Ongoing debate: How toxic (really) are the orals?

**UrbanDawg** · 08-26-2004, 02:27 PM

These seem to be 2 camps on AR. Those who think the toxicity of orals is overhyped and those who think it is understated.

My searches have not found any posts that document toxicity with studies showing elevated liver values correlated with oral cycles.

Anyone have something definitive that would lead us to a conclusion like - "you can do Halo @40ED for no more than 5 weeks" .. or .. "Dbol should only be run 4 weeks"

Bottom line - where did these rules of thumb for oral cycles thumb come from?

**SportsMedVIP** · 08-26-2004, 02:33 PM

Good question.

**Johnnystick77** · 08-26-2004, 02:33 PM

great question

**Pale Horse** · 08-26-2004, 02:35 PM

Mostly from other peoples experience . I often get upset whrn people spit out the "you're gonna **** out your liver!" line. I contend that most morons that party hearty getting plowed constantly are doing as much or even more damage than a cycle ever could. No one has posted anything comparing alcohol vs oral AS. So when people start sayin crap like that it pisses me off. What really needs to be done is monitoring during a cyle of liver values to see how they personally effect you but most people can't afford it or don't want to bother.

**steggs** · 08-26-2004, 02:35 PM

well when i have my bloods done every month those times im on oxymtholone my white cell count is always elevated and enyme levels are increased wich i think means toxicity i may b wrong
just a thought....

**Johnnystick77** · 08-26-2004, 02:37 PM

not to threadjack but has anyone on this board experienced jaundice or jaundice features while cycling?

**Lozgod** · 08-26-2004, 02:38 PM

I think it is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy overhyped, I had 2 doctors tell me that. They both pretty much stated that the liver is very forgiving and as long as it isnt abused there isn't a whole lot to worry about.

**Pale Horse** · 08-26-2004, 02:40 PM

No jaundice, elevated liver values can be achieved taking tylenol or ibuprofin. They don't mean much unless they go off the charts. You liver will recover and regenerate. It takes a heck of a lot to shut down your liver and there would be plenty of signs well befor it came to that to stop and reverse the course. I believe highly in milkthistle etc.. for good measure but liver toxicity is overstated big time IMO.

**Johnnystick77** · 08-26-2004, 02:42 PM

Lozgod would you quit replying b/c i can't concentrate with that avatar....lol

**REV** · 08-26-2004, 02:44 PM

If you take the appropriate precautions like milk thwistle and stay away from alcohol while on them, it's probably way more safer to your liver then eating mac Donalds.

**Lozgod** · 08-26-2004, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by REV

If you take the appropriate precautions like milk thwistle and stay away from alcohol while on them, it's probably way more safer to your liver then eating mac Donalds.

I don't think McDonalds affects the liver.

Now the heart is another thing. A value meal is nothing but packaged Trans-Fatty Acids.

**Johnnystick77** · 08-26-2004, 02:51 PM

Trans fatty acids are EFA's right?
sorry i couldn't help it

**Pale Horse** · 08-26-2004, 02:52 PM

Loz I think the "chemical" milk shakes might!

**steggs** · 08-26-2004, 02:53 PM

bump

Originally Posted by Johnnystick77

Lozgod would you quit replying b/c i can't concentrate with that avatar....lol

**Da Bull** · 08-26-2004, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Lozgod

I think it is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy overhyped, I had 2 doctors tell me that. They both pretty much stated that the liver is very forgiving and as long as it isnt abused there isn't a whole lot to worry about.

I agree that it's over hyped on this board....BDTR has made some great posts to conflict with all this hype.He ran dbol for 20 weeks straight without issues,He claims he has friends do the same.
He did say he got jaundice once from running several orals at high doses for long peroid of time.
I know guys that ran 2 orals at once for 8-10 weeks and didn't have any issues either.
Once you come off,your liver corrects itself.I'm not advocating long,high dose oral cycles,but I really beleive things like this get "parroted" on this board to frequently.

**odrorir** · 08-26-2004, 02:57 PM

EFA=Good
TFA=Make you a fat ****

Originally Posted by Johnnystick77

Trans fatty acids are EFA's right?
sorry i couldn't help it

**Johnnystick77** · 08-26-2004, 02:58 PM

joke bro

**Blown_SC** · 08-26-2004, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Lozgod

I think it is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy overhyped, I had 2 doctors tell me that. They both pretty much stated that the liver is very forgiving and as long as it isnt abused there isn't a whole lot to worry about.

Tell me then what you consider 'abuse'? At what point is it considered such? Thanks.

**BUYLONGTERM** · 08-26-2004, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Da Bull

I agree that it's over hyped on this board....BDTR has made some great posts to conflict with all this hype.He ran dbol for 20 weeks straight without issues,He claims he has friends do the same.
He did say he got jaundice once from running several orals at high doses for long peroid of time.
I know guys that ran 2 orals at once for 8-10 weeks and didn't have any issues either.
Once you come off,your liver corrects itself.I'm not advocating long,high dose oral cycles,but I really beleive things like this get "parroted" on this board to frequently.

I'm starting to agree. But, If we start telling new guys to do orals longer, I don't think that is a good idea either. I always say everyone is different . Example, a newbie should stay with the 4 week rule with Dbol and a conservative dose and see how it goes.. And if from there slowly work your dosage and time up.

