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  1. #1
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    Collagen Synthesis - Connective Tissue Strength

    THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT TOPIC. EVERYONE WHO USES AAS SHOULD BE AWARE OF CONNECTIVE TISSUE AND ITS ROLE IN BODY BUILDING. THIS THREAD IS DEDICATED TO GOOD INFO ON AAS AND ITS EFFECT ON COLLAGEN SYNTHESIS (CONNECTIVE TISSUE PRODUCTION) AND WAYS TO INCREASE AND MAINTAIN IT. DIFFERENT AAS HAVE DIFFERENT EFFECTS ON YOUR CONNECTIVE TISSUE, WHICH IS MADE OF COLLAGEN. THIS IS A MAIN AREA OF INJURY, SO PLEASE ADD USEFULL INFO IF YOU HAVE IT. I WILL UPDATE THIS THREAD WITH INFO THAT I FIND DURING MY RESEARCH. HERE IS THE FIRST ARTICLE IVE FOUND, CONCERNING CERTAIN MINERALS AND COLLAGEN SYNTHESIS :

    Roles for iron and copper in connective tissue biosynthesis
    O'Dell BL.

    Both iron and copper play critical biochemical roles in the post-translational modifications of collagen and elastin. These modifications are essential to the maturation and structural integrity of these proteins. Iron functions in the hydroxylation of specific prolyl and lysyl residues in collagen, a process that must occur before the triple helix can form and be extruded from the cell. Copper functions in the oxidative deamination of specific lysyl residues in the soluble forms of both elastin and collagen. This process is essential for crosslink formation and the structural integrity of these proteins. While there is no evidence that nutritional iron deficiency results in connective tissue pathology, copper deficiency impairs crosslink formation and results in gross pathology of bones, lungs and the cardiovascular system of many animal species.

    PMID: 6118903 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Last edited by Drummerboy; 11-28-2004 at 12:07 AM.

  2. #2
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    To those of you on Deca or any aas that dramatically increases collagen synthesis (tendons, all connective tissue) dont forget to feed yourself a multivitamin at least... the more research i do, the more i find you need certain minerals when your body is trying to keep your tendons strong enough to keep up with muscular hypertrophy (real fast growth) especially when your on something real strong, like tren ... im on a mission to reduce connective tissue damage and accelerate repair, as this often lags behind muscle growth. This imbalance could lead to serious injury, especially on stronger aas, and months out of the gym... im getting a couple more articles ready for this thread, hopefully the info is usefull to all bros...

  3. #3
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    From Anhydro78

    THIS IS A GREAT READ I FOUND IN ANOTHER THREAD... GOOD INFO FOR DIFFERENT AAS AND EFFECTS ON CONNECTIVE TISSUE :

    While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

    Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

    Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

    Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

    You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

    Deca , Equipoise , Anavar , and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

    While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

    To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

    Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

    Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

    Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

    Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

    These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

    Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

    Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

    GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

    Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

    Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.....

  4. #4
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    Anyone who can add info about Trenbolone (Fina) and collagen production would be appreciated... tough time finding info on this...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy
    Anyone who can add info about Trenbolone (Fina) and collagen production would be appreciated... tough time finding info on this...
    Found a little info, on another board :

    It is very difficult to find anything on trenbolone acetate and collagen syntheis, tendon strength, would healing, etc. There are numerous studies with it used on cattle. With an implanted trenbolone/estrogen mix, collagen synthesis dropped slightly. Estrogen has a beneficial effect on collagen so the fact that collagen syn dropped is indicative that trenbolone is derogating the beneficial effects on collagen syn from estrogen. A study done with bovine is by no means conclusive and I will keep my eyes open for anything conclusive. It is difficult to find much on trenbolone because it is considered the most "androgenic " hormone and its sides are a reason why it is not used medically in humans.

  6. #6
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    Alright... a little help here then... If I am using 750mg Test E a week... 75mg Tren /ED... would taking 300mg Deca a week be beneficial for my joints or will the TEST completely wipe out it's ability to increase collegen synthesis? I could get my hands on some EQ maybe and do a low does of that.... is there an oral I could take durring this cycle to increase collagen synthesis? (or does test knock out any possibility of positive effects on collagen synthesis?)

  7. #7
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    very good info bro..nice work

  8. #8
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    Just you guys know I posted that article. I am not taking credit for writing this article on Collagen synthesis.

