Thread: Newbie- Apologizing
02-01-2005, 03:08 PM #1Associate Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
I would like to apologize, as a newb i started asking, before i started reading. Now the More i read, i realize i should just keep reading sorry for no researching before i opened my mouth
02-01-2005, 03:09 PM #2Associate Member
- Join Date
- May 2004
- I live at the gym
dont sweat it bro, and good luck with all your endevours... when i first got here i would just do a search every time i had a question then if i couldn't find the answer i would ask
02-01-2005, 03:16 PM #3
**** I did the same thing...feel free to PM me with any questions as Ive learned alot so far from this site
02-01-2005, 03:27 PM #4
Don't worry about it bro. At least you are man enough to apologize even though you didn't have to, I respect someone like that. Keep up the reasearch bro and don't be afraid to ask questions (just not very BASIC ones).
02-01-2005, 03:28 PM #5
Heres some interesting reading..that is helping me...Came across these and saved them..cant remember the site though?
For something that is generally injected into cows, horses and dogs boldenone is quite a popular and well-liked drug by most bodybuilders because of its unique make-up. It possesses several characteristics that aren't found in any other substance and its use is so varied its much desired year-round. Boldenone is a decent anabolic coupled with both a mild androgenic and a mild estrogenic effect. Sort of like a weak testosterone . In structure it doesn't differ all that much from testosterone, the main anomaly being a double bond in the one position as well as the 4 position. Its nonetheless quite good at promoting gains, but mostly through a combination of androgenic potential and other media than the androgen and estrogen receptors.
The strange thing about its androgenic component is that it is mostly not mediated by a 5-alpha-reduced form, as is the case for most steroids . While it does indeed form a very potent 5AR form (dihydroboldenone, roughly 7 times as anabolic as testosterone1) its shows a very low affinity for the 5-alpha-reducatase enzyme2. This leads to the conclusion that a large part of the anabolic effect boldenone exerts is formed by the hormone itself binding to the androgen receptor. This could also be the reason its had such a successful run as a veterinary drug, because despite differences in the metabolism of species it has always produced extraordinary results.
Like most anabolic steroids it increases muscle mass over time by increasing nitrogen retention and positively influencing protein synthesis or re-synthesis. An action that is not necessarily supported by an androgenic mediator as was shown with nandrolone . What boldenone has that other steroids don't is that it indirectly supplies the necessary means for that protein synthesis because it drastically increases the appetite. Thereby facilitating the high nutritional intake (especially protein wise) needed to book the best results when using anabolic androgenic steroids. Its more of a benefit than you think as a lot of people have theorized that it is this increase that is responsible for the great results booked when using boldenone. This theory may hold its own as there is indeed not much proof of the kind of anabolic activity with boldenone that would be responsible for the elicited effect.
Its estrogenic activities are slight, but present. This has more of a positive than negative influence. The aromatisation of boldenone is too small to cause real problems and in normal doses (300-400 mg/week) problems such as gynocomastia and too much fat retention are unheard of. However small aromatisation is desirable as estrogen too mediates anabolic activity. It can be responsible for better glucose utilization3,4 (repleting lost glycogen stores after exercise) and stimulating increased growth hormone release5. But most notably estrogen is responsible for an upgrading of the androgen receptor6 allowing hormones that act on the androgen receptor to exert a larger anabolic effect. This is why hormones that are strong androgens but also aromatize heavily, like anadrol and testosterone, can put the most mass on your frame. In that aspect boldenone is perhaps the most suitable steroid because of its moderate estrogen levels that allow for the benefits, but not the side-effects of aromatization. And no doubt the perfect balance is partially responsible for stimulation of the appetite.
For athletes of sports other than strength sports or bodybuilding will also note that boldenone is quite likely the most favorable steroid for them to use as it also stimulates the release of erythropoeitin in the kidneys. Erythropoeitin is a hormone known as EPO and heavily abused among endurance athletes because it signals the body to increase the production of red blood cells (erythrocytes). Red blood cells are the carrier of oxygen in the body, meaning that a higher maximal oxygen capacity can be obtained and better performance can be achieved over longer amounts of time before lactic acid is built up, which would in turn result in cramps and a cessation of the activity at that level. In short it improves your stamina. For bodybuilders this characteristic may be useful in promoting increased vascularity.
