steroids or anti-e's that close growth plates?

**jgg1221** · 01-01-2005, 12:30 PM

is it the roids or the anti-e's that close growth plates? ive been hearing mixed answers... the steroid profiles say its the steroids themselves, and some people on the board are saying its the anti-estrogens like nolvadex and clomid....

anyone know?

***BajanBastard*** · 01-01-2005, 12:39 PM

Estrogen.

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2003 Sep;86(3-5):345-56. Related Articles, Links

Novel treatment of short stature with aromatase inhibitors.

Dunkel L, Wickman S.

Hospital for Children and Adolescents, University of Helsinki, PO Box 281, Helsinki 00029 HUS, Finland. [email protected]

Estrogens have an essential role in the regulation of bone maturation and importantly in the closure of growth plates in both sexes. This prospective, randomized, placebo-controlled study was undertaken to evaluate whether suppression of estrogen synthesis in pubertal boys delays bone maturation and ultimately results in increased adult height. A total of 23 boys with constitutional delay of puberty (CDP) received a conventional, low-dose testosterone treatment for inducing progression of puberty. Eleven of these 23 boys were randomized to receive a specific and potent P450-aromatase inhibitor, letrozole , for suppression of estrogen action, and 12 boys were randomized to receive placebo. Estradiol concentrations in the letrozole-treated boys remained at the pretreatment level during the administration of letrozole, whereas the concentrations increased during the treatment with testosterone alone and during spontaneous progression of puberty. Testosterone concentrations increased in all groups, but during the letrozole treatment, the increase was more than fivefold higher than in the group treated with testosterone alone. The inhibition of estrogen synthesis delayed bone maturation. The slower bone maturation in the boys treated with testosterone and letrozole, despite higher androgen concentrations, than in the boys treated with testosterone indicate that estrogens are more important than androgens in regulation of bone maturation in pubertal boys. During the 18 months follow-up, an increase of 5.1 cm in predicted adult height was observed in the boys who received testosterone and letrozole, but no change was seen in the boys who received testosterone alone or in the untreated boys. This finding indicates that an increase in adult height can be attained in growing adolescent boys by inhibiting of estrogen action.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 14623531 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

**jgg1221** · 01-01-2005, 01:16 PM

so then how much nolva does it take to completely close the growth plates?

***BajanBastard*** · 01-01-2005, 01:40 PM

You only heard ONE person saying that here and he showed no proof to the claim.

**speedtraining** · 01-01-2005, 02:12 PM

didn't close mine i'm 19 and I grew a 1/2 inch this year...

**jgg1221** · 01-01-2005, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

You only heard ONE person saying that here and he showed no proof to the claim.

saying what exactly

***BajanBastard*** · 01-01-2005, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by jgg1221

saying what exactly

That s.e.r.ms affect growth plates. Honestly i will have to look into it.

**jgg1221** · 01-01-2005, 03:59 PM

ok well what im curious is do testosterone esters and other various roids close growth plates? it says that on the steroid .com drug profiles but ive heard SEVERAL people say that is the estrogen, not the roids... cant remember where/who in the forum they said it though, sorry

**Nutz56** · 01-01-2005, 06:34 PM

ok. so, if u were 19, and going to juice, what would u use for your pct and anti-e's? would nolva not be a good idea during a cycle of dbol & test?

**angelxterminator** · 01-01-2005, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by jgg1221

ok well what im curious is do testosterone esters and other various roids close growth plates? it says that on the steroid.com drug profiles but ive heard SEVERAL people say that is the estrogen, not the roids... cant remember where/who in the forum they said it though, sorry

WELL....first of all, testosterone , and its esters do NOT caused fusion of epiphyseal growth plates, but actually accelerate growth, it is the estrogenic counterpart that fuses the growth plates; therefore the use of a powerful aromitase inhibitor(such as letrozole ) 2-3 weeks before the beginning of a steroid cycle (and during) would aid in the prevention of such an event!

In many cases anavar and testosterone have been used to INCREASE height in certain individuals with ISS, and certain other disorders, but the testosterone subsequently lead to higher estrogenic production, leaving an aromitase inhibitor the only choice to prevent growth form being halted in its tracks!

Run letrozole, start at 1.25mg every day, and work your dose up as needed. In ideal circumstances you would have an endocrinologist perform epiphyseal bone growth studies to determine if you had any lateral growth to be achieved...but in the real world, not many people trust their doctors with steroid cycles!

