Growth Hormone opinions

[Canes4Ever]

bump for more discussion

[cooksbrut]

love learning about it.... please keep it coming

[Ajax]

Thanks for the bump Canes!

I am 40 and I think HGH might be something that I might consider in the near future, not so much for mass gains, but to help get rid of some chronic fat deposits and to tighten up skin that was stretched out by years of being a 'chubby'.

I see prices for 'kits' be bandied about, but nobody seems to mention how many IU's in a kit--or if there are kits of different sizes. (I can buy 4 IU packs, is that a kit? I have hear of 15 IU and 126 IU kits. Which ones are we talking about here?)

Keep this thread alive!

[ironmaster]

OMG, Ajax...you old fart....welcome to the AARP. You will like hGH. It's ideal for guys like us that are 40+ (in my case, 40 is only a distant memory). As our natural production declines, our capacity for exercise declines, we develop fat accumulations around the waist area, our bones become porous, connective tissue becomes thin and stiff leading to joint pain and tendonitis....even middle-age depression is linked to declining GH production. Supplementing with as little as 2iu a day will restore you to the levels you had in your 20's. 4iu plus, and you will be astonished.
Regarding the difference in sizes.......the 126iu kit is made by Serono and is aimed at the AID's market. It contains seven vials of GH at 6mg. each, which reconstitute to 18iu's each. This has traditionally been the best value in the black market. Lately, availability has been down and price up.
The 15iu is Saizen, also made by Serono. This is aimed at the HRT market.
4iu vials.......sounds like chinese to me. You would need a whole bunch of these or of the Saizen 15iu considering that a proper cycle requires 378iu's.

[the quest aka ef]

all this gh talk is making me more and more motivated to use it asap. I had the post on bridging with gh I plan on using it at the end of my cycle with no aas for 10 weeks followed by a cycle with continuing gh. the problem is I don't want to use insulin with it, but I will while on cycle not during my bridge because I feel that my knowlege isn't ready for it yet.
i have one question for ironmaster and other's I am young almost 23 and I know I should wait to use gh but fuck it. I heard ironmaster say that young guys benifit more because our natural gh is already high. i thought using gh will shut down your natural gh production just like any steroids will shut natural test levels? my main concern is since i'm young and planing a 16 week cycle of gh will my gh level return to normal after I stop using gh? or will they be permently lower? and also I never heard anything like clomids for gh production, but how long does the avarage male bounce back to normal gh level?

[ironmaster]

Exogenous GH only suppresses natural production for a few hours, unlike steroids .
I didn't say that young people benefit more, just the opposite in fact....but you need less, which is a good thing.

[Canes4Ever]

Ironmaster, would a steroid novice, such as myself, who is nearly 42, and thinking of doing his 1st cycle soon, stack GH with test-enanthate ? I have never done anything before, I am completely natural and seem to have lost my ability to make gains.

Would I still need to end the cycle with clomid ? It's probably going to be a light cycle.

Sorry to ask such a dumb question but as I say I am very much the novice at this.

Thanks for any help you can give me, and Ironmaster, I would like to invite you to participate in the Over 30 Forum, would be great to have your voice and advice over there.

[Canes4Ever]

bump for a VET or MOD to answer

[androplex]

In a study of hGH therapy for adults here are the side effects:

115 adults, 6 months applied therapy

37.4% developed edema (serous fuild in the tissues)
19.1 % developed arthralgia ( (neuralgic pain in joint)
15.7 % myalgia ((muscular rheumatism)
7.8% paresthesias (impaired skin sensation)
1.7% carpal tunnel.

These symptoms most commonly occurred at the outset of therapy and most resolved within 1 to 2 months while therapy was continued.

I am only 5 weeks in to my 6 month therapy. I use 8 iu a week. Thats .44 mg per day

Hope this was helpful.....

Products approved in the US

Protropin by Genentech
Nutropin AQ and Nutropin by Genentech
Humatrope Eli Lilly
Norditropin Novo Nordisk
Genotropin Pharmacia and Upjohn
Saizen Serono
Serostim Serono


Last edited by androplex on 04-27-2002 at 09:14 PM

[Canes4Ever]

Originally posted by androplex
In a study of hGH therapy for adults here are the side effects:

115 adults, 6 months applied therapy

37.4% developed edema (serous fuild in the tissues)

Last edited by androplex on 04-27-2002 at 09:14 PM

Over 1/3 of the subjects had Edema ???? Damn that is so high I can't believe that the FDA would still approve the medicine. That seems incredible. Not doubting you, just sounds WILD !

