Cycle 3 - Prop, Tren, Winny

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11-24-2004, 09:21 AM
seriouslifter

Cycle 3 - Prop, Tren, Winny

Do you think I need HCG for PCT or nolv is just fine. I did hcg and nolva last cycle at the end and that was 500mg sust and 400mg deca. I only used nolv on 1st cycle. Now im doing

Test prop - week 1-10 100mg eod
Tren - week 1-10 75mg eod
Winny - week 5-10 55mg pills ed

I think I might need hcg for this one because Ive heard Tren is hard on you when coming off. I never experienced crashing really coming off cycles. This is my 3rd. HCG is kind of hard right now for me to get what I want, do I really need it or nolv is fine? I am also doing 10mg ed of nolv throughout cycle.

I do every 5 days at the end, 3000, 3000, 2500, 1500.
11-24-2004, 09:30 AM
justincredible

For certain bro. go get some clomid or hcg with this cycle. Nolvas not going to do anything for you except scare gyno away, and with what you're takin, you're not going to have much of a problem with that anyway. DO yourself a favor and get soe clomid/hcg. Click on the flashing banner in the top right of your screen...you might find a solution to your problem there.
11-24-2004, 09:32 AM
spooledup

Nolva has been shown to stimulate HPTA, it's not just for gyno...
11-24-2004, 09:34 AM
seriouslifter

Quote:

Originally Posted by justincredible

For certain bro. go get some clomid or hcg with this cycle. Nolvas not going to do anything for you except scare gyno away, and with what you're takin, you're not going to have much of a problem with that anyway. DO yourself a favor and get soe clomid/hcg. Click on the flashing banner in the top right of your screen...you might find a solution to your problem there.

Why wouldnt I have much of a problem with gyno in this cycle? Test is test and this kicks in faster since short acting ester. Nolv works just as good as clomid. I have read many articles. Nolv is take gyno away and bring tests levels back during pct. I have done nolv 1st cycle pct and it was fine. Kept like 11lbs from 28ish.
11-24-2004, 09:35 AM
seriouslifter

Quote:

Originally Posted by spooledup

Nolva has been shown to stimulate HPTA, it's not just for gyno...

Thank you, see some people know some stuff and some dont know as much as others. Not saying that you dont know anything, justincredible.
11-24-2004, 09:38 AM
BajanBastard

Nolva has been shown to be even more effective at HPTA stimulation than clomid.
11-24-2004, 09:52 AM
psb

Quote:

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

Nolva has been shown to be even more effective at HPTA stimulation than clomid.

just for clarity, is everyone referencing the same william llewelyn article with the two nolva studies done in 1978 and 1980?

i came off tren almost 2 weeks ago (ran 75mg ED for 9 weeks) and im rounding out the last three weeks of test. cant get hcg myself at this moment either. what did your first cycle consist of, and how did the nolva only recovery go?

my first cycle i did M1T for 2 weeks. took me 4 weeks doing nolva only to get back sex drive.
11-24-2004, 10:02 AM
BajanBastard

Quote:

Originally Posted by psb

just for clarity, is everyone referencing the same william llewelyn article with the two nolva studies done in 1978 and 1980?

i came off tren almost 2 weeks ago (ran 75mg ED for 9 weeks) and im rounding out the last three weeks of test. cant get hcg myself at this moment either. what did your first cycle consist of, and how did the nolva only recovery go?

my first cycle i did M1T for 2 weeks. took me 4 weeks doing nolva only to get back sex drive.

My first and only cycle was Trenbolone acetate (fina) and testosterone enan ( ICN) for 6 wks. 10mg nalva. standard PCT 300/100/50.

If i remember correctly HCG should NOT be used with nolva/clomid during a PCT protocol, HCG some how acts to suppress the HPTA duing this time.
11-24-2004, 10:06 AM
psb

right on.

hcg should be used during cycle to keep your boys functional
11-24-2004, 10:20 AM
justincredible

Quote:

Originally Posted by seriouslifter

Thank you, see some people know some stuff and some dont know as much as others. Not saying that you dont know anything, justincredible.

Hey...they're your nuts buddy. If you want to take the gamble that nolva is gonna solve all of your problems then do it. I've done tren A LOT of times and I'll never do it again without the combination of both. That's just me. I like my nuts.
11-24-2004, 10:40 AM
justincredible

Quote:

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

Nolva has been shown to be even more effective at HPTA stimulation than clomid.

