms while still maintaining high systemic estrogen levels.

    You also fail to consider the effect that estrogen has on SHBG...it drastically increases SHBG, so the AAS present in your body have a reduced bioavailability with higher SHBG levels.

    As for nolva and IGF-1.......who cares? It reduces serum IGF-1 levels.....never has it been shown to reduce intramuscular IGF-1 (IGF-1Ea), which is an entirely different issue and the one that's relevant to skeletal muscle growth.

    Nolva also has lipid benefits that are very welcome during an AAS cycle.

    Nolva doesn't do you any good "on hand"....you need to ingest it

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor.


    Not just breast tissue....................
    That shouldn't be news to anyone here, hence the lipid benefits

    Also, nolva is preferentially a breast tissue ER antagonist, but an ER agonist in bone and liver

    Clomid is preferential to the hypothalamus (as an ER antagonist), hence it being an excellent choice for PCT

  31. #31
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    The problem is you dont know how nuch is being blocked and from which part of the tissue, hence the guys that still get Gyno while taking huge amounts. The proof is in the puddin...........Nuff said on my end.
    Last edited by Big_Diesel; 08-01-2004 at 02:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    The proof is in the puddin...........Nuff said on my end.
    The "puddin" being you asserting something w/o any substantiation?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    The proof is in the puddin...........Nuff said on my end.
    I hate to admit when I was wrong also and use an elementary statement like that to go out on, but its ok, if you know everything then you cant learn anything new, so it is good to be wrong sometimes.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by einstein1905
    I too completely disagree with this idea........the whole "anti e's on hand" idea is sooooo 1980's. Lozgod is exactly right in saying that nolva, a SERM that is specifically an estrogen receptor antagonist at the breast, does NOT lower systemic estrogen levels, so you can still maintain a high systemic estrogen level and also prevent gyno sides (which isn't my primary reason for using it anyway). I use it to complement a low dose AI, which WILL lower systemic estrogen levels but only to a very small degree due to the dose and amount of aromatizable substrate that we take in (testosterone ). Excessive bloat and hypertension is NOT conducive to gains.....quite the contrary, so we use a low dose AI to just stay out of reach of these symptoms while still maintaining high systemic estrogen levels.

    You also fail to consider the effect that estrogen has on SHBG...it drastically increases SHBG, so the AAS present in your body have a reduced bioavailability with higher SHBG levels.

    As for nolva and IGF-1.......who cares? It reduces serum IGF-1 levels.....never has it been shown to reduce intramuscular IGF-1 (IGF-1Ea), which is an entirely different issue and the one that's relevant to skeletal muscle growth.

    Nolva also has lipid benefits that are very welcome during an AAS cycle.

    Nolva doesn't do you any good "on hand"....you need to ingest it

  35. #35
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    No I can show you Ten guys that dontdo anti Es on 500mg of test and you give me your best 1000mg testers and they are gonna make the same gains. thats the puddin

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    The problem is you dont know how nuch is being blocked and from which part of the tissue, hence the guys that still get Gyno while taking huge amounts. The proof is in the puddin...........Nuff said on my end.
    You need to defend yourself a little better bro. Lozgod, Einy, and KOM are totally winning this "debate".. Before I even read their posts, I totally disagreed with you. Now I think your post is complete bull**** JM2C

    Long Live 10mg Nolva ED!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    No I can show you Ten guys that dontdo anti Es on 500mg of test and you give me your best 1000mg testers and they are gonna make the same gains. thats the puddin
    That's just you making an unsubstantuiated claim based on antiquated rhetoric. The "anti e's limit gains" stuff is over.....the world is no longer flat, and women can now vote.....just because it was asserted in the past, doesn't make it accurate or correct

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Diesel
    The problem is you dont know how nuch is being blocked and from which part of the tissue, hence the guys that still get Gyno while taking huge amounts. The proof is in puddin...........Nuff said on my end.

    bah ha


    How do you think people know its agonistic and antagonistic properites...did we guess? Its called biochemistry and radioactive mapping son...

  39. #39
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    Oh please, then you probaly know all the negative side effects associated with it to then right???? Oh or all you future scientist gonna break that myth too..................

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselatc
    You need to defend yourself a little better bro. Lozgod, Einy, and KOM are totally winning this "debate".. Before I even read their posts, I totally disagreed with you. Now I think your post is complete bull**** JM2C

    Long Live 10mg Nolva ED!
    He can't back a thing up with any facts or even a respectable debate.He just runs and hides when he is shot down.

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