Mods and Vets Confused- Coming off steroids (day X)

[jason3500]

I read on the home page of this site under the section "coming off steroids " that you should decrease a testosterone over time before an end of a cycle and stoping abrubtly is wrong. Also to take in 20=30% less food and train a little lighter and less in order to avoid the catabolic effect caused by the stopping of the steroids. This is in direct contracdiction to everybody's posts on this board. Can any advanced mods and vets comment.

Arcticle:Prepare for day X slowly and steadily The athlete should stop taking the strongly androgenic steroids approximately four weeks before interrupting the steroid regime. When tablets such as Dianabol or Anadrol are taken, these are to be reduced slowly and evenly within fourteen days so that exactly two weeks before day X the oral intake of predominantly androgenic, steroids is terminated. Those who take injectable, androgenic steroids such as Testosterone or Parabolan reduce these to zero within four weeks so that their intake will end on day X. The milder, oral steroids such as Primobolan S, Winstrol , Oxandrolone, Oral-Turinabol , etc. are slowly and evenly reduced fourteen days before day X so that after two weeks they are no longer taken. It is sufficient when the dosage of the "weaker" injectable steroids such as Deca -Durabolin , Primobolan Depot, Winstrol Depot is reduced to half of their intake about one week before termination.


3.) Avoid an abrupt discontinuance of all steroids at the same time because the body would enter an immediate catabolic phase. The cortisone receptors will be free and in combination with the low testosterone and androgen levels a considerable loss of strength and mass, and an increase of fat and water, and often gynecomastia will occur. Gynecomastia is possible because the suddenly low androgen level shifts the relationship in favor of the estrogens which suddenly become the domineering hormone. Especially eye-catching is also the extreme listlessness to training or sex and a generally weak state of mind of several athletes. If not forced because of medical reasons never discontinue steroids "cold turkey"


4.) If the athlete does not yet take antiestrogens he should begin their intake during the last weeks before ending the steroid regime. Athletes who already take antiestrogens the weeks before should continue to do so over the described interval. A daily combination of 20 mg Nolvadex and 25 mg Proviron is usually sufficient for this purpose. This avoids an estrogen surplus, an important factor, which also must be considered when in the following testosterone stimulants such as HCG are taken since HCG often also increases the estrogen level. Since the androgenic effect of Proviron also promotes the increase of the androgen level the androgen/estrogen ratio is further shifted in favor of the androgens. The possibility of a rebound effect after the discontinuance of the antiestrogen combination is considerably reduced by Proviron.


5.) In order to increase the body's own testosterone production the athlete, on one hand, takes HCG which directly and quickly stimulates the Leydig's cells in the testes and, on the other hand, takes Clomid which promotes the complete hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis, however, it needs a longer start-up phase. The administration of HCG begins during the last week of discontinuance. The athlete injects three times 5000 i.u. in a three-day interval. Following, three more injections of 5000 i.u. are injected every five days. After the third HCG injection the intake of Clomid begins since its gonadotropin-stimulating effect in the event of an already activated increased testicular activity is more effective. Clomid is now taken over two weeks, two tablets of 50 mg each per day in the first week and 50 mg tablets per day in the second week. Point 5 obviously does not apply to women.


6.) All this, however, helps only if the athlete is able to mostly block out the catabolic effect of the increased cortisone level. A compound which, because of its distinct anticatabolic effect, fulfills this requirement is the beta-2 sympathomimetic, Clenbuterol . Clenbuterol successfully blocks the cortisone receptors so that the athlete is usually able to maintain a large portion of the strength and muscle mass built up by the steroids. The intake of Clenbuterol begins directly at the end of the steroid therapy and continues over 8-10 weeks (see also Clenbuterol). Another compound of the group of sympaticomimetics which also has an anticatabolic effect (but less pronounced than Clenbuterol) is Ephedrine. Probably the most suitable drug in this situation is a preparation which in school medicine is used in the treatment of the Cushing's syndrome, a hyperfunction of the adrenal glands which causes the body to produce too much cortisone. Those who have read this book carefully will know which drug is meant: Cytadren . Since it reduces the cortisone level extremely well athletes usually take it directly after completion of a steroid treatment (see also Cytadren). Several athletes take thyroid hormones in this phase since they have an anabolic effect when taken in small dosages and for not excessively long intake intervals. Their effect can be clearly increased by the anticatabolic effect of Clenbuterol which explains why this combination is used during the phase of discontinuance. The use of growth hormone also makes sense since it has a strong anticatabolic/anabolic effect. You can forget Ornithin and Arginin which supposedly increase the realising of GH, because they are ineffective. Distance yourself from the thought that pharmaceutically improved muscle mass can be maintained with "natural methods."