    There is another issue with connective tissue growth. On being that some of these drugs also increases cross linking integrity of connective tissue. The article posted below is done on rats and Stanzolol. They found that winstrol increases collagen synthesis but decreases cross linking integrity which makes for a weaker tendon.


    Title: Stimulation of collagen synthesis by the anabolic steroid stanozolol .

    Researchers: Falanga V, Greenberg AS, Zhou L, Ochoa SM, Roberts AB, Falabella A, Yamaguchi Y; University of Miami School of Medicine, Department of Dermatology, Miami, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Florida, USA.

    Source: J Invest Dermatol 1998 Dec;111(6):1193-7

    Summary: In this report, we measured the effect of the anabolic steroid stanozolol on cell replication and collagen synthesis in cultures of adult human dermal fibroblasts. Stanozolol (0.625-5 micrograms per ml) had no effect on fibroblast replication and cell viability but enhanced collagen synthesis in a dose-dependent manner. Stanozolol also increased (by 2-fold) the mRNA levels of alpha1 (I) and alpha1 (III) procollagen and, to a similar extent, upregulated transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1) mRNA and peptide levels. There was no stimulation of collagen synthesis by testosterone . The stimulatory effects of stanozolol on collagen synthesis were blocked by a TGF-beta1 anti-sense oligonucleotide, by antibodies to TGF-beta, and in dermal fibroblast cultures derived from TGF-beta-1 knockout mice. We conclude that collagen synthesis is increased by the anabolic steroid stanozolol and that, for the most part, this effect is due to TGF-beta-1. These findings point to a novel mechanism of action of anabolic steroids .


    Note: End of the study, the rest is just some dudes opinion from Meso-RX

    Discussion: I must first acknowledge that the commonly held belief is that anabolic steroids predispose an athlete to tendon rupture. This conclusion is drawn from animal studies showing that some steroids produce a larger, stiffer tendon in rats and that these steroid-induced tendons "fail" before the tendons from the control animals. The term fail refers to the breaking point.

    The interesting thing about the present study is that the steroid stanozolol (Winstrol) had a different effect than testosterone. If you are a regular reader of Meso-Rx you should be well aware that not all steroids act in the same manner. And that because of subtle differences in there molecular structure they are able to elicit different responses. For example, Deca seems to act primarily through the androgen receptor (AR) where as Dianabol has effects beyond those associated with the AR.

    Because synthetic steroids have differ in their chemical properties it should not be surprising that testosterone did not have the same effect as Winstrol. Winstrol increased collagen synthesis as opposed to testosterone which did not in this study. Interpreting the results of this study are more difficult than simply describing them. Other researchers have suggested that steroids cause a rapid increase in protein synthesis within tendon fibroblasts which results in fibroids or fibrous nodules within the tendon (Michna,1988). These fibroids alter the mechanical properties of the tendon perhaps predisposing it to rupture. It is also noted that during short term use of steroids there is an alteration in the alignment of collagen fibers which may also lead to rupture. Interestingly these alterations in collagen metabolism are transient with markers of collagen turnover returning more or less to baseline after 3-4 weeks of steroid administration (Karpakka,1992). These same researchers noted that low dose anabolics effect primarily muscle collagenous tissue with tendon being effected only at higher doses (i.e. 5 times the therapeutic dose) which would more closely represent what is needed by bodybuilders to put on mass.

    The question remains, dose this mean that Winstrol will actually help prevent tendon injury or will it lead to bigger yet stiffer tendons prone to injury? It is difficult to take animal research and extrapolate the results to humans. Stanozolol is used therapeutically in humans to treat a variety of connective tissue and vascular disorders and its clinical effects suggest that it can modulate connective tissue breakdown in people. Despite being labeled as "ineffective" by many bodybuilders it is very popular among athletes. As with most hormones, dosage plays a role in what effects are seen, be they positive or negative. Hopefully future studies will shed light on the therapeutic effects of different steroids on tendons in humans.


    References:

    Michna H Appearance and ultrastructure of intranuclear crystalloids in tendon fibroblasts induced by an anabolic steroid hormone in the mouse. Acta Anat (Basel) 1988;133(3):247-50

    Karpakka JA, Pesola MK, Takala TE. The effects of anabolic steroids on collagen synthesis in rat skeletal muscle and tendon. A preliminary report. Am J Sports Med 1992 May-Jun;20(3):262-6


    Inhofe PD. Grana WA. Egle D. Min KW. Tomasek J. The effects of anabolic steroids on rat tendon. An ultrastructural, biomechanical, and biochemical analysis. American Journal of Sports Medicine. 23(2):227-32, 1995 Mar-Apr.