**Lozgod** · 08-26-2004, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Da Bull

I agree that it's over hyped on this board....BDTR has made some great posts to conflict with all this hype.He ran dbol for 20 weeks straight without issues.

Now I agree with 100% of what you said dont get me wrong, but BDTR is not a good example of a controlled subject. He isn't human. I don't know what he is or where he came from but it isn't earth. I believe he could do 100i.u.'s of HGH stacked with 200mcg's of IGF ED along with 1000mg's of Tren and 10,000mg's of Test a week and not suffer sides.

**Da Bull** · 08-26-2004, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by buylongterm

I'm starting to agree. But, If we start telling new guys to do orals longer, I don't think that is a good idea either. I always say everyone is different . Example, a newbie should stay with the 4 week rule with Dbol and a conservative dose and see how it goes.. And if from there slowly work your dosage and time up.

I agree..my advice is very conservative....but I don't practice what I preach.Nor do many other experienced bros on this board.

**Lozgod** · 08-26-2004, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Blown_SC

Tell me then what you consider 'abuse'? At what point is it considered such? Thanks.

50mg of Dbol with 50mg of Winny ED for 6 months.

**Da Bull** · 08-26-2004, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Lozgod

Now I agree with 100% of what you said dont get me wrong, but BDTR is not a good example of a controlled subject. He isn't human. I don't know what he is or where he came from but it isn't earth. I believe he could do 100i.u.'s of HGH stacked with 200mcg's of IGF ED along with 1000mg's of Tren and 10,000mg's of Test a week and not suffer sides.

He gets plenty of sides..you just don't see him post and cry about it.He deals with it like a man.He know what's in store for him and mans up.

**DEVLDOG** · 08-26-2004, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Da Bull

I agree..my advice is very conservative....but I don't practice what I preach.Nor do many other experienced bros on this board.

the old "do as i say not as i do" rule... always liked that one

**SportsMedVIP** · 08-26-2004, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Lozgod

I don't think McDonalds affects the liver.

Now the heart is another thing. A value meal is nothing but packaged Trans-Fatty Acids.

Check out "Super Size Me". High fat diets are extremely harsh on your liver. Of course we're talking a lot of McDonalds but the effect is there.

**BUYLONGTERM** · 08-26-2004, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Da Bull

I agree..my advice is very conservative....but I don't practice what I preach.Nor do many other experienced bros on this board.

Nor do I bro...

**Pale Horse** · 08-26-2004, 03:15 PM

I agree that everyone needs to start low and see how it goes from there. Everyones body is different.

I have many issues that I have shared about on this board . I sued to drink 1-2 fifths of vodka a day for about 5 years and my liver values were "high" but no jaundice or weird stuff that I should have gotten. Obviously I don't drink anymore.

My point is that my body tolerated it and some peoles couldn't my doc was amazed that I didn't have a fatty liver, it was perfeclty healthy except my values were high. I owe it all to a long line of alcoholics on both sides of the family "Gee Thanks Mom and Dad!". My liver is built for speed and endurance!

**GTCp1** · 08-26-2004, 03:34 PM

I have some ADrol the only problem is I DONT KNOW IF ITS REAL!! How the He@! can I tell? Its mexican, it has anadrol 50 and oxymetholone stamped on it. I may have spelled Oxy wrong but I am at work not home. Any help?????

**Da Bull** · 08-26-2004, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by GTCp1

I have some ADrol the only problem is I DONT KNOW IF ITS REAL!! How the He@! can I tell? Its mexican, it has anadrol 50 and oxymetholone stamped on it. I may have spelled Oxy wrong but I am at work not home. Any help?????

When you get home,post a pic of it.That's the only way you'll get help.

**UrbanDawg** · 08-26-2004, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lozgod

but BDTR is not a good example of a controlled subject. He isn't human.

LOL

**I-WISH-A-MF-WOULD** · 08-26-2004, 04:28 PM

Pending a liver function test after 4 weeks of 25mg of Halo. Will keep ya posted.

**UrbanDawg** · 08-26-2004, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by I-WISH-A-MF-WOULD

Pending a liver function test after 4 weeks of 25mg of Halo. Will keep ya posted.

im in week 2 of a 4 or 5 week Halo @40ED. Im gonna get my blood work on the day after my last halo pill.

If the conclusion is that toxicity IS overhyped - hell im gonna run Halo for life - I love the stuff. It gives me strength, burns fat and for some unknonn reason puts me into a mildy euphoric state

**smhart75** · 08-26-2004, 04:55 PM

good info on this thread

**dieseL atC** · 08-26-2004, 05:32 PM

I'm on the side that thinks orals are overhyped as far as liver toxicity is concerned. I ran halo @ 30mg ED for 4 weeks and all I did was drink a ****load of water, no supps or anything and had no probs. Halo is supposed to be the most harsh oral and I had NO probs. Just got strong as ****

Like Da Bull said, BDTR has ran insane doses for most of the orals for extended periods of time and had problems only once (and I think that was in the beginning of all of his chemical researching

) My next cycle will be Prop/Tren A/Halo.. Can't wait to double my maxes on that bi0tch...

But like everyone has said before me, start low and see how you react. Raise the dose till you get the desired effects with minimal sides.. Me personally, I had NO sides from Halo... Next time 40mg for 5-6 weeks