Quote by AR-R promoter (Lion) - is this true?

**Georgie** · 09-22-2004, 09:14 PM

This is a quote by Lion an offical AR-R promoter from the thread: Tamoxifen Citrate is Nolvadex ....For your PCT

"A very rare but all the more serious problem of Nolvadex is that in some cases it does not lower the estrogen level but can increase it. Another disadvantage is that it can weaken the anabolic effect of some steroids . The reason is that Nolvadex, as we know, reduces the estrogen level. The fact is, however, that certain steroids -especially the various testosterone compounds-can only achieve their full effect if the estrogen level is sufficiently high. Those who are used to the intake of larger amounts of various steroids do not have to worry about this. Athletes however, who predominantly use mild steroids such as Primobolan , Winstrol , Oxandrolone, and Deca -Durabolin should carefully consider whether or not they should take Nolvadex since, due to the compound's already moderate ana-bolic effect, an additional loss of effect could take place, leading to unsatisfying results."

Question:

1) My question is, is this true? Why would Nolva weaken the effect of steroids? In order to be effective why would testosterone need high levels of estrogen in the body? And as far as Winsrtol goes, winstrol does not even aromatize into estrogen. Why in the world would nolva affect the strength of winstrol. Why would an athlete who is using "mild" steroids (such as winstrol) carefully consider whether or not they should take nolvadex. IMO, Estrogen-wise nolva could not have any effect on winstrol. This does not make an ounce of sense to me. I'm not knocking this guy by any means, what so ever. In fact I will be making a purchase from AR-R very soon. I am just asking for some clarification please, because I think the information may be wrong.

Question:

2) Does anyone know if nolva needs to be taken PCT along with clomid after a last shot of test propinate? I take nolva during a prop and winstrol cycle, but I'm not sure if it is a waste to continue taking it post cycle. My theory is that since prop has such a short ester, its in an out of your system so quickly, estrogen is not building up in large amounts in your body AFTER the last shot. I would think that a short while after the last shot no estrogen what so ever would be builing in your system, so taking nolva PCT would be a waste? Does anyone know if I am correct in my thinking? For example, if you were taking cyp, after your last shot the steroid is still active in your body for many weeks, and is slowly converting into estrogen. So it is necessary to keep taking nolva for weeks after the last shot. But with prop I don't think this is the case. I would think after a short time after your last shot there would be no test in your system to convert to estrogen so nolva is unneeded. And since you would be taking clomid (which has a mild effect on estrogen) PCT anyways, i think it would be a waste to keep taking nolva. Am I right?

**Demon Deacon** · 09-22-2004, 09:16 PM

its debatable

**Georgie** · 09-22-2004, 09:21 PM

What's debatable? The winstrol issue is not debatable. Winstrol does not aromatize into estrogen. So i know that part has got to be incorrect. I don't think there is anyway nolva could affect the strength of winstrol (estrogen wise, as the quote says), i may be wrong, but i don't think so.

Also anyone with any ideas on the propinate issue?

**Money Boss Hustla** · 09-22-2004, 09:22 PM

I don't believe it. Nolvadex stops the binding of estrogen to receptors in the breast. Arimidex , etc. blocks the conversion to estrogen. These are the ones that can inhibit the results of your cycle not Nolvadex.

**Demon Deacon** · 09-22-2004, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Georgie

What's debatable? The winstrol issue is not debatable. Winstrol does not aromatize into estrogen. So i know that part has got to be incorrect. I don't think there is anyway nolva could affect the strength of winstrol (estrogen wise, as the quote says), i may be wrong, but i don't think so.

Also anyone with any ideas on the propinate issue?

The whole if theres not enough estrogen in the body then your gains wont be as good issue.

**Money Boss Hustla** · 09-22-2004, 09:24 PM

Test is test. If you're prone to it...it can give you gyno. You wouldn't be taking the Nolvadex for the winstrol ...you would be taking for the test.