    Stannard JP. Bucknell AL. Rupture of the triceps tendon associated with steroid injections American Journal of Sports Medicine. 21(3):482-5, 1993 May-Jun.

    Karpakka JA. Pesola MK. Takala TE. The effects of anabolic steroids on collagen synthesis in rat skeletal muscle and tendon. A preliminary report. American Journal of Sports Medicine. 20(3):262-6, 1992 May-Jun.

    Miles JW. Grana WA. Egle D. Min KW. Chitwood J. The effect of anabolic steroids on the biomechanical and histological properties of rat tendon. Journal of Bone & Joint Surgery - American Volume. 74(3):411-22, 1992 Mar.

    Ivanenko TI. Fedotov VP. Almaeva SN. Belen'kii EE. [Use of a biological model of isolated overload of the skeletal muscle for determination of the effect of anabolic steroids]. [Russian] Problemy Endokrinologii. 24(3):108-13, 1978 May-Jun.

    Uzan A. Ducamp-Charpentier C. [Effect of some steroids on incorporation of proline-14C into bone in the castrated rat]. [French] Experientia. 25(10):1024-5, 1969 Oct 15.

  9. #9
    100%NATURAL-theGH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100%NATURAL-theGH
    Alright... a little help here then... If I am using 750mg Test E a week... 75mg Tren/ED... would taking 300mg Deca a week be beneficial for my joints or will the TEST completely wipe out it's ability to increase collegen synthesis? I could get my hands on some EQ maybe and do a low does of that.... is there an oral I could take durring this cycle to increase collagen synthesis? (or does test knock out any possibility of positive effects on collagen synthesis?)
    ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD ABOUT THIS?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anhydro78
    The article posted below is done on rats and Stanzolol.

    Summary: In this report, we measured the effect of the anabolic steroid stanozolol on cell replication and collagen synthesis in cultures of adult human dermal fibroblasts.
    Human as well.

  11. #11
    Anhydro78's Avatar
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    I dont know how sensitive you would be to the Deca /Tren combo 100% Naturalthe GH. It is allways important to use at least one of the listed drugs above to promote connective tissue growth. If you want an oral that stimulates collagen synthesis you can go with Anavar . Since you are taking tren I would suggest a good dose of Equipoise instead of the Deca. Either that or Primobolan .

  12. #12
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    AnHydro... check the title of the third post in this thread... i gave ya props

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100%NATURAL-theGH
    Alright... a little help here then... If I am using 750mg Test E a week... 75mg Tren/ED... would taking 300mg Deca a week be beneficial for my joints or will the TEST completely wipe out it's ability to increase collegen synthesis? I could get my hands on some EQ maybe and do a low does of that.... is there an oral I could take durring this cycle to increase collagen synthesis? (or does test knock out any possibility of positive effects on collagen synthesis?)

    In post # three there is a reference to this... it refers to using a pro-collagen aas as your base... like using deca as the base, and test as a secondary... like 400 deca/week and 150 test/week... check it out, i think it answers your question...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy
    In post # three there is a reference to this... it refers to using a pro-collagen aas as your base... like using deca as the base, and test as a secondary... like 400 deca/week and 150 test/week... check it out, i think it answers your question...
    eh deca 400 isnt the greatest idea for a base lol. id try something more along the lines of:
    250mg test, 100mg deca, 200mg eq.

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    The post above was not from Anhydro78...it's author is "Animal Mass"...I'm talking about the post above on Collagen Synthesis annd AAS which is, was, and will always be total B.S. I'd remove it from this thread, DrummerBoy...it's been pretty much dismissed as certified B.S.

  16. #16
    Drummerboy's Avatar
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    Heres something on vitamin C and Collagen :


    Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid)

    Definition
    Most animal and plant species do not need to consume Vitamin C in their diet as they are able to produce sufficient quantities naturally. Humans and guinea pigs are the only animals that can not produce Vitamin C naturally and thus must consume it.

    Food sources
    Vitamin C is found in many foods, including citrus fruits, green vegetables, berries, and organ meats.