In that aspect boldenone combined with a non-aromatizing steroid like Winstrol or Primobolan may be perfect to help you get cut and ripped while improving vascularity. The downside to that is that you really need to try hard to suppress the increased appetite. Which is why its probably a better idea to stack a somewhat larger dose of boldenone with a mass building drug like testosterone or anadrol to elicit major gains.
The negative effects of boldenone are quite limited. In the normal doses of 300-400 mg a week estrogenic side-effects are almost never noted except in those who are very succeptible to estrogen. In terms of androgenic side-effects long-term use or very intense use of boldenone can cause slight virilizing effects such as acne and increased body-hair growth. Never really a problem for men, but women considering its use on account of its moderate androgenic qualities should be aware of this.
Stacking and Use:
As an undecylenate ester, boldenone needs only be injected every week (staying active well over 4 weeks), but because the preparations come in 25 mg/ml, users most often opt for 25-50 mg every day to every other day. A use of 300-400 mg per week seems to be the normal recommendation. Its not hepatoxic to any serious degree and can therefore be used for longer cycles. The appearance of underground forms of boldenone in higher concentrations (200 mg/ml) has made it easier to inject only once a week, which is to be preffered over the multiple dosings because it has a more even release and the cumulative effect shows much sooner. Speaking of cumulative effect, the best results with boldenone are seen when a user front-loads. Usually that means he will use a high doses of 600-800 mg/week for 2 weeks and then lower that dose to the normal 300-400 mg/week for the remaining 8-10 weeks.
Boldenone is most often used for cutting. Its stacking partners for this purpose in particular are trenbolone , stanazolol and testosterone propionate . I'm no big fan of testosterone for cutting, although propionate is commonly used with great success by many users. Nonetheless I don't recommend test for cutting for beginners. Stanazolol is particularly useful in improving muscle hardness and strength while boldenone offers increased vascularity without overly aromatizing. The use of 50 mg of stanazolol every day, stacked with 300-400 mg per week of boldenone should serve the purpose of retaining gains and gaining increased definition and vascularity while shedding fat very well. Trenbolone would be a better match for those looking for moderate but very lean gains. Parabolan at 76 mg every other day for example will provide a decent increase in lean mass in combination with boldenone, without having to sacrifice shape or definition. Of course any combination of the above is an option as well. For example 300 mg of equipoise per week stacked with 76 mg of parabolan every other day and 50 mg of Winstrol every day, possibly with some test propionate at 50 mg a day.
But though rarely mentioned, I personally find boldenone the better choice for bulking. Due to its effect on vascularity it is mostly used for cutting, but if you had a drug that increased your appetite like boldenone does, would you really use it to lose weight? It makes more sense to use it in a stack with a testosterone ester like enanthate or cypionate for good gains, instead of nandrolone. Sort of as a base. It aromatizes less than nandrolone and doesn't have that pesky progestagenic effect either, and because it increases appetite it would provide you with the means to an end in terms of gaining weight. 300-400 mg a week of boldenone with 500 mg of sustanon or 500 mg of testosterone enanthate would form an incredible stack. Even for those who prefer deca , adding a small amount of boldenone will go a long way in improving appetite. But boldenone is stronger than Deca, mg for mg, as well as safer and less suppressive.
Boldenone makes a very poor match for nandrolone and methenolone though, since its very similar in action. The beauty of boldenone is that it can be an alternative for nandrolone when bulking due to its leaner results and more potent anabolic action, as well as an alternative for methenolone because while barely aromatizing its stronger than methenolone (Primobolan), gram for gram.
The use of secondary drugs is rarely required. It doesn't aromatize at a great rate so the use of anti-aromatases is rarely implemented and the use of Nolva and clomid, during a cycle, is only necessary when stacked with aromatizing steroids like testosterone. Nolvadex or Clomid may have some use in restoring natural test post-cycle, because of the long-acting ester (11 carbons) and the mild estrogenic component. Normally 4 weeks of treatment is required, starting 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last shot.
