08-30-2004, 07:47 PM #1
Durabolin (Nandrolone Phenylpropionate) dosage effectiveness?
Can anyone tell me, from experience, what a good dose for Durabolin (Nandrolone Phenylpropionate) is? The phenylpropionate ester takes up 31% of the actual space in 100mg of Durabolin, whereas Deca -Durabolin (Nandrolone Decanoate), the Decanoate ester takes up 35% of the volume per 100mg. I've read experienced users who've ran Deca at doses around 600mg/wk, which would come to be 390mg of free Nandrolone. In order to keep blood levels the same, one would have to run around 525mg of NPP/week. I was gonna run Durabolin in my next cycle @ 350-400mg/wk, however, if the extra 125-175mg/wk made all the difference in my gains, then I'd obviously wanna run it higher. Just FYI, I plan on stacking Durabolin with 1050mg/wk of Test Propionate & 350mg/wk of Anavar .
08-30-2004, 08:12 PM #2
In your cycle i think 400mg of NPP should be fine, just shoot it every 2EOD as it is faster acting then Deca , you will have too shoot freqently anyway as you are using prop...good luck...XXLSOURCE CHECKS ONLY FOR USERS WITH OVER 100 POSTS.
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08-30-2004, 11:42 PM #3
Thanks, Mike. I'll be shooting it ED with my Prop. My daily rundown will be as follows:
1-15 T. Prop 150mg/ED
1-14 Durabolin 60mg/ED
1-8 Anavar 50mg/ED
9-14 Winstrol 50mg/ED
1-20 Nolvadex 20mg/ED
16-20 Clomid 100mg/ED
13-15 Humulin-R 20iu/ED
1-20 Creatine 10g/ED
1-20 L-Taurine 4g/ED
1-20 L-GLutamine 6g/ED
1-20 Daily Muti-vitamin ED
08-30-2004, 11:48 PM #4Junior Member
- Join Date
- May 2004
08-31-2004, 02:51 AM #5
Nandrolone is Nandrolone. The ester plays no role in how hard you are shut down. That's like saying, "Test Propionate doesn't shut you down as hard as Test Enanthate ." The only difference between Durabolin & Deca -Durabolin is that Durabolin is a shorter ester, meaning the following things:
1.) It's out of your system quicker, which is good in case you start seeing negative sides and wish to discontinue usage.
2.) You get more Nandrolone per 100mg (shorter ester takes up less volume)
3.) It kicks in faster, which means you'll only have to wait a week or two instead of 5-6 weeks like you would with Deca.
4.) Frequent injections = more stable blood levels.
Bottom line: Nandrolone will shut your down hard, & so does Trenbolone . Run your proper PCT and you should be fine.
08-31-2004, 01:16 PM #6Originally Posted by GymDog
Lower blood levels, in general, lead to less suppression.
Ester # of Carbons Anabolic Effect Anabolic / Androgenic Ratio PRC** (P) x10-3
formate 1 1176 13:1 15*
acetate 2 1594 11:1 25*
propionate 3 1880 10:1 41*
butyrate 4 1488 7:1 69
valerate 5 2526 9:1 115*
hexanoate 6 3731 9:1 192
heptanoate 7 6559 13:1 269
octanoate 8 5557 15:1 611
nonanoate 9 5080 19:1 455
decanoate 10 7735 25:1 802
undecanoate 11 6576 32:1 1460
How can the greatly higher anabolic effects of the long chain esters be explained?
While the authors do not make note of it in either article cited, there is a simple explanation for the observed result. Long chain esters of anabolic steroids are not many more times potent than short chain, if indeed they are any more potent at all. Yet in the above study, the undecanoate ester was found to give 3.5 times the effect of the propionate ester. Why?
There is a difference in pharmacokinetics (the time course of the drug in the body). Although the same 1 mg dose is being given in each case, it is either present in the serum of the animal at a relatively high concentration for a relatively short time for the shorter chain esters, or at lower concentration for a longer time for the longer chain esters. This difference can be quite large: the undecanoate ester can be predicted to have a half-life 36 times longer than that of the propionate ester.3
With most drugs, response is not proportional to the dose, but to the log of the dose. Assuming that the dose is well into the effective range, taking ¼ the dose does not result in only ¼ the result, but in ½ the result.
Viewed in this light, if the nandrolone propionate had been given in 36 divided doses over the same length of time that nandrolone undecanoate was in the system, in a manner to match its pharmacokinetics, one would expect 1/6 the result from each individual dose before accounting for molecular weight differences. The cumulative response would be 36 times 1/6, or six times the observed result from the single large dose. If we then correct for the lower molecular weight of the propionate ester, which delivers more nandrolone per mg. than does the undecanoate ester, we would predict 3.3 times more response than from the single large dose. In fact the observed response of the undecanoate ester was 3.5 times that of the propionate ester. This difference is within experimental error.