    Functions
    Vitamin C is critical to electron transport, collagen synthesis, and various metabolic processes.

    Recommendations
    Recommended daily allowances (RDAs) are defined as the levels of intake of essential nutrients that, on the basis of scientific knowledge, the Food and Nutrition Board judges to be adequate to meet the known nutrient needs of practically all healthy persons.
    The best way to get the daily requirement of essential vitamins is to eat a balanced diet that contains a variety of foods from the food guide pyramid.

    Side effects
    The deficiency of Vitamin C produces connective tissue disorders, impaired wound healing, bleeding gums, and other serious symptoms. The deficiency of Vitamin C is called scurvy, the bane of sailors for hundreds of years. Unlike other vitamins, marginal Vitamin C deficiency is somewhat better characterized. It may produce fatigue, muscle weakness, and impaired wound healing.

  17. #17
    100%NATURAL-theGH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy
    In post # three there is a reference to this... it refers to using a pro-collagen aas as your base... like using deca as the base, and test as a secondary... like 400 deca/week and 150 test/week... check it out, i think it answers your question...
    Alright... I read that... now assuming you don't like the way high levels of Deca make you feel without higher levels of test... (lathargic and depressed) and you want to run HIGH levels of test... is there A BENEFIT to running low doses of Deca or EQ? or does the test completely knock out any positive effect it has on collagen synthesis? Anybody have any real knowledge on this? or are we all in the dark age and guessing?

  18. #18
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    I wasnt trying to take credit for that post in any way. Hooker... I wrote that in my post and Pm'ed Drummer telling him I didnt write the article.

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    No...I know...I thought he took that from a different thread, anyway...B8K reposted it not too long ago also...

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  21. #21
    Drummerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100%NATURAL-theGH
    Alright... I read that... now assuming you don't like the way high levels of Deca make you feel without higher levels of test... (lathargic and depressed) and you want to run HIGH levels of test... is there A BENEFIT to running low doses of Deca or EQ? or does the test completely knock out any positive effect it has on collagen synthesis? Anybody have any real knowledge on this? or are we all in the dark age and guessing?
    this is a good question that is beyond me right now... ill look into it, and if anyone can help, please do!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anhydro78
    I wasnt trying to take credit for that post in any way. Hooker... I wrote that in my post and Pm'ed Drummer telling him I didnt write the article.
    AnHydro didnt claim to write the article, he did PM me that. Just did what a good bro would do and forwarded seemingly beneficial info... im glad im getting a response on this topic, as i would like some str8, backed up answers! Thanks for the input Hooker... doin my best to find useful info! By the way, that Animal Mass Article is on a LOT of boards!

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    I don't think anyone really knows. I think that adding Deca in @ 300mg a week should have a positive effect on my collagen synthesis even while running 750mg Test E e/w and 75mg Tren e/d. Anyone object to this???? I would really rather have some anavar but I don't have any... don't have a source for it unless I want to drive down South... and I'm semi broke... what do you think.. would it be worth the effort to get some anavar over the deca???

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    By the way, that Animal Mass Article is on a LOT of boards!

    That Animal Mass article is on alot of boards where nobody did any fact checking....no offense, but the people who re-post articles without checking their facts are almost as bad as the people who write unfounded articles.

    There are so many bad articles on the net...I'm trying my best to get rid of alot of them (the clen handbook, the animal mass one, etc...) but usually that requires writing something to replace them...

    I'm working on it, but it's taking awhile.

  25. #25
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    Found this article using PubMed :

    Int J Sports Med. 2000 Aug;21(6):406-11. Related Articles, Links


    The effect of supraphysiological doses of anabolic androgenic steroids on collagen metabolism.

    Parssinen M, Karila T, Kovanen V, Seppala T.

    National Public Health Institute, Laboratory of Substance Abuse, Helsinki, Finland. miia.parssinen@ktl.fi

