Connective Tissue Breakdown

[McBain]

Remember a while back when my mother got a steroid (cortizone) injection for her herniated disc she was mulling over whether or not to get it done and I remember her saying it causes connective tissue breakdown that is irreversible. I've never heard anything about this from anabolic steroids but recently I've been thinking and hearing about joint pain from winny and was curious as to why the joint pain with winny occurs and if connective tissue damge is synonomous with any anabolic steroids ?

[Kaz]

BUMP

im not sure that there can be THAT much damage or the likes of Ron Coleman etc would probably have fallen apart by now!

however this is still an intersting thread and id like to have some feedback too.

[McBain]

Thing that worried me most was the irreversible damage part. One of the reason I lift is so that when I'm 40 or 50 I don't have break a hip from weak muscles and tendons so this would definitely be a huge downside imo. But I've never seen much discussion of this which would lead me to believe that it is not so with anabolic steroids but I like to be positive.

[gymnut4u]

Best I could find bro ,Taken from med text

Trauma is not the only way joints get damaged. Normal use over time can lead to degeneration and breakdown. Running, jumping, pounding, carrying heavy loads, and normal daily movement all accelerate joint problems. Degenerative changes cause the normally smooth cartilage to become rough due to a loss of chondrocytes (the cells that make cartilage, fluid and connective tissues for the joint). When this happens, they do not produce normal synovial fluid or connective tissue and pain becomes a symptom.

In traditional medicine, immediate masking of pain is accomplished through the use of drugs that are placed in the body either orally or by injection. These drugs (including the herbal ingredients, which are plant drugs) change the way the body normally functions so that pain is not recognized and/or the immune system stops the inflammatory response (and slows the healing process). The main types of drugs used are steroids (such as Cortisone or Prednisone), non steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID’s) (such as Banamine, Phenylbutazone, Ibuprofen, Ketofen, or Aspirin), or other drugs that alter the recognition of pain or interfere with the immune response.

Steroids and NSAID’s may cause joints to deteriorate faster than if these drugs had not been used. These chemicals interfere with how tissues are made and how they heal. Since the pain is masked, they play a role in how the workload is divided among joints, slowing the healing, and increasing the risk of further injury. Some of these drugs also decrease the joint’s ability to use sulfur, which gives connective tissue its elastic strength.

Many of the “flex products” on the market contain herbs, which do not contribute nutrients (building blocks) to the joint tissues. Don’t be fooled by the words “all natural” or “organic”. Remember, there are many poisons found in nature.

Since plants can’t fight off insects or animals that want to eat them, they contain chemicals that cause changes in the way the predator’s body works. These chemicals do many different things. Some act like the animal’s own hormones (like steroids) and many actually attack the body’s immune system. Depending on the specific plant, the amount eaten, and the size and type of animal, ingestion of herbs and their chemicals can cause death, abortions, seizures, or an altered activity of the nervous system. Herbs can also be used as antibiotics and anti-fungals, because they can also kill bacteria and fungus.

best I could find bro ,maybe TNT or some of the outher bros will have more on it !!!!

[ripped_82]

I just wrote a post on something similar to this. Here we go again.


GLUCOSAMINE is an important building block needed by the body to manufacture specialized molecules called glycosaminoglycans, found in cartilage. Glucosamine is almost exclusively researched and used for the treatment of osteoarthritis (OA).

CHONDROITIN consists of repeating chains of molecules called glycosaminoglycans (GAGs). Chondroitin sulfate is a major constituent of cartilage, providing structure, holding water and nutrients, and allowing other molecules to move through cartilage—an important property, as there is no blood supply to cartilage.

In degenerative joint disease, such as osteoarthritis, there is a loss of chondroitin sulfate as the cartilage erodes. Animal studies indicate that chondroitin sulfate may promote healing of bone, which is consistent with the fact that the majority of glycosaminoglycans found in bone consist of chondroitin sulfate.1 Chondroitin sulfate has been shown, in numerous double-blind trials,2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 to relieve symptoms and possibly slow the progression of, or reverse, osteoarthritis.10

Chondroitin and similar compounds are present in the lining of blood vessels and the urinary bladder. They help prevent abnormal movement of blood, urine, or components across the barrier of the vessel or bladder wall. Part of chondroitin’s role in blood vessels is to prevent excessive blood clotting. However, whether supplements of chondroitin are able to favorably affect blood clotting remains unclear. In addition, chondroitin sulfate may lower blood cholesterol levels.11 Older preliminary research showed that chondroitin sulfate may prevent atherosclerosis in animals and humans and may also prevent heart attacks in people who already have atherosclerosis.12 13 14

Chondroitin sulfate can help form a coating on nasal passages. Perhaps as a result, researchers found that when chondroitin sulfate was sprayed into the nasal passages of a small group of people who snore, the amount of time people spent snoring was reduced about one-third in a double-blind trial.15 No further studies have investigated the effects of oral chondroitin sulfate on snoring.