This calculation I have performed is also supported by experimental evidence performed by van der Vies4. His research showed that when the dose of nandrolone was divided into frequent small injections in such a pattern as to mimic the pharmacokinetics of esters, the anabolic effect became identical to that of the esters.
Thus, pharmacokinetics, the log dose/response curve, and differences in molecular weight are sufficient to account for observed differences in anabolic effect between different esters of an anabolic steroid , or between an ester and the parent drug.
This correlates with my observation that anabolic effect of testosterone esters is equal, so long as each is administered reasonably frequently: at least once per half-life, and preferably twice. E.g., if testosterone propionate yielding some given amount of testosterone per week is administered daily, or at least every other day, it will give results comparable to testosterone cypionate administered at least once every week, and preferably twice per week, that yields the same amount of testosterone per week.
How can the differences in anabolic/androgenic ratio be accounted for, and how significant are they?
Partition coefficient is key information for determining how a drug will be distributed in the body. The ratio of solubility between oil and water gives good relative predictions of the ratios of solubility between blood and target organs. Different target organs, for example the levator ani muscle vs. the prostate, may have different solubility properties. A more lipophilic drug (one with a high partition coefficient) would distribute much moreso into a more lipophilic target organ than into a less lipophilic one. It may then be the case that the longer chain esters partition more preferentially into muscle and less preferentially into the skin and prostate, but this is not demonstrated.
For this to be the case, it would be necessary for the esterified steroids to be distributed throughout the body after slow release from the oil depot injection site, rather than to have only free parent drug released from the injection site. This is an agreement with the findings of James et al.3 which demonstrate that the esters do indeed become distributed throughout the body after injection.
I don’t, however, expect that differences in distribution are the primary reason for observed differences in anabolic/androgenic ratio between different steroid esters. There is another possible explanation for differences in this ratio. In the same work referenced above concerning anabolic effect as a function of pharmacokinetics, van der Vies showed that if nandrolone is administrated with frequent dosage patterns designed to give the same trend of serum levels as seen with either phenylpropionate or decanoate, nandrolone itself gave the same anabolic/androgenic ratios as each of these esters of nandrolone."
08-31-2004, 01:46 PM #7
Thanks MMC78! I've always wondered if there was a positive correlation between anabolism & length of esters, but I never came across this information. This will significantly change my approach to cycling now. I'm gonna post my redesigned cycle in a new thread...
08-31-2004, 01:59 PM #8
Okay, wait. I reread your article and I'm confused. IS your article saying that longer esters yield better anabolic results than shorter esters? That's what I thought @ first, by looking at the anabolic/androgenic ratio chart, however, your last paragraph says, "if nandrolone is administrated with frequent dosage patterns designed to give the same trend of serum levels as seen with either phenylpropionate or decanoate, nandrolone itself gave the same anabolic/androgenic ratios as each of these esters of nandrolone." So is there really a difference, or will injecting Durabolin EOD yield the same results as you would injecting Deca once/week?
08-31-2004, 02:54 PM #9
08-31-2004, 03:30 PM #10Originally Posted by GymDog
If you're injecting let's say 500mg every week of Nandrolone Undecoanate vs 500mg /week of phenyl propionate your blood levels will be very different in the later weeks of your cycle.
The long half life of undecanoate will ensure that the injection from week 1 will still be active in your system 2,3, and perhaps 4 weeks into your cycle, whereas your first injection of penylprop will have cleared your system in the first week. Over time, the levels of nandrolone undecaonate will increase with each injection. Each new injection will add to your existing levels. Levels will peak a week or two after your last injection for the cycle. Since phenyl prop has a shorter half life, the blood levels will remain more constant.
You can use this calculator http://www.come.to/roidcalc to try to determine blood levels for different compounds and administration periods. It's probably not very reflective of "actual" blood levels, but ballpark figures will show you what I'm saying.
08-31-2004, 05:37 PM #11
Ah! Makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up, bro...
11-11-2004, 10:58 PM #12Junior Member
- Join Date
- Oct 2001
hey bros im planning my 2nd cycle for winter tell me what u think i intend to use npp.. any input please let me know!
16 Week Cycle
- enanthate : 500mg/week (shots every monday/thursday) 1-16
- deca : 400mg/week (shots every moday/thursday) 1-14
- prop: (.75cc shots EOD) -only run for first 4-5 weeks-
- NPP deca: (.75cc shots EOD) -only run for 1-5 weeks!-
-nolvadex : 140mg/week (EOD)
- vitamen B-6: 1400mg/week (ED)
let me know what u bros think?
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