You may run the clomid for PCT as needed, but during cycle many people do not feel the need for nolvadex , as its anti-estrogenic capabilities are far overpowered by the letrozole anyway! A PCT of tribulus, and other testosterone stimulating compounds would lessen the chance of epiphyseal fusion, but personally, i couldn't live without my balls and biceps

the girls just wouldn't want me anymore

**bignuts** · 01-02-2005, 03:19 AM

i did 2 cycles before and i just finished my third, my first cycle i did i didnt use any kinda of anti-e, but for the 2nd and 3rd one i used an anti-aromitase. do u think my growth plates have closes

**angelxterminator** · 01-02-2005, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by bignuts

i did 2 cycles before and i just finished my third, my first cycle i did i didnt use any kinda of anti-e, but for the 2nd and 3rd one i used an anti-aromitase. do u think my growth plates have closes

It is highly possible that they have fused, yes...BUT there is only one way to determine that for sure, and you have to get the x-rays!

**statuZ** · 01-02-2005, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by angelxterminator

It is highly possible that they have fused, yes...BUT there is only one way to determine that for sure, and you have to get the x-rays!

same i did a d-bol only cycle, i have a slight case of gyno, does that guarantee that my growth plates are fused?

**Property of Steroid.com** · 01-02-2005, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

You only heard ONE person saying that here and he showed no proof to the claim.

Watch out...you've posted a one word answer, a study, asked for proof of something which is suspect, and haven't posted one Smiley or said "bro" once...you're about to get a bad reputation....

(Like Mine...)

**jsimon** · 01-02-2005, 02:16 PM

does m1t give great gains if your on it long enough? i was on it for 2 weeks and didnt notice shot.

**Nutz56** · 01-02-2005, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by jsimon

does m1t give great gains if your on it long enough? i was on it for 2 weeks and didnt notice shot.

umm... new thread?

**Angel of death** · 01-02-2005, 04:42 PM

I saw like 12lbs in 2 weeks on that stuff. Lost about 5 of em tho.

**9000rpm** · 01-02-2005, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Nutz56

ok. so, if u were 19, and going to juice, what would u use for your pct and anti-e's? would nolva not be a good idea during a cycle of dbol & test?

If I were 19 I wouldn't juice. But if you just can't be talked out of it, my suggestion is to spend a little more money and use HGH instead of juice. HGH is actually prescribed to youths in their growth spurts to lengthen the spurt and make them grow taller. But if you decide this is the route you want to take, you should seriously talk to a doctor first to get some advice. If you are 19, he can't tell your parents about anything you two talked about because of doctor/patient privilege. If he is just dead set against you doing it and won't give you any advice, tell him thanks, and that you will self medicate and possibly screw up your whole future. And ask him if he's ok with that.

But my advice is to wait until you are about 20 to 21 to make sure you have stopped growing.

**Ntpadude** · 01-03-2005, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by jgg1221

is it the roids or the anti-e's that close growth plates? ive been hearing mixed answers... the steroid profiles say its the steroids themselves, and some people on the board are saying its the anti-estrogens like nolvadex and clomid....

anyone know?

I believe you will find on US Government anti-drug web sites, HRT doctor web sites, breastcancer.org and several other places that estrogen, estradiol and the serms such as nolva and clomid or any estrogen site receptor activating compound can close growth plates. Because the FHA bans official drug testing on things related to adolescents, there is no official testing to back up the ideas that nolva or clomid will close growth plates.

There is very clear evidence and studies that phyto estrogen found in soy products and licorice can close the growth plates, and phytoestrogens are not as strong of a estrogen receptor activator as nolva and clomid are. This is because for generations, Japanese and Chinese have had high soy diets, however in modern times, take the Japanese and Chinese decendants out of those countries, give them no tofu or soy products during adolescence and they grow much taller then their parents/grandparents because you've taken the phyto estrogen out of their diet.

The closest evidence you will find is the rare circumstance of young girls having breast cancer before the age of 20, Nolva therapy was found to stop height growth, this can be found on breastcancer.org.

**TheBrent** · 01-07-2005, 04:22 PM

what dose of testosterone would you run to increase height? is it possible to do a cycle that will both increase height as well as mass while using a test and letro and possibly anavar ?

AngelX letro 1.25mg a day, starting 2 weeks pre-cycle, what about when you are coming off, wait 3 weeks for pct and use things such as tribu avena etc? when do you stop letro?

thanks bro

**9000rpm** · 01-07-2005, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by TheBrent

what dose of testosterone would you run to increase height? is it possible to do a cycle that will both increase height as well as mass while using a test and letro and possibly anavar ?

AngelX letro 1.25mg a day, starting 2 weeks pre-cycle, what about when you are coming off, wait 3 weeks for pct and use things such as tribu avena etc? when do you stop letro?

thanks bro

There aren't any AS that will increase height. AS will stop growth during puberty and also after puberty if the person is still growing.