7.) Adjust your nutrition according to the new situation. After discontinuance of the steroid intake the metabolism will go back to normal. This means that the athlete should reduce his daily caloric intake over the course of several days by 25-30%. The protein supply, however, should still be relatively high at 1- 1.5 g of protein per pound of bodyweight per day.


8.) Reduce your workout schedule. Avoid maintaining the same workout program as during steroid regime since this would only magnify the catabolic effect. The athlete should not come up with the crazy idea of compensating a possible loss of performance by increasing the extent and intensity of his workout since such an action would have a negative effect. Limit yourself to your basic exercises, train every muscle once a week, and try to maintain your strength as much as possible. Do not train more than four times a week and limit the workout sessions to 60 minutes. Several so called "experts" are of the opinion that the athlete after a steroid regime should avoid the heavy basic movements for some time and suggest that exercises are carried out more frequently with lower weights. Dear Reader, try it. Those who used to make 8 repetitions of squats with 400 pounds and now switch to leg extensions or leg presses with 12-15 repetitions will wonder how fast an upper thigh can lose size.

[tryingtogetbig]

much of the information in the homepage is out of date, i.e. people have learned better techniques since that information was posted.

I would take the advice of the guys on the board much more seriously than old information. But, ultimately, it is your body. Read as much as you can and make your decisions based on guys that you know are talking from experience.

peace,
ttgb

[symatech]

start reading the pct forum. the mainpage is outdated. anytime you need info just stay in the forums.

[jason3500]

I agree its outdated but I would like some comments about the logic behind slowly decreasing steroids as it seems to have some validity behind it.

[NotSmall]

The idea, I believe, was to taper off the test slowly in order to let your natural test kick back in.
The newer thinking however seems to be that it only takes a very small amount of exogenous test to shut down endogenous test so your natty test is not slowly kicking back in during the taper down, it remains shut off until all exogenous test is out of the system. Therefore there is no point in tapering off, seeing as your natural test is shut off anyway you may as well stay at full dosage until complete cessation of the exogenous test.

[tryingtogetbig]

The idea, I believe, was to taper off the test slowly in order to let your natural test kick back in.
The newer thinking however seems to be that it only takes a very small amount of exogenous test to shut down endogenous test so your natty test is not slowly kicking back in during the taper down, it remains shut off until all exogenous test is out of the system. Therefore there is no point in tapering off, seeing as your natural test is shut off anyway you may as well stay at full dosage until complete cessation of the exogenous test.

yep!!

[MIKE_XXL]

My way of doing things, stop all gear at once no cycling down...start your PCT for 4-6 weeks after that, also i recomend Clomid through out the whole cycle to limit the natural production shut down...once done cycle reduce the over all volume of trainnig, keep intensity but reduce volume...reduce cardio, and lower over all calories by 15-20%...start creatine 5-10gm per day and glutamine 20-30gm per day...seems to work good for me...XXL

[BeefCakeStew]

You must also remember that the steroids with long esters like enanthate and Decanoate taper themselves down (and up) all by themselves. For this reason we start PCT a few weeks after these steroids have stopped being taken.

It is not good to stop cold turkey on the extremely potent steroids like Tren , Dbol , halo ect... because your body will go into an extremely catabolic state as the article says because your HTPA will be completely, or very close to completely, shut down. For this reason many recommend running Test a few weeks past your harsher substances to allow the body time to adjust without the substances.

The PCT advice looks decent; however, I would use HCG differently--that is by using the swale protocol.

[)(PimP JuicE)(]

My way of doing things, stop all gear at once no cycling down...start your PCT for 4-6 weeks after that, also i recomend Clomid through out the whole cycle to limit the natural production shut down...once done cycle reduce the over all volume of trainnig, keep intensity but reduce volume...reduce cardio, and lower over all calories by 15-20%...start creatine 5-10gm per day and glutamine 20-30gm per day...seems to work good for me...XXL

ok, so you would reduce volume to keep your body from a catabolic state\overtraining? and, lowering calories, i thought you were supposed to keep them high during pct...just a thought.

[hung-solo]

bump

[GymDog]

My way of doing things, stop all gear at once no cycling down...start your PCT for 4-6 weeks after that, also i recomend Clomid through out the whole cycle to limit the natural production shut down...once done cycle reduce the over all volume of trainnig, keep intensity but reduce volume...reduce cardio, and lower over all calories by 15-20%...start creatine 5-10gm per day and glutamine 20-30gm per day...seems to work good for me...XXL

What benefits do you see when running clomid throughout your cycle? I'm curious, because I used to do it like that and people told me I was just wasting money and that clomid during a cycle had no effect on accelerating HTPA recovery...

[jason3500]

Mike how much do you run and when during cycle?

[BeefCakeStew]

ok, so you would reduce volume to keep your body from a catabolic state\overtraining? and, lowering calories, i thought you were supposed to keep them high during pct...just a thought.

Yeah bro, it is best to keep them high to avoid catabolism; however, you risk putting on fat weight in this way. Part of the reason I run Clen during PCT is so I can keep Kcals high and avoid the unecessary gain in fat.

As for lowering the volume, I agree that it makes alot of sense. Why work muscle groups harder when they are many times less likely to recover as well as while on AAS. The problem arises when people take it to the extreme and don't differentiate between lowering the volume and undertraining.

[MIKE_XXL]

What benefits do you see when running clomid throughout your cycle? I'm curious, because I used to do it like that and people told me I was just wasting money and that clomid during a cycle had no effect on accelerating HTPA recovery...

Speaking from expiriance i always run Clomid at 50mg all the way through out the cycle, from day 1 of the cycle to 6 weeks after the cycle end, and i can tell you that my nuts do not shrink nearly as much as they do when i don't take clomid, i do believe it stimulates my HTPA and i am still producting my own natural test even while on gear, it is reduced but i know i am not totaly shut down and that is important to me, and second i do not crush after the cycle, my own natural production recovers much quicker and i feel "Normal" much quicker if i use the Clomid...this from practical first hand feedback of "ME", that's what it does to me and really it is not that expensive to run Clomid all the way through, i feel the added benifit is worth the extra $$$...XXL

[MIKE_XXL]

One more thing it acts like an Anti-E so if you are going to get Nolvadex i would preffer Clomid because it not only acts like an Anti-E in breast tissue it also acts like Estrogen in other tissue such as bones which requier estroget to stay healthy, where as Nolvadex blocks estrogen in all tissue, where the bone health can sufer...XXL

[Ntpadude]

The idea, I believe, was to taper off the test slowly in order to let your natural test kick back in.
The newer thinking however seems to be that it only takes a very small amount of exogenous test to shut down endogenous test so your natty test is not slowly kicking back in during the taper down, it remains shut off until all exogenous test is out of the system. Therefore there is no point in tapering off, seeing as your natural test is shut off anyway you may as well stay at full dosage until complete cessation of the exogenous test.

There was one thing I did notice... well its like this. Forget the part about ending your cycle with weaker steroids like deca , EQ, etc... you should run testosterone longer then anything else.

When I end cycles... I always seem to have nothing but 1/2 CC for my last injection simply because ran out of gear and this was the last odd amount. So my last injections have always been about 100 to 125 mg.... I have had very good recoveries each time I enter PCT. Last time and this time I did taper down the last injection and it seems when I am thrown into PCT, I almost start recovery even before I can take the clomid. I was expecting the sust I was on to have a half life requiring up to 4 weeks after last injection, but then 2 weeks after last injection, first thing I notice was asside from the quite severe depression, but the balls were already increasing in size with no PCT drugs needed. Of course recognizing I was in full PCT, I started the drugs and this helped much more. Another sign when you are in full PCT is the nipples will start throwing a fit on you so zero testosterone and high estrogen is the most dangerous time to be without anti-estrogens. Generally though when you are in PCT, your estrogen levels are also on the decline even though it takes longer for your estrogen to decline then testosterone, clomid did a fine job of getting rid of nipple sensativity for me.

Now I am 3 weeks on PCT, I am so **** blue balled... cum load production is so high as a result of the clomid and tongkat/tribulus I am taking. I feel like I am going to burst open if I dont get some attention from the wife soon... she supposed to soon and she dont know it but there is going to be some hardcore sex going on soon after she gets here, hehehe.

[Ntpadude]

Speaking from expiriance i always run Clomid at 50mg all the way through out the cycle, from day 1 of the cycle to 6 weeks after the cycle end, and i can tell you that my nuts do not shrink nearly as much as they do when i don't take clomid, i do believe it stimulates my HTPA and i am still producting my own natural test even while on gear, it is reduced but i know i am not totaly shut down and that is important to me, and second i do not crush after the cycle, my own natural production recovers much quicker and i feel "Normal" much quicker if i use the Clomid...this from practical first hand feedback of "ME", that's what it does to me and really it is not that expensive to run Clomid all the way through, i feel the added benifit is worth the extra $$$...XXL

Completely agree with everything you said. I might add to this that the clomid as a "base" anti-e all thru the cycle also can dramatically improve blood pressure and lipid profiles. I found with me, clomid is plenty and gets rid of nipple sensativity as well as anything. A lot of people are using some very hard drugs for anti-e's when for probably 90% of us, Clomid does the best job and this type of program gives the best PCT recoveries and gains kept.

[Lunacy]

bump...good post

[jason3500]

Would it be ok to then to run Nolva 10mg ED, Arimidex 0,25 ED and 50mg Clomid ED through cycle?