The decanoate ester of nandrolone is generally referred to as Deca, stemming from the brand name Deca-Durabolin under which nandrolone was marketed by the Organon company. But as the reference list up above suggests there are many generic forms of this compound available. Nandrolone is perhaps the best marketed and easy to get steroid out there and it has always enjoyed an immense popularity. Its fairly accurate to state that safe for Dianabol , Deca is by far the most used steroid. The deca/d-bol stack, it is often suggested, is where the practice of stacking comes from. But what does it owe its popularity too ? Well, nandrolone has some unique qualities that make it unlike any other steroid known to man.
Nandrolone is more commonly known as the base steroid 19Nor-testosterone. As this structure would indicate its like testosterone in appearance but for one small change : the absence of a carbon atom in the 19th position. This gives it a number of very distinct features. First of all it makes nandrolone a notably weaker agonist of the androgen receptor. That alone causes quite a reduction in the risk of androgenic side-effects. This is because it is the only steroid that is affected by the 5-alpha-reductase (5AR) enzyme in a way that makes it even less androgenic. Unlike testosterone which forms DHT (dihydrotestosterone) at the 5AR enzyme, a hormone 3-4 times as potent as an androgen receptor stimulator, nandrolone forms DHN (dihydronandrolone) a hormone that is even less suited than the already mild parent hormone for agonizing the androgen receptor. Those two features combined make nandrolone a very safe bet for people at risk for prostate hypertrophy, acne and aggravated male pattern hair loss. At the same time its estimated that nandrolone is 2.4 times as anabolic as testosterone1, on a gram for gram basis.
Due to the many different ways that testosterone mediates anabolism, one has to take that statement with a serious grain of salt, but it does establish nandrolone as a potent muscle builder and performance enhancer with a comparatively safe character, at least androgenically speaking. This androgenic mildness is perhaps the greatest reason for its popularity. But due to the lack of immediate anabolic activity nandrolone is rarely used alone. Its the most known and sought after product for use as a base steroid, to use in conjunction with a more androgenic specimen to enhance the results without increasing androgenic side-effects to a serious degree.
The ways in which nandrolone exerts its anabolic effects are two-fold. First of all it's a good mediator for nitrogen retention. When nitrogen retention is high, in essence it means that the cells are taking up more nitrogen than they are releasing. Why is this a good thing though? Well every amino acid has what is known as an amino-group, which contains nitrogen. When nitrogen is retained it means there is a high concentration of amino acids in a cell, which in turn positively affects the rate of protein synthesis. Since every tissue in the body is made from protein, including muscle, this means that muscle hypertrophy is facilitated. A second factor is through estrogen. While nandrolone's rate of aromatization is considerably smaller than that of testosterone, it does convert to a particularly powerful form of estrogen¹. This has been noted to increase glycogen storage, growth hormone release and upgrade the androgen receptor in some tissues. In this case it also entails agonizing of aldosterone, but more on that later.
On an interesting note, the 5-alpha-reduced versions enlighten us as to the anabolic effect of nandrolone as opposed to that of testosterone. Since nandrolone is weakened at the 5AR enzyme and testosterone becomes notably stronger at the 5AR enzyme it makes sense that testosterone would be a better anabolic mediator in tissues with a high concentration of this enzyme, and that nandrolone would be the stronger of the two in tissues with a lower count of 5AR enzyme1b. Because 5AR is not as well represented in muscle tissue it accounts for the finding that nandrolone is 2.4 times more anabolic when it comes directly to muscular hypertrophy. It also explains why its less of a risk for androgenic side-effects such as benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and androgenetic alopecia (MPB). Both the prostate and the scalp namely have high concentrations of the 5AR enzyme.
If indeed the overall yield of estrogen is so much smaller, and so is the rate of androgen receptor stimulation, how then is nandrolone so anabolic? The common belief is through a third receptor : the progesterone receptor. It has been concluded that both nandrolone2 and several of its metabolites3,4 do indeed activate the progesterone receptor and are altered by it. On the one hand progestagenic activity decreases the estrogen receptor concentration in some tissues, it also mediates estrogenic action in other tissues5. So while estrogenic side-effects are fairly uncommon with nandrolone use alone, they can indeed occur and the implications of nandrolone's activity as a progesterone indicate these potential side-effects aren't to be solved with an aromatase inhibitor alone (like Cytadren ). As long as there is estrogen in the system (indicating a possible increase of the problem when stacked with another aromatizing compound) progesterone can agonize its effects. And since progesterone receptors are found in breast tissue and have been linked to the formation of milk ducts, progestagenic activity may aggravate possibly gynocomastia. So while such problems are rare, when they occur they aren't easily treated.