**Gilster** · 09-22-2004, 09:29 PM

You want to know what the real problem with taking nolva or any other anti-e or e-blocker with winny? Winny is HORRIBLE on your lipid profile and estrogen is a regulator on the positive side for your lipids. Whenever you take "anti-e's" alone they will mess up your profile. Nolva has the more mild negative affect over the stronger ones like letrozole , and arimidex . If you take winny and any "ant-e" you will have made your lipid profile border on the dangerous side, and blood work would scare the doc.

**Georgie** · 09-22-2004, 09:31 PM

I realize you would not be taking nolva for winstrol . However, most people would be taking test with their winstrol, and therefore would be taking nolva. The quote states that nolva would have a weaking effect on the test, but an even more weaking effect on the winstrol, since winstrol is only moderately anabolic . I just don't think this could be true because winstrol doesn't convert to estrogen in the first place (and therefore nolva should have no effect on it, but the quote says it will). But if it is true what is the scientific basis for it?

and any idea's about the prop question?

**Money Boss Hustla** · 09-22-2004, 09:33 PM

Bro...your theory does not hold validity. Test is test! It will convert regardless of the ester. I find the faster esters are worse for my nipples.

**Demon Deacon** · 09-22-2004, 09:34 PM

Nolva wont have any effect on your steroids effectiveness.. There its settled. And no its not a waste in pct take it at 20mg ed

**Georgie** · 09-22-2004, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Money Boss Hustla

Bro...your theory does not hold validity. Test is test! It will convert regardless of the ester. I find the faster esters are worse for my nipples.

I don't think you understand what i am getting at. Yes, i know the test prop is going to convert into estrogen regardless of the ester. What I am asking is: since the ester of prop is so short, after your last shot will estrogen still be building up in your body? Say you are shooting test cyp, after your last shot the steroid is still active in your body for a few weeks. That test will eventaully convert into estrogen so you need to keep taking nolva for a couple weeks after your last shot. But since prop is in and out of your system basically in the next few days, do you need to keep taking nolva, or is it a waste, because within a few days of your last shot there is no test in your body so therefore there is nothing to convert into estrogen. And since you will be taking clomid anyways PCT (which has an effect on estrogen), maybe nolva is uneeded PCT with propinate?

**Anhydro78** · 09-22-2004, 09:45 PM

I think the only difference in weight gains will be that if you keep your estrogen levels lowered you will not gain as much weight but the weight you wont gain will mostly be fat.

**billy_ba** · 09-22-2004, 09:50 PM

You wont gain as much weight with the anti e's however it would only be water weight that you would lose at the end anyways so dont worry about it. I would rather gain 10 solid lbs than gain 25 but keep 10. Also your body needs estrogen, just not some huge ammount

**Money Boss Hustla** · 09-23-2004, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Georgie

I don't think you understand what i am getting at. Yes, i know the test prop is going to convert into estrogen regardless of the ester. What I am asking is: since the ester of prop is so short, after your last shot will estrogen still be building up in your body? Say you are shooting test cyp, after your last shot the steroid is still active in your body for a few weeks. That test will eventaully convert into estrogen so you need to keep taking nolva for a couple weeks after your last shot. But since prop is in and out of your system basically in the next few days, do you need to keep taking nolva, or is it a waste, because within a few days of your last shot there is no test in your body so therefore there is nothing to convert into estrogen. And since you will be taking clomid anyways PCT (which has an effect on estrogen), maybe nolva is uneeded PCT with propinate?

Naturally or unnaturally...your body will have estrogen in it. When you inject exogenous testosterone into your body...your body stops naturally producing it. So when you stop the injections (therefore removing testosterone)…the only hormone left in your body is estrogen. My nipples always hurt the most when coming off a cycle. That’s why getting your balls functioning as quickly as possible with PCT is important. So YES you should take Nolvadex all the way until your PCT is done. Why risk getting a lump under your nipple. Nolvadex is cheap enough to use the entire time. You start the test prop PCT 3 days after your last injection…why not just use Nolvadex and be sure?

I would highly recommend Pheedno’s PCT:
http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=94626