"Now IMO, selective estrogen receptor modulators(SERMs) such as Clomiphine and Tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too. Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary, while Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotrophin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:

1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux
occured PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
2. If your running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and L-dex"

taken from Pheednos pct thread.
11-24-2004, 11:40 AM
seriouslifter

So if I want to do HCG, I know test prop is like gone after 3 - 4 days. Should I do HCG the day before last shot? Should I do Nolv at 40mg for 10 days, then 20mg 10 days then 10mg 10 days while doing hcg shots or should I wait until HCG is over in 3 weeks then start the PCT from Nolv? Last cycle I know it takes a few weeks to get sust out so, I did hcg before last shot then that went to 3 weeks and then I started the nolv pct. Test prop is diff since gets out quicker.
11-24-2004, 12:28 PM
diesel578

I would suggest either stretching out your prop or cutting your tren 2 weeks short. Tren shuts you down hard the extra 2 weeks of test will help recover better!
11-24-2004, 12:30 PM
Drummerboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

Nolva has been shown to be even more effective at HPTA stimulation than clomid.

really? doea this make clomid useless?
11-24-2004, 12:32 PM
Drummerboy

Use the HCG during cycle at 500iu E4D until last shot. use nolva throughout the whole cycle at 10mg ED and 20mg ED during PCT with clomid. do not run the HCG longer than the aas, or with the clomid. somebody said that already, im just summing up
11-24-2004, 12:41 PM
billy_ba

make the tren and prop ed injections to keep blood levels consistant and drop the tren 2 wks.
11-24-2004, 01:29 PM
seriouslifter

Quote:

Originally Posted by billy_ba

make the tren and prop ed injections to keep blood levels consistant and drop the tren 2 wks.

Cant drop 2 weeks short for tren. Its mixed in 1 bottle - 100mg prop/75mg tren.
11-24-2004, 01:35 PM
BajanBastard

Why drop the tren 2 weeks out? Once your're shut down, you're shut down. I can someone explain the concept to me? Thanks.
11-24-2004, 01:37 PM
juiceinthehood

b-6 for prolactin level changes from the fina ( fina gyno )
11-24-2004, 01:41 PM
Mesomorphyl

Quote:

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

Why drop the tren 2 weeks out? Once your're shut down, you're shut down. I can someone explain the concept to me? Thanks.

Is it just me or do you need alot of explaining? Are you on tren and throwing a tren fit? Tren can get people agitated... Please don't ask for proof. :lol:
11-24-2004, 01:41 PM
billy_ba

I hear from other peoples experience and my own experience with tren that running test 2 weeks longer will minimize the sides from crashing. My last cycle I didnt really have bad sides until I came off. I stopped test and tren at the same time and got tons of sides.
11-24-2004, 01:45 PM
BajanBastard

B-6 can hinder gains if you can afford it use the bromocriptine or the Cabergoline.
11-24-2004, 01:53 PM
juiceinthehood

Quote:

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

B-6 can hinder gains if you can afford it use the bromocriptine or the Cabergoline.

good point :afro:
11-24-2004, 01:57 PM
BajanBastard

:lol: I see you gots jokes! But i was being serious! Really i thought once you were shut down, you were shut down so how would stoping the tren 2 weeks out help?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

Is it just me or do you need alot of explaining? Are you on tren and throwing a tren fit? Tren can get people agitated... Please don't ask for proof. :lol:
11-24-2004, 02:03 PM
Property of Steroid.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by psb

just for clarity, is everyone referencing the same william llewelyn article with the two nolva studies done in 1978 and 1980?

.

I haven't been able to find the University of Ghent one he always talks about, but the 1978 one is here...and I reference it all the time...basically, it shows that 20mgs of Nolv may be superior to 150mgs of Clomid, due to clomid reducing LHRH:

Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.

Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.
11-24-2004, 02:03 PM
Mesomorphyl

Quote:

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

:lol: I see you gots jokes! But i was being serious! Really i thought once you were shut down, you were shut down so how would stoping the tren 2 weeks out help?

It has to do with the declining prolactin levels through progesterone pathways... I can say One week early for acetate could help just like stopping deca one week earlier than suggested halflife would lead us to believe. From experience I would stop the tren earlier than test; I would use clomid; and big k.l.g. prove b-6 hinders gains.
11-24-2004, 02:10 PM
Property of Steroid.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

It has to do with the declining prolactin levels through progesterone pathways... .

Can you elaborate?
11-24-2004, 02:20 PM
Mesomorphyl

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooker

Can you elaborate?

your the mod you do it. :hello:
11-24-2004, 02:24 PM
BajanBastard

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooker

Can you elaborate?

:p yes please do!

Darn! I can'y find the posted study on the B6 on how it might hinder gains, hey Hooker do you know what i'm talking about?
11-24-2004, 02:25 PM
Property of Steroid.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

your the mod you do it. :hello:

Didn't think so.
11-24-2004, 02:27 PM
BajanBastard

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

your the mod you do it. :hello:

:ban: :dg: j/k Yeah Hooker if you have the time can you please go into detail if he has a point?
11-24-2004, 02:29 PM
Property of Steroid.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

:p yes please do!

Darn! I can'y find the posted study on the B6 on how it might hinder gains, hey Hooker do you know what i'm talking about?

NO...I have no idea what you're talking about either...I never really considered B6 or why it would hinder gains....