[androplex]

Canes:

I thought it was high to. Also most of these sympt went away in 1 to 2 months with continued use of hGH. I dont know how bad serous fluid is. May just be water build in muscle and be no big deal.

BTW you know TNT would say that if something has a 1% chance and you get it then its 100% well SHIT, I am having pain in the inner side of both my elbows now, with tingle in my pinkies. Am I part of that 1.7 %? SHIT!!!!

I am not sure if this pain is due to using wrist straps. My trainer thinks so but its just a guess. I am going to ask my doc on monday.

You know if I had 100 girls to choose from and one of them had AIDs I would pick her. WTF.........



Yeah, I know stop being so hard on myself. I am trying but its not easy. I am feeling about the same with regard to my valley effect. I did not inject hGH or test today. I was to inject test today but TNT says to wait till after monday's blood draw.

Later.

[Canes4Ever]

Originally posted by androplex
Canes:

I thought it was high to. Also most of these sympt went away in 1 to 2 months with continued use of hGH. I dont know how bad serous fluid is. May just be water build in muscle and be no big deal.

BTW you know TNT would say that if something has a 1% chance and you get it then its 100% well SHIT, I am having pain in the inner side of both my elbows now, with tingle in my pinkies. Am I part of that 1.7 %? SHIT!!!!

I am not sure if this pain is due to using wrist straps. My trainer thinks so but its just a guess. I am going to ask my doc on monday.

You know if I had 100 girls to choose from and one of them had AIDs I would pick her. WTF.........



Yeah, I know stop being so hard on myself. I am trying but its not easy. I am feeling about the same with regard to my valley effect. I did not inject hGH or test today. I was to inject test today but TNT says to wait till after monday's blood draw.

Later.

Hey bro, I hear ya. Don't be down, I am here and you have the phone numbers just give me a ring if ya need to chit-chat.

I too would go a little lighter on the weights and lay off the straps, see if that doens't make a difference. I too used to get tingly effects when using straps on my deadlifts. I got rid of the straps and my hands were okay after that. Might be worth a try.

Keep your head up buddy, love ya bro !

peace

[ironmaster]

Sorry, was out of town......andro, what was the date of that study and which journal? All the recent ones in J. App. Phys. and Endo find that less than 10% of subjects reported one or more of side effects similar to those you listed. In fact, a significant number of those receiving placebo injections also reported similar side effects. Less than 10% had water retention.

Of course, the research in the area of hGH is a joke....They don't agree on much of anything, they don't study the things we are interested in, they use flawed methods, crazy doses.....hell the studies done for Olympic athletes in the 50's and 60's are more relevant. The one this sounds like used a dose of 12iu a day!.......in normal, non-deficient patients. I bet they held water!

Canes......yes, use the clomid if you have test in there. You are at a good age to experience some impressive gains, cause your levels of everything are dropping, and you have lots of training experience. I know exactly what you mean......I had layed off steroids for quite a while, but continued to train hard. Then, at about your age, I hit the wall.....no strength gains and no more mass gains. In fact, I started getting a gut out of nowhere......that's declining GH production. I was down right amazed at the results from steroids and GH.

[Canes4Ever]

Originally posted by ironmaster
Canes......yes, use the clomid if you have test in there. You are at a good age to experience some impressive gains, cause your levels of everything are dropping, and you have lots of training experience. I know exactly what you mean......I had layed off steroids for quite a while, but continued to train hard. Then, at about your age, I hit the wall.....no strength gains and no more mass gains. In fact, I started getting a gut out of nowhere......that's declining GH production. I was down right amazed at the results from steroids and GH.

Thanks Ironmaster, I have had some 2nd thoughts about doing 400mgs though on my cycle. I may run it and the hGH longer, like 100-200mgs a week and for 16 weeks.

Would this be better or worse to run the test enanthate longer at a lower dosage ?

[DiMensionX]

Great information guys, thanks for the information:-).

DMX

[Farmer]

Originally posted by TheMan


GH reduces insulin sensitivity and in the severest of forms can cause type II diabetes. That's the purpose of running slin concurrently with GH. You can have all the gear in the world coursing through your blood stream, but if you can't get the nutrients into your cells via the insulin signaling/transport system then you can't very well grow(or loose fat).

I am new to all this but the slin (insulin ) you are referring to would be the same stuff a diabetic would be injecting correct?

peace

[ironmaster]

Yes, it's the same insulin that diabetics use. BB'ers tend to use the faster insulins because it is easier to manage nutrient intake.....I prefer Humalog or Humulin-r.
Canes, I wouldn't consider using less than 500mg. of test a week. For best results, one should also use an oral like dbol to stimulate IGF release, and light insulin to counter the down regulation of insulin sensitivity.....GH is expensive, you want to get the most out of it.
Dad6, sure, 6iu is way better than nothing. The standard HRT Rx is .75iu per day, so you would be right on. I like a bigger dose, but it comes down to what you can afford.

[PURE ADRENALINE]

I feel GH is not usefull in short use.
Most of the info i have found seems to point to longer use of GH for both bulk and cutting.

Persoanlly I am 29 and will be running it 6 months every year for the next several yaers at 6IU per day and may increase when i hit closer to 35-40....JMO

[palme]

Whats the price for GH were you live?

I can only get my hands on stolen GH from companys like Pharmacia and the price is $100/amp...

[goldenFloyd]

Canes, I can't wait to see your transformation pics after a good cycle of GH, dbol , and test. You'll be a new person, you better post pics!!!!!!

[Iron horse]

Originally posted by PURE ADRENALINE

Persoanlly I am 29 and will be running it 6 months every year for the next several yaers at 6IU per day and may increase when i hit closer to 35-40....JMO

that seems a bit nuts! why not take it forever at 3IU a day if your doing that?

what are your stats? are you going pro?

[ironmaster]

dad6, you are starting to see the benefits of even light HrGH supplementation. This pic of my forearm shows the body composition results from long-term GH use:

[ironmaster]

Thanks Pete. Diet? Hell, I drink beer, eat burgers, pizza, icecream...pretty much whatever.....my metabolism is fast from many years of training, and GH works wonders at keeping a guy lean who still wants to enjoy food. Keep at it and you will be the same.

[ironfist]

I dug this up in a search for info on humalog...Damn good thread...

ironmaster, what's your dosing schedule for the gh/slin?

How long can you run GH before you need a break?

How about the slin? Is there a max amount of time that it should be ran? I take it by your pictures that you can cut up while on slin?

[androplex]

my doc told me he wants me taking hgh at higher amounts until my igf-1 level gets to 360. Then he will tapper me back and I can run a maintenance dose to keep level at 360 for as long as I want.

[ironmaster]

Ironfist.....check my PM on these questions. Hell yes you can get ripped while using insulin .
Androplex........ask your doc about this : When examining the GH/IGF-1 axis, a few things should be considered. With strong feedback mechanisms in place, it's difficult to maintain consistently high levels of GH without constant exogenous dosing. And that's a hassle. In addition, just like with insulin, there may be something known as GH insensitivity (Grinspoon 1998). It appears that with chronically high levels of GH, liver and peripheral conversions of GH to IGF-1 are decreased. So even with the constant use of exogenous GH, the body may simply try to regulate itself and the actions of GH by preventing the availability of what is thought to be GH's partner, IGF-1.
This is one of the 3 defense mechanisms the body employs for what it senses to be higher than normal GH levels. And IGF-1 is necessary to promote anabolism and stimulate lipolysis (Ney 1999). I always use an oral steroid to stimulate the release of IGF-1 on the first pass through the liver.

[ironfist]

Ironmaster- You're a wealth of knowledge and a great asset to the board...I appreciate all the questions and pm's you've helped me with...

[DiMensionX]

Bump for a great thread!