It makes sense then that those particularly prone to the effects and side-effects of estrogen would take extra precaution. Blocking aromatase, considering the previous paragraph, would be a poor choice, but competitively inhibiting the estrogen receptor itself with clomiphene citrate (Clomid) or tamoxifen citrate (Nolvadex) might bring some relief since a large portion of progestagenic action is nullified if there is no circulating estrogen around, or if it is kept from being activated by the estrogen receptor. It is generally assumed that 1 mg of either every day for every 20 mg of nandrolone injected weekly is sufficient. Slightly higher doses, or the use of an aromatase inhibitor like cytadren can be stacked if nandrolone is used in conjunction with another aromatizing steroid. It has also been noted that the steroid stanozolol (Winstrol) may provide relief as it too binds to the progesterone receptor but remains unaltered by it. How strong of a competitor it is in such a case and what sort of doses would be needed are as much your guess as they are mine, so this may be non-issue. But it does bode well for the stacking of nandrolone with stanozolol in that you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Another benefit of nandrolone use often reported is the pain-free workouts because nandrolone lubricates the joints. It stores a lot of water (as synovial fluid) in the joints, which eases the impact of the heavy weights handled by bodybuilders and weight lifters. One may wonder how nandrolone can do a better job at it than a steroid that aromatizes much stronger such as a testosterone ester, but its quite easily explained. One study at least goes to show that nandrolone metabolites are also aldosterone agonists6. Although we aren't entirely sure of the mechanism by which this occurs. But, while sparing you the details of this complex hormone, aldosterone has a strong function in the retention of sodium in the body. High sodium levels correlate with a high storage of water and that would explain the aforementioned effect. Of course one needs to note the implication of this of course: a bulkier frame and a certain loss of definition are not uncommon with nandrolone, perhaps more so than with testosterone.
One last note that is of critical relevance to drug tested athletes is the interaction between nandrolone and esterase. Injectable, non 17-alpha-alkylated hormones are often esterified. This means attaching an ester to a specific position on the steroid causing it to be more lipophyllic. That means it stores well in body-fat and is only slowly released into the bloodstream, giving the whole a time-released character. The more carbons an ester has the longer it will last. For the drug to become active it needs to remove its ester. When released into the bloodstream simply the suspension in H2O will solve that. But in the body-fat the ester can also be removed by the enzyme esterase. But esterase works two ways, meaning in some cases it can also attach an ester. Nandrolone is such a case.
Nandrolone with a decanoate ester is fairly long acting (10 carbons) to begin with and if on top of that a lot of the drug can be de- and re-esterified that means the substance stays active in the body for quite a long time. This has resulted in positive drug tests for the hormone nandrolone and many of its metabolites, most notably 19-Norandrosterone up to 18 months after last use of the drug. While this is a fairly known fact, the recent number of athletes (including well known soccer stars) that have tested positive for nandrolone would indicate a lot of misinformation or plain lack of information in some circles. Positive tests, with reprimands, that could have easily been avoided. So anyone subject to any form of athletic drug test should refrain from using 19-Nortestosterone (nandrolone) or any of its metabolites, that includes nor-prohormones.
For those of you looking to use nandrolone as your only steroid, be aware that the gains on nandrolone are not only mild, but also quite hard to maintain. Nandrolone, in the first place due to its combined estrogenic/progestagenic properties, is quite suppressive of the natural testosterone production. Since it actively participates at three receptors its very quick and merciless when it comes to giving negative feedback to the release of gonadotropin releasing hormone from the hypothalamus. But then one also has to take into account its affinity for esterases, making it stay active in the body significantly longer than most hormones. Because that means upon cessation of nandrolone-use you'll still be under quite suppressive conditions, there simply isn't enough intrinsic anabolism available to support the mass you gained, resulting in a rather quick and inglorious reduction of weight.
Personally, for all intents and purposes I prefer boldenone (equipoise) over nandrolone. Its also a relatively mild androgen that has no conversion at the 5AR enzyme, so its not that much more of an androgenic risk, but in all other aspects it's a much safer steroid. Doesn't have strong estