cycle

[AlexG]

Ok i took your advice and mixed winstrol with my deca /prima course. so the course is as follows

weeks 1 - 6 deca / 200mg, 300, 400, 400,300, 200
weeks 1 - 5 winny/ 50 mg twice a week (injectible)
weeks 1 - 8 prima tabs/ 175 mg per week

should i run clomid weeks 10, 11, 12?`
and do i need nolvadex or proviron ?

[D12]

I would run the deca for at least 10 weeks because your best results wont come till later in the cycle, as deca is slow acting.
The winny I would say 50mg atleast every other day. And the prima I would not use more then 6 weeks as it seems to be rule of thumb for orals. You should not need the nolvadex but it is always good to have it on hand just incase. Start clomid a week after your last injection, HCG would be a good idea as well.

Eat BIG
Train Hard
Sleep lots

[Fast Results]

In MO, if your gonna run HCG run it in the middle of cycle and of course run clomid post. Some people may say HCG is a waste but i get a cycle on my cycle with it.

Fast R

[AlexG]

HCG in the middle of the course? for how long though do i need to use it?

[partyboynyc]

i always use HCG week 4-5 of my cycle just when my natural test would be shutting down then again teh week before i come off and again the 3rd week i'm off.just how i do it.some people may say different but i'm able to keep all my gains within 2-3 lbs.i also run creatine(5-10gm), taurine(4gms), and glutamine, at the end of my cycle for like a month or two.i don't know.it works for me.take if for what it's worth.good luck to you bro.

[big_guy]

i think your cycle looks pretty good, but run the deca for at least 8 weeks. do winny EOD. do your clomid 3-3.5 weeks after last deca injection. Deca is long acting and u need to have not much in your system before u start your clomid. Read iron games post about it, you'll understand what im saying... i don't know much about primo tabs, so i dunno about how long to u should use them...

peace and be safe.

[AlexG]

so if i understood its weeks 4 and 5 when i should use HCG . But wouldnt my testes still be shut of after i stop if the cycle goes on for 8-10 weeks?

[The Iron Game]

do not run clomid and hcg at the same time it is akin to taking one step forward and two steps back

[Fast Results]

Partyboy and IG are right on. A good way to look at it: You dont want your balls to shut completely, yes they get use to the AS and shut down but HCG will help keep them rather than not. Try it like this 500iu's everyday for two weeks total of 7000 iu's for the 2weeks. Use clomid lets say 3-4 weeks after your last deca shot assuming your last shot is deca. you want to get as much of it out of your system to get your nuts going again without you losing your gains. If you have lets say (these arent exact figures) 25% of AS in your system and you start clomid kiss your gains goodbye. but if you have 18% when starting clomid therapy then you hit it just right. theres enough AS in your system to keep your gain but not enough to keep your nuts from working. I hope this is coming out right Maybe IG or Partboy can clean up what I just said.

Fast R

[The Iron Game]

FastResults I cant really clean anything up, hcg is for women, it causes an increase in estrogen greater than an increase in testosterone . Why anyone would want to use this stuff beats me.

It causes gyno, acne, all other estrogen related sides and for what? To boost sex drive which can be done with other things and to increase ball size? it lasts for 2-3 days. It is purely visual and nothing else.

[Fast Results]

Like PartyBoy says ... Some people might not agree. im sure my knowledge on juice is nowheres close to IG, but I can only tell ya about my experiences. "For Me" it works just fine.

[AlexG]

so IG can you give me some of your opinions then? what should i use when my testes start shrinking? or should i just use clomid at the end of the course, i mean 3 weeks after my deca injection

[The original jason]

in an 8 week cycle i would use hcg 500iu's ed from week 3 onwards untill last shot then stop. However if I wasnt doing that I would be using it 500iu's ed for weeks 6&7 this according to Bill R helps post cycle recovery time personaly I like my balls to be big and healthy my mind plays enough tricks on me so one less thing to look at is better for me and I have had good results with it doing its job

peace
jason

[D12]

Here is a thought, the Iron Game says HGC is for women, he is right, and so is clomid they are both women fertillitie drugs let me explain something the easiest way I can, here goes.... HCG makes your testes produce a large amount of its own test 400mg or so per shot, its jump starting your body to produce its own test again. Clomid will not jump start your bodies own test production, it will compliment the hcg and get your body back to normal slower, the clomid also puts your testicullar axis back to were it should be after a cycle knocks it way off. Here is the best way to use the two and this is after carefull research:


WK1 deca last shot
wk2
wk3
thru hcg 3000i.u's clomid 100mg
fri clomid 100mg
sat clomid 100mg
sun clomid 100mg

WK4
mon - sun clomid 100mg
tues hcg 3000i.u's
sunday hcg 1500i.u's

WK5
mon - sun clomid 100mg
fri hcg 1500i.u's

WK6
mon - sun clomid 50mg

WK7
mon - sun clomid 50mg

wk8
Monday clomid 50 mg and your done!!

[xenithon]

hi there,

i just wanted to know: if you use clomid for sure, is there anything you can use instead of HGC to boost natural test. production quick, without all those side effects mentioned? will proviron /nolvadex not work? will clomid on its own not work?
thanks!

[The Iron Game]

Originally posted by D12
Here is a thought, the Iron Game says HGC is for women, he is right, and so is clomid they are both women fertillitie drugs let me explain something the easiest way I can, here goes.... HCG makes your testes produce a large amount of its own test

Yes true and did you know the increase in estrogen caused is greater than the increase in test? So if HCG causes large amounts of test to be released what do you think it does for estrogen levels?

[D12]

Nolvadex is a anti estrogen and will not work to restore your natural prduction, maybe in extremly high dossages. Proviron and clomid will also work but proviron will not jump start it either and all drugs will produce side effects. HGC is not know to produce side effects like the other guy said about acne and all, that is something I have never heard, nor ever read anywhere. HGC/Clomid is your best bet to get your body back to normal to retain as much of your gains as possible. Everyone I know who uses AS follow up with thier post cycle using Hcg /clomid including myself and have all kept abvout 90% or more of thier gains.

[xenithon]

hi again,

so is there a better alternative to that? should clomid maybe be used alone, for like 3 weeks going 50mg/day 100mg/day 50mg/day in those 3 weeks after the cycle, starting 2 weeks after last shot? or should another alternative be used which can also boost test but not too much estrogen + side effects?

[D12]

Are you asking for a different way because you cant get HCG ?

[xenithon]

okay i c. i am just scared of all those side-effects mentioned, and I know that too much estrogen is NOT what is wanted. does HCG cause those huge estrogen jumps? if so, then it could be a problem no?

[The Iron Game]

Originally posted by D12
HGC is not know to produce side effects like the other guy said about acne and all, that is something I have never heard, nor ever read anywhere.

"When pharmacological amounts of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG ) are administered to normal men, direct secretion of estradiol by the testis increases in proportion to the enhancement of testosterone secretion [J Clin Inves 1971; 53:1-6]."


If you wish to use HCG, it should only be done mid cycle, to the time before clomid therapy is started. It should not be used in conjunction with clomid and is used only for two reasons.

1. Because you want your sex drive increased &

2. Because you want your balls to hang lower

Now as far as # 1 if this is your only purpose then forget using it. There are many other things out there that wont possibly add a pair of tits to you as well.

Remember if there aint a problem dont try finding a solution. If your ball size is ok and you want an increased sex drive then dont even think about hcg.

Nolvadex is a must but not only this make sure you have an aromatase inhibitor in use as well. Nolvadex is an used for its antagonist properties. What will happen is that the nolva will block the increase of estrogen from binding to the er but once nolvadex is stopped then the excess estrogen will strike vengeance upon thee. This is the purpose of using an aromatase inhibitor is to prevent this problem.

"I am not convinced that even arimidex or like can help prevent the production of estradiol, or its side effects, caused by hCG use. This is because the estrogen production happens within the balls rather than in peripheral tissue" (Doc Mark)

In most cases it is not needed for the average newbie cycle and I personally can only think of its use dedicated to trenbolone and nandrolone .

If you are sensitive to gyno or acne. Stay away.

[D12]

If you used HCG for a long period of time then yes just like anything I sure you may have problems. The duration of the use in this post cycle therapy will be virtually harmless and because it is water based it will be out of your system in as little as 24 hours. If you are concerned about estrogen use nolvadex to block it. I think you should do some research on what ever you decide to take, cause most of you AS will convert to estrogen and if your predisposed to them side affects even a small dosage could affect you.

[xenithon]

well the only thing i'll use HCG for is to boost natural test. production. i will use clomid post cycle for anti-estrogen (which according to all the pages and posts is the best anti-estrogen post cycle). I just would like to know what to use if the balls start to shrink., to get the body to make em puff up again

[The Iron Game]

I really dont know how much clearer I could have made my post.

[D12]

Iron Game, thank you for correcting me, I have never read that. But also be aware that clomid can cause certian forms of cancer just as AS will , so there for no matter what you put in your body you are taking a chance. I can speak on experance just as I am sure you can to, I have never had any problems with the use of HCG .

[xenithon]

sorry, I was busy typing replies when your post came up so I missed it.

If your ball size is ok and you want an increased sex drive then dont even think about hcg.

so if in lets say 4th week the ball size starts decreasing, would you then suggest nolvadex as in the post? then after nolvadex go onto clomid post cycle?

sorry for the hassle, just want to be absolutely certain

[partyboynyc]

i'm pissed reading all this!!!

[RON]

I think what IG is saying is that nolva is an anti-estrogen. It is completely different from clomid or HGC. It won't make your balls grow. At least from what little I know. (might swell if you shoot it on site) J/K

[Pete235]

Ron...that's funny and painful at the same time!! I laughed and winced symutaneously
Pete

[Fast Results]

... IG and D12 are giving both sides very clearly. This is what Im getting from this, If your balls are shrinking which I dont think they will as a novice dont use HCG , If they're then use the use the HCG "mid cycle" . If you are "prone to gyno" which is itchy nipples or fat deposit behind the nipple use Noladex if you are not getting any itchy nipples or fat biuld up then dont use it. Clomid is a must, anyone will tell you that. Your whole point in doing AS is GAINS! A well planned cycle is strong research and the number one rule in MO is dont start your cycle without all your gear and that includes precautionary gear, (the just in case gear)


Fast R

[RON]

Pete, the funny thing is I better some Idiot has tried that

[Pete235]

Ron...I'm sure they have tried it. Hey do you guys remember a post on Elitefitness a few months ago about the guy who was injecting his gear directly into his anus? I shit you not...this guy was doing that and complaining that he wanted to quit doing gear becasue the injections hurt so much. No shit Einstein!!!
Pete

[AlexG]

HCG is pregnyl here and yea its obtainable but isnt teslac a better alternative to hcg? the only problem is the only thing i cant find is teslac anything else i can get with no problems

[AlexG]

thx for all the info guys lots of different opinions and advices.. i changed the course to:

weeks 1 - 8 deca / 200 300 400 400 300 300 300 200 mg
weeks 1 - 5 winny / 50 mg EOD (dunno where im gonna inject all of this im running out of spots )
weeks 1 - 7 Primabolan S
weeks 11 - 13 clomid 50mg/100mg/50mg

still not sure on the HCG i got my hands on it and arimidex so if my balls start shrinking ill do armidex and HCG together during the cycle. Is HCG the only option though? is there any other products which would boost my own test production but keeping estrogen on low? thanks again fellas.

[The Iron Game]

Originally posted by xenithon
sorry, I was busy typing replies when your post came up so I missed it.



so if in lets say 4th week the ball size starts decreasing, would you then suggest nolvadex as in the post? then after nolvadex go onto clomid post cycle?

sorry for the hassle, just want to be absolutely certain

No, what im saying is that if you wish to use HCG then nolvadex as well as an aromatase inhibitor is a must to try and limit estrogen conversion and to prevent the increase in estrogen from binding to the estrogen receptor.

If your ball size really matters to you that much then use it. But dont use it just because you want to feel an increased sex drive.

Just my 0.2

[Fast Results]

Alex, just curious why your tapering your deca ? You dont need to, deca takes a while to kick in. run it 400mg straight threw. I would run the winnie 50mg everyday. You will get better results! Im at mid cycle now and doing deca,sus,winny,hcg and I know about feeling like a pin cushion. What I do is since the hcg is under the skin I have no problems with it but the winny I shoot 2 days and drink for 2 days and so on it makes it easier for me, some people say that drinking winnny you dont get the same effect well thier wrong. Good luck and if you have questions do a PM to me I'll help the best I can.

Fast R

[xenithon]

thanks I G. I get you now. If I am having ball problems I will use HCG and Nolva midcycle. otherise, if there aint no ball problems during the cycle, I will just use clomid post cycle. even if there are no ball problems, is there anything I will need to take post/mid cycle especialliy to reboost natural test. production? or is that only neccessary for much harder/longer cycle? will clomid boost natural production enough or not?

[AlexG]

thx IG i understand what you are saying. One final thing is would arimidex /hcg be better than nolvadex /hcg?

[The Iron Game]

Originally posted by AlexG
thx IG i understand what you are saying. One final thing is would arimidex/hcg be better than nolvadex/hcg?

Yes but arimidex and nolvadex together for more certainty