DMX

[mike2112]

I'm gonna run it at 4-6iu/day for 6 months with slin,t3,winny,trenb,test and eq for a bulking cycle....I just can't wait !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ari]

I did a cycle on HGH - 2iu - 4 days per week for a month, then I increased it to 4 IU for an other month and went back to 2 IU for the 3d month as I had horrible water retention. I took it together with clen and T3. I'm 5.8, 48 years old and trained for more than 17 years.
I had started putting some strange fat around my waist after 45. At 45 I was very ripped - not very big muscles, but got comments - "she looks like a transvestite, mutant ...", you know the sh#.... I was 121 pound only! After then I started putting this awful fat and couldn't build more muscle, although I trained as hard as before. I also started getting flues, allergies and my doctor thought that the mental stress and physical stress is causing my immune system to drop. I have a very stressful job and when I have problems I like to hit the weights harder.
Here is how I look after my cycle. I'm now 130 pounds. My body fat is around 15 %.
I'm still taking 1.5 IU 6 times per week, and feel my best. I lost the little fat I had. My recovery is great and faster. My strengnt increased unbelievably. I stopped getting this awful soreness I used to get after 40. I'll stay on HGH as long as I can afford it, it's great. I use Norditropin 4 IU set.

[Craig Leonard]

Hi guys im new to the board, i also live australia so things here are a little slow on the information dept.
I will give you some stats so you know who i am.
Age - 30 years
Height - 6foot 1inch
Weight - 112 Kg = 246pd
Body fat 25% (not good)
Training life 13 years

Ther is a lot of talk about HGH, BUT NOT VERY MUCH ABOUT IGF 1 LR3
I would love to know any information on this product and what to stack it with. and yes i have read the infomation page.

[03733+$]

I got this from King Samson!
Just thought I would add this, It was a big help for me!


GROWTH HORMONE MANUAL
=====================


this is an article on GH. It takes all the advice from the top vets on GH and
has been
thoroughly checked and also provides citings so u can look at the info and
studies
yourself if u want. this was made to benefit all who are looking into starting
GH
or need basic info on it. I am not trying to take credit for it since most of
the
ideas in here are either common knowledge.


Growth Hormone
Rating: (1 being the lowest, 5 being the highest)

Strength-4
Weight Gain-4
Fat Loss-4
Side Effects-2
Keep Gains--4

Side Effects:
Hypoglycemia- due to lowered insulin levels.
Acromegalia- (abnormal bone growth) GH does not cause it, but if you are
predisposed
to it, it will speed it up.
GH gut- if predisposed and taking large doses of GH
Carpel Tunnel Syndrome
Soreness in Joints

Benefits of GH:
New Muscle Cells
Mood Enhancement
Smoothing and improving the skin
Leanness, it is a potent fat burner
Joint and ligament strengthening

Where to Inject, How, and How to Make:
You can site inject anywhere you can reach the subcutaneous layer. Pinch the
flesh
and pull back, then insert the needle in the "pocket" underneath. Doesn't absorb
quick enough if you inject into the adipose tissue. Do not inject
intra-muscular,
though it can be done, it is not recommended. GH is a site injection, where it
is
shot is where it will burn the most noticeable fat. Most people do it in the
stomach
since that is a typical sub q shot with most of the fat being in that area. GH
should
be kept in a fridge; freezing will destroy the GH. On your kit it probably says
to
use the kit in 18-24 hours, remember these are for AIDS patients, not
bodybuilders
or athletes. Mixing the GH can either be done with sterile water or bacteriostic
water.
The kit with water will be fine for 3 days in the fridge, even with the sterile
water,
but you should not take this chance, rather you should use bacteriostic water
and
play it safe. This will keep it fine for a couple of weeks. When mixing the GH,
let
the water slide down the side as to not pulverize the GH wafer. Do not spray it
directly against the wafer with any force. Before reconstitution and even after
GH
is fragile!!! Also once the water is injected into the bottle gently swirl the
vial
to reconstitute, do not shake or swirl violently!!!!

Conversions:
1 ml = 1 cc -/+
100 units per 1 cc

6 mg = 18iu

1 ml = 18iu

.50 ml = 9iu

.25 ml = 4.5iu

Some people choose to only do it in cc’s but here is how you can do it in
units on a
slin dart

5.5 = 1iu, so 2iu = 11 on a slin dart

Differences Between Kits:
The main difference between kits is how many iu’s they make when
reconstituted.
For example, Serostim re-constitutes to make 126iu, while a Saizen kit.... also
made
by Serono.... makes up 15iu. Another of their kits makes 54iu. It better be way
cheaper
than a Serostim kit! Humatrope is fine, but costs too much. The other main
concern would
be fakes; Lilly is the most often faked one. Some older GH kits do not have
holograms on
them and are legit, but they are usually only less than 100 dollars than new GH
kits
with holograms, and I would rather be assured of the hologram and legitimacy of
the kit.
Best buy currently is Serostim 126 iu kits. These are made for people with
wasting
diseases like AIDs. Many of these patients got infected because they are IV drug
addicts..........they sell the Serostim on the street for drug money.


Dose:

4 to 6 iu ed is sufficient. Most people take it 5 days on 2 days off at their
designated dosage. There is no reason or evidence why you cannot stay on for
various
lengths of time; there is no need to go 5 on 2 off other than cost. Considering
that
our natural production is only .5 to 1.5iu a day, this is still a huge bump for
the
body. Research has shown that the body's natural defense systems render mega
doses of
GH ineffective, anyway. GH does not cause gains in mass...it allows you to put
on a
great deal of lean mass in combination with proper steroid and insulin use. The
user
before taking must know this. One or two kits are not enough, you need at least
3 to
make you happy, GH takes a while to make its effects, but remember they are long
lasting,
what you see is what you keep. It takes 6 to 8 weeks to notice a dramatic change
in
body comp using GH on an ED or 5/2 split. Lighter doses for long periods of time
are
better than large doses for short cycles. Like any other drug, the more you take
the
more the benefits, but likewise also more risks. 4-6 iu is a standard dose but
many
people take more, the most repulsing side effects happen at or beyond 12 iu a
day but
like anything else it depends on your predisposition for it.


How to Stack:
GH is best taken in conjunction with insulin, anabolic steroids , and t3. Insulin
is
extremely effective with GH, as anyone here who has tried it will testify. This
is
because GH injections cause a down regulation of insulin sensitivity in the
body.
GH alone causes little growth of lean mass, however, when combined with insulin
and
steroids (and IGF-1 if you can find it), the results can be down right
remarkable...esp.
in the older bodybuilder. Start light with the humulin...5iu...and work up 1 iu
a day
till you get use to it. 7 to 10iu in the AM and 7 to 10 iu in the late
afternoon, with
split doses of GH is your best bet. When splitting GH/insulin doses, I use
mid-morning
and late afternoon after lifting.... both flat times in our natural GH
production. The
insulin overcomes the insulin-resistance caused by exogenous GH supplementation.
If you
are scared to take insulin thought, then Gh with Test and Glucophage is good. GH
is good
for cutting if used alone. Glucophage allows for improved glucose and amino acid
absorption by the muscle tissue and does it safely. This is what you want. The
half-life
of GH is only 2 hours so spread it out. Avoid bedtime injections since we
produce the
bulk of our own GH in the first two hours of sleep. Since exogenous GH
suppresses this,
you should not take it before bed. For best results, use a 17aa oral during the
cycle to
stimulate the release of natural insulin growth factors. I would run the test
throughout.
GH/insulin/test is the proven synergistic combination.
It is also wise to preload with testosterone before starting GH if you are going
to do
it. You should preload with the amount of time it takes for that testosterone to
kick
in, since most of us take longer acting esters for testosterone you should
usually start
taking the test 2 weeks before GH use. Likewise, you can accommodate it to fit
your
needs; the key is for the test to be kicking in the same time you are starting
to run
your GH. You can cycle you steroids however you want to depending on your goals,
if you
are going for a more massive look than you would run insulin for most of the
cycle and
use high androgens, but if you are looking for additional leanness at the end of
a cycle
you should stop the androgens and run a higher dose of GH or run less androgens.
T3 is
also another substance that should be used during GH cycling since GH lowers
thyroid
hormones. T3 should be used for shorter periods though, because it can
permanently alter
the endocrine system. The magic of GH for men is the ability to gain mass
without fat or
bloating when stacked properly with insulin, and steroids. GH also makes for
amazing
improvements in skin...smoothes wrinkles, burns stubborn spots of adipose
tissue, gives
that paper-thin contest look...and also gives one a real mood lift, a feeling of
well
being.

Major Difference Between GH and Steroids:
Steroids can increase the size of your muscle cells, but cannot I repeat CAN NOT
increase the number of muscle cells in your body, which to start with is
governed by
your genetics. However Growth hormone CAN increase the number of muscle cells in
your
body, which goes beyond genetics.

Half-Life of GH:
Exogenous (injected) GH has a "half-life" of approximately 2 hours . . . a
4-hour period
of activity during which there is a suppression of naturally produced GH.

GH Naturally Produced:
We release the most of our naturally produced GH during the first two hours of
deep
sleep...you may take a little time to adjust.... your body thinks you should be
in bed
when that big influx hits. It is good to take a nap, that’s when you grow
anyway. It
always helps to take naps after workouts and injections everyday.

GH Causing Acromeglia:
Acromeglia is a disease...you either have it or you don't. Supplementing GH will
not
cause it. Persons suffering from acromeglia, like Andre the Giant, lack the
natural
defense mechanisms of the body to regulate the production and effects of GH
secretion
in he pituitary. It is well established in the medical literature that exogenous
GH will
not cause the disease.... of course it would worsen the condition in those who
had it.

GH Gut: Myth or Reality?:

Some researchers claim that any gains in weight experienced by subjects using GH
a
lone was due to growth of internal organs and connective tissue, which could
cause
some problems. Most studies do not agree with this theory and consider "GH gut"
to be
a myth. Some people are allergic to synthetic test, this is something you have
to find
out for yourself. Some people also feel intestinal discomfort from time to time,
if
so take it down to one item at a time to see what is causing you discomfort;
creatine,
glutamine, protein products, orals, and dirty gear have all been known to cause
this,
so find the problem early.

GH and IGF-1:
Perhaps the most relevant effect of IGF-1 is the ability of IGF-1 to increase
protein
synthesis by increasing cellular mRNA formation (mRNA makes protein) as well as
increasing uptake of amino acids. This effect on protein synthesis can lead to
increased lean mass. The research indicates that this effect is dependent on GH
presence as well. So IGF-1 alone does not promote such effects. Nor does GH. It
appears the combination of the two most consistently lead to increased protein
synthesis.

GH and IGF-1 are negative regulators of GH release so an increase in either
(from a
GH injection) reduces the secretion of GH. IGF-1 is very difficult to obtain in
a
useable condition.... it must be handled very gently and have bee kept at a
rather
precise temperature at all times. One can stimulate IGF production through the
use
of an oral steroid during cycle. Dbol , for example, causes a rather extensive
release
of IGF during the first pass through the liver.

The leading studies in this area: (Ney, 1999, Yarasheski, 1994.... Am J. App.
Phys.)
In the Yarasheski study, no increase in lean muscle mass was noticed in the
subjects
using GH alone, but significant gains were found in subjects that supplemented
with
IGF and GH...add in the steroids and look out! Yarasheski studied weight trained
athletes, supplementing one group with GH alone, and one group with GH and IGF.
"So
IGF-1 alone does not promote such effects. (Leanness and increased lean mass)
Nor
does GH. It appears the combination of the two most consistently lead to
increased
protein synthesis." Both seem to negatively downregulate the other over time, so
as
to lead to diminishing returns. Cycling would be in order for that reason. Also
supplementing both is necessary because one or the other alone will suppress the
natural production of the non-supplemented Latest study by Yarashevski - with GH
alone...8 to 12% change in lean body composition. 6% increase in muscle mass.

[ironmaster]

This cracks me up 03733. This "king sampson" post is an 80% word for word "cut and paste" of my posts and discussions with members at the Elite Board. The rest comes from MOD and another fellow. Every now and then it circulates the boards with some new plagarist taking credit.
Check the search over at elite for "death on the field"'s post with the same title.
While there, run a search with "HGH" and "ironmaster" in the search fields. You will find 150 plus threads dealing with all aspects of GH use. A recent thread started by manchild contains tremendous information and research, including awesome contributions from nandi12 and monkeyballs.