But if Mesomorphyl would explain what he was talking about, I may be able to shed some light on the issue at hand...as he explained it "Prolactin ....etc...progesterone pathways....etc...." I have no idea what he's getting at...but I'm reasonably sure that if he explains it, I'll be able to figure it out.

It doesn't seem like even he knows, though... :unsure:
11-24-2004, 02:30 PM
Property of Steroid.com

I have NO IDEA WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT...I suspect he's wrong, or misinformed...but I don't even know where to start. I'd like to help, though....
11-24-2004, 02:34 PM
Mesomorphyl

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooker

NO...I have no idea what you're talking about either...I never really considered B6 or why it would hinder gains....

But if Mesomorphyl would explain what he was talking about, I may be able to shed some light on the issue at hand...as he explained it "Prolactin ....etc...progesterone pathways....etc...." I have no idea what he's getting at...but I'm reasonably sure that if he explains it, I'll be able to figure it out.

It doesn't seem like even he knows, though... :unsure:

:lol: Knows - yes, taking the time to get the research - no. If mods get paid I might consider it. Or you could use that search button and hit recovery fina or recovery deca and copy and paste those threads. I am willing to bet that you could make a sticky out of this one(about prolactin/progesterone and recovery that is)... throw some studies in there and you got this whipped.
11-24-2004, 02:44 PM
Property of Steroid.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

:lol: Knows - yes, taking the time to get the research - no. . .

Please don't post advice which you are unwilling or unable to support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

:If mods get paid I might consider it.

It's the other way around....we do tons of reading, research, and studying, and make tons of well supported posts before we become mods....not if we become mods.
11-24-2004, 03:01 PM
Mesomorphyl

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooker

Please don't post advice which you are unwilling or unable to support.

It's the other way around....we do tons of reading, research, and studying, and make tons of well supported posts before we become mods....not if we become mods.

calm down there killer. :wg:
11-24-2004, 03:03 PM
BajanBastard

TITLE
Modulation of steroid receptor-mediated gene expression by vitamin B6. 70 REFS

AUTHOR
Tully DB; Allgood VE; Cidlowski JA

ORGANIZATION
Department of Physiology, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 27599-7545.

SOURCE
FASEB J 1994 Mar 1; 8 (3): 343-9

LANGUAGE OF ORIGIN
English

ABSTRACT
Gene transcription mediated by steroid hormones has become one of the most extensively characterized model systems for studying the regulation of gene expression in eukaryotic cells. However, specific details of gene regulation by steroid hormones are often complex and may be unique in specific cell types. Diverse regulatory mechanisms leading to either activation or repression of particular genes frequently involve interactions between steroid hormone receptors and other ubiquitous and/or cell-specific transcription factors that act on the complex promoter of the regulated gene. Interplay between steroid receptor-mediated and other signal transduction pathways may also be involved. In addition, recent novel results indicate that moderate variations in the intracellular concentration of pyridoxal 5'-phosphate (PLP), the biologically active form of vitamin B6, can have pronounced modulatory effects on steroid-induced gene expression. Specifically, elevation of intracellular PLP levels leads to decreased transcriptional responses to glucocorticoid, progesterone, androgen, or estrogen hormones. Conversely, cells in a vitamin B6-deficient state exhibit enhanced responsiveness to steroid hormones. One aspect of the mechanism by which these transcriptional modulatory effects of PLP occur has recently been shown to involve interruption of functional interactions between steroid hormone receptors and the nuclear transcription factor NF1. These findings -- that the vitamin B6 nutritional status of cells modulates their capacity to respond to steroid hormones -- impose an additional level of cell-specific control over steroid hormone regulation of gene expression and will serve as the focal point for this review. (AUTHOR)

MJTR: Gene Expression DE. Pyridoxine PD. Receptors, Steroid PH.

MNTR: Animal. Human. In Vitro. Pyridoxal Phosphate PD. Receptors, Glucocorticoid DE. Receptors, Glucocorticoid PH. Receptors, Steroid DE. Support, Non-U.S. Gov't. Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S.. Transcription, Genetic DE. JOURNAL ARTICLE. REVIEW. REVIEW, TUTORIAL

RNUM: 0 (Receptors, Glucocorticoid); 0 (Receptors, Steroid); 54-47-7 (Pyridoxal Phosphate); 65-23-6 (Pyridoxine)

GEOT: UNITED STATES

IDEN: ISSN: 0892-6638. JOURNAL-CODE: FAS. ENTRY-DATE: 940504. NIH-GRANT-NUMBER: DK 32459DKNIDDK. JOURNAL-SUBSET: M X. IM-DATE: 9407.

ACCE: 94192903

Thanks to Mudman.

Not saying B6 is bad and not to take it, that's the same as the "nolva hinders gains" argument. From what i understand cabergoline seems to be the better option.
11-24-2004, 03:06 PM
Mesomorphyl

this is why b-6 is used for progesterone. you should be a mod just like hooker. thanks for posting the supporting documents, that takes time and my hats off to you.