Chondroitin sulfate is rich in sulfur and is related to glucosamine. GAGs affect how the body processes oxalate—a substance linked to kidney stones. In one study of 40 people with a history of kidney stones, 30 mg twice a day of mixed GAGs reduced urinary oxalate excretion in 15 days—a change that could drop the risk of stone formation.16 However, studies on the effect of GAGs on stone formation in humans have produced inconsistent results.17

MSM
Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) is a naturally occurring, organic sulfur-containing compound related to another sulfur-containing substance, DMSO (Dimethyl Sulfoxide). MSM is found in small amounts throughout nature and has been detected in small amounts in the blood and urine of humans.1 Animal studies have shown that sulfur from oral supplements of MSM is incorporated into body proteins.2

Animal studies have reported that joints affected by osteoarthritis have lower sulfur content,3 and mice with arthritis given MSM, experience less joint deterioration.4 According to a preliminary report, a double-blind trial in people with osteoarthritis found that MSM, in the amount of 2,250 mg per day, reduced pain after six weeks.5

[McBain]

gymnut, good post, I have heard/read about the things you were talking about in your post a bit somewhat. It seems to me though the use of the cortizone shot in my mother's case was years after the damage and it was actually done in an attempt to cause the body to absorb the leaked spinal fluid (I believe). Not sure how exactly this goes about doing so. Also there was no change in pain, to my recollection, so this would lead me to believe it wasn't done in an attempt to ease the pain thereby "masking" the problem as you described, but moreso fixing the root of the problem. That all being said, this would lead me to believe that she wasn't refering to the problem that you described. But thank you for your attempt to answer the question. Seems like we are going to have to rule a few things out before we get an answer anyways so it was still helpful. Thanks


Ripped-
Maybe I didn't phrase my question well. I wasn't really asking about connective tissue/joint health and what can be done to further improve it, I was asking if steroids play a role in the degeneration of connective tissue directly. I am also aware that heavy lifting can also cause connective tissue trauma in some cases so that's why I chose to say directly. Now that I have cleared that up, does anyone have any more info on that?

[Dr.Evil]

there's a big difference between corticosteroids and anabolic steroids . corticosteroids are responsible for reducing inflammation, but a large side effect is weakened immunity and cartilege degeneration. the following is a study on corticosteroid induced cartilege degeneration. i will look to see if i can find anything on anabolic steroids , but i doubt it.

the following is an abstract. for the full text go to:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...f063ad7be0c2db

J Orthop Res 2001 Jul;19(4):688-95

Corticosteroids alter the differentiated phenotype of articular chondrocytes.

Fubini SL, Todhunter RJ, Burton-Wurster N, Vernier-Singer M, MacLeod JN.

Department of Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA.

Experimental evidence suggests that recommended dosages of some corticosteroids used clinically as antiinflammatory agents for treating arthropathies damage articular cartilage, but low dosages may be chondroprotective. The purpose of this study was to evaluate how different concentrations of methylprednisolone affect chondrocyte function and viability. Articular cartilage and chondrocytes were obtained from young adult horses, 1.5-3.5 years of age. Corticosteroid-induced changes in collagen expression were studied at the transcriptional level by Northern blot analyses and at the translational level by measuring [3H]-proline incorporation into [3H]-hydroxyproline. Fibronectin mRNA splicing patterns were evaluated with ribonuclease protection assays. Cytotoxicity was studied using erythrosin B dye exclusion. Steady-state levels of type II procollagen mRNA decreased without concurrent changes in type I procollagen expression as the medium methylprednisolone concentrations were increased from 1 x 10(1) to 1 x 10(8) pg/ml, dropping below 10% of control values by 1 x 10(5) pg/ml. Cytotoxicity occurred as methylprednisolone levels were increased further from 1 x 10(8) to 1 x 10(9) pg/ml. Changes in total collagen (protein) synthesis were less pronounced, but also demonstrated significant suppression between 1 x 10(4) and 1 x 10(8) pg/ml. Corticosteroid-induced changes in fibronectin isoform levels were evaluated in articular cartilage samples without in vitro culture. The cartilage-specific (V + C)(-) isoform was suppressed in both normal and inflamed joints by a single intraarticular injection (0.1 mg/kg) of methylprednisolone. Combined, these data indicate that methylprednisolone suppresses matrix protein markers of chondrocytic differentiation. Decreased and altered chondrocyte expression of matrix proteins likely contributes to the pathogenesis of corticosteroid-induced cartilage degeneration.

[Dr.Evil]

the following is an abstract showing stanozolol (winny) to help hinder connective tissue breakdown instead of accelerate it.

Agents Actions 1989 Nov;28(3-4):279-82

The effect of the anabolic steroid , stanozolol, on the production of procollagenase by human synovial and skin fibroblasts in vitro.

Wright JK, Smith AJ, Cawston TE, Hazleman BL.

Rheumatology Research Unit, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.

The ability of the anabolic steroid, stanozolol, to stimulate procollagenase production by human synovial and skin fibroblasts was examined in an in vitro assay system. Stanozolol is used therapeutically to treat a variety of connective tissue and vascular disorders and its clinical effects suggest that it can modulate connective tissue breakdown. The results showed that stanozolol was capable, in a dose dependent manner, of significantly stimulating procollagenase production by skin fibroblasts. However, in three synovial fibroblast lines no evidence was found of increased collagenase production following treatment with stanozolol; although the synovial fibroblasts secreted significantly increased amounts of procollagenase in response to IL-1. These results may shed some light on the mechanism of action in vivo of stanozolol in the treatment of connective tissue disorders.

[Dr.Evil]

btw, the joint pain you feel on winny is probably due to the fact that winny, through a progesterone mediated mechanism decreases the amount of synovial fluid in your joints. the lack of fluid causes friction and discomfort. this can be counteracted by adding some progesterone, or simply introducing some nandrolone (deca ) to your cycle with winny.

[McBain]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
btw, the joint pain you feel on winny is probably due to the fact that winny, through a progesterone mediated mechanism decreases the amount of synovial fluid in your joints. the lack of fluid causes friction and discomfort. this can be counteracted by adding some progesterone, or simply introducing some nandrolone (deca) to your cycle with winny.

Thanks Dr. Evil you read my mind, I wasn't sure why winny caused joint pain and I put 2 and 2 together and questioned whether or not it was connective tissue breakdown. Your post was very helpful, as usual, thanks that clears it up pretty much. Let me know if your further research turns up anything, Thanks again.

[Dr.Evil]

you're welcome. my further research was posted in this thread about the winny not deteriorating connective tissue.