**TheBrent** · 01-07-2005, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

There aren't any AS that will increase height. AS will stop growth during puberty and also after puberty if the person is still growing.

have you even been reading this thread? test is used to make people (children) grow during puberty and post puberty as long. estrogen makes you stop growing, the AS cause your plates to close when the aromatizes, so if you inhibit that then your plates (theoretically) will stay open and allow room for growth

**9000rpm** · 01-07-2005, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by TheBrent

have you even been reading this thread? test is used to make people (children) grow during puberty and post puberty as long. estrogen makes you stop growing, the AS cause your plates to close when the aromatizes, so if you inhibit that then your plates (theoretically) will stay open and allow room for growth

Man, have you been reading this thread? You have officially lost any and all credibility you had in my eyes.

First of all, absolutely not test promotes growth in height.

Second, I'm the one that posted that growth hormone is given to kids while in puberty to prolong their growth spurt so they can grow taller.

Is there anything else you would like to mix up and make yourself look retarded?

And please don't come back and say, "yeah, test, GH,....same thing".

**TheBrent** · 01-07-2005, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

Man, have you been reading this thread? You have officially lost any and all credibility you had in my eyes.

First of all, absolutely not test promotes growth in height.

Second, I'm the one that posted that growth hormone is given to kids while in puberty to prolong their growth spurt so they can grow taller.

Is there anything else you would like to mix up and make yourself look retarded?

And please don't come back and say, "yeah, test, GH,....same thing".

ok im going to do some research on this one. sorry about the "have you been reading this thread" that i posted earlier. but like i said im going to read up on this one a little more, because i do believe that test can help inrease height if growth plates are still open. ( check the long post by angelX in this post, it talks about test and anavar being used to helpl children grow taller, although it only says children with ISS etc... it doesnt specifically say for all cases. so i'll check it out.

angelX- can you help me with some info on this one or a study?

**TheBrent** · 01-07-2005, 07:09 PM

thanks MMA. im in the process of researching a lot about the arom-inhibitors like letro. i've been discusing this with our height specialist for a little while. the idea of letro before and during a test cycle sounds prettyy feasable. after a lot more research i may be planning on doing a cycle consisting of test and letro, then an all natural pct i.e. avena sativa trib etc...

**TheBrent** · 01-07-2005, 07:26 PM

i like your take on this. i love to get advice and critiscism. im holding out until i believe i know "enough" not that one can really know enough about the subject. im trying to become as well educated as possible before i even attempt to start anything that could potentially harm me

Originally Posted by MMA

just be careful. i cannot reccomend that young people juice....but if they do (and many will) i would rather tell them the best ways to avoid the side effects, than flame them until they leave, and juice with total ignorance.

**TheBrent** · 01-07-2005, 10:58 PM

haha, yeah ive checked out these so called "FORUMS". there is a lot of great info in them, but i sure havent checked them out enough. i am also planning on getting a solid and lean 15 lbs, like you said.

Originally Posted by MMA

you've got the right idea. it takes A LOT of research b4 you know the safest way to do things, so you might as well start now. and try to gain as much as you can natural, while you're researching. don't just hang out in the AS forum. we have these other secret forums most people have never heard of. if you scroll down the forum you'll eventually run into this place called the Workout Forum. and the Diet Forum. these "secret forums" will help you a lot

i expect you to gain 15 more pounds natural b4 u even think of juicing!

**9000rpm** · 01-08-2005, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by MMA

and lets try to keep a civil tone about this too. no need to flame or get personal, we're all here to learn from eachother.

Hey, I was just responding to him. He snapped at me first. No harm done though, we are all adults here.

As for the AS helping growth, I'm still skeptic about that. Like you said, you will grow faster, but will you grow taller? There are plenty of proven medical studies about GH being used to lengthen growth spurts in kids in puberty. Why use anything else when GH is proven to work and it is used today to do exactly that.

**TheBrent** · 01-08-2005, 12:04 PM

gh is pricey

**frank_frank** · 01-08-2005, 12:29 PM

my friend grew almost an inch after doing 2 cycles

**9000rpm** · 01-08-2005, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by TheBrent

gh is pricey

Yeah, but if I were young, (18 to 20), I'd rather be safe and use GH instead of using something that has been proven to stop or slow growth while in puberty. And don't think just because your voice isn't changing anymore that puberty is gone. I wouldn't use AS until I were 21 if I were you. Unless you are already greater than 6" and you don't want to be any taller.

It's always better to be safe than sorry.

**Jackman** · 01-08-2005, 06:39 PM

They used anavar before they had gh i believe, and by the way i like how you called him a jackass when infact you were doing what you accused him of

Originally Posted by 9000rpm

Yeah, but if I were young, (18 to 20), I'd rather be safe and use GH instead of using something that has been proven to stop or slow growth while in puberty. And don't think just because your voice isn't changing anymore that puberty is gone. I wouldn't use AS until I were 21 if I were you. Unless you are already greater than 6" and you don't want to be any taller.

It's always better to be safe than sorry.