    We examined the effect of supraphysiological doses of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) on collagen metabolism and whether the changes reflect the alterations in muscle, bone, and tendon collagen metabolism, possibly in a tissue-specific manner. Serum carboxyterminal propeptide of type I procollagen (PICP), carboxyterminal telopeptide of type I collagen (ICTP), aminoterminal propeptide of type III procollagen (PIIINP), urine hydroxylysylpyridinoline (HP), and lysylpyridinoline (LP) as well as urine creatinine were determined from 17 men abusing AAS. Measurements were made twice during the intake of AAS and twice during the subsequent withdrawal period. When the volunteers were on steroids, their serum PIIINP concentrations and urine HP/LP ratio were significantly higher and their serum ICTP concentrations were significantly lower than during the withdrawal period (p < 0.05). Serum PIIINP correlated with total cumulative doses of injectable intramuscular steroids, and serum ICTP correlated with the duration of the steroid intake period (p<0.05). The results suggest that high doses of AAS decrease the degradation and seem to increase the synthesis of type I collagen. Furthermore, high doses of AAS are suggested to enhance soft tissue collagen metabolism on the basis of increased type III collagen synthesis and elevated HP/LP ratio during the steroid administration period. Although the tissue-specific turnover of collagen of soft connective tissues remains unknown, the turnover of bone collagen seems not to change following the use of high doses of AAS, at least within the time interval of the present study.

    PMID: 10961515 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Not specific, but good info...

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    Now you need to look up and read the full article and not just the abstract, to get the specifics. You started a difficult thread...

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    no doubt... a tough one

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    Quote Originally Posted by 100%NATURAL-theGH
    I don't think anyone really knows. I think that adding Deca in @ 300mg a week should have a positive effect on my collagen synthesis even while running 750mg Test E e/w and 75mg Tren e/d. Anyone object to this???? I would really rather have some anavar but I don't have any... don't have a source for it unless I want to drive down South... and I'm semi broke... what do you think.. would it be worth the effort to get some anavar over the deca???
    Cough! Cough!... somebody?

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    Bump

  30. #30
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    bump

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    Bump? Did you do any additional research?

  32. #32
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    i keep finding the same results... maybe you can point me in a good direction for medical research? Im running loops....

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    Go to www.*****************.com and look in the Edu forum, for a sticky thread called "Some useful researching links" originally posted by YellowJacket (I think)...you'll find around 25-35 links to medical and other websites for your research.

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    The more i read, the more i see that GH is the best for helping tendons grow strong quickly... I hope this is right! I think deca /var is my second choice...

  35. #35
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    I dunno about this method, but causing controlled inflamation in order to heal tendon and ligament damage? Its called Prolotherapy and has beed around forever i guess...

    http://www.swbmd.com/Prolotherapy.htm

  36. #36
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    I'm somewhat confused, so what hooker is saying is all this research is BS? All that deca improves it by 300% and what not...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy
    THIS IS A GREAT READ I FOUND IN ANOTHER THREAD... GOOD INFO FOR DIFFERENT AAS AND EFFECTS ON CONNECTIVE TISSUE :
    Last edited by Slic4788; 08-03-2005 at 01:13 AM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy
    Copper functions in the oxidative deamination of specific lysyl residues in the soluble forms of both elastin and collagen. This process is essential for crosslink formation and the structural integrity of these proteins. While there is no evidence that nutritional iron deficiency results in connective tissue pathology, copper deficiency impairs crosslink formation and results in gross pathology of bones, lungs and the cardiovascular system of many animal species.

    PMID: 6118903 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    I want to point to supplemental zinc (usually ZMA) use. The lack of adequate copper intake (1 part per 15 of zinc) could cause a copper deficiency, whose effect on tendons is pretty clear.
    Men basically never experience iron deficiency, unless they are anemic.

  38. #38
    Drummerboy's Avatar
    Drummerboy is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slic4788
    I'm somewhat confused, so what hooker is saying is all this research is BS? All that deca improves it by 300% and what not...?
    what hooker was saying was that post from AnimalMass cannot be totally trusted. This is why i kept looking for other proof, like vitamins and minerals. Not all the info in this thread is useless. Im sure animalmass has his points, but likely not all correct.

  39. #39
    Drummerboy's Avatar
    Drummerboy is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syr
    I want to point to supplemental zinc (usually ZMA) use. The lack of adequate copper intake (1 part per 15 of zinc) could cause a copper deficiency, whose effect on tendons is pretty clear.
    Men basically never experience iron deficiency, unless they are anemic.
    can you post a link to where you found that our please? It its solid its good info.

  40. #40
    TallMan is offline Associate Member
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    @Hooker

    I read that you think AnimalMass' post is b.s. but is it ALL b.s. or some part ?

    I'm doubting if I should use deca or boldenon in my recovery cycle
    so I was wondering if this statement is true :

    Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

    Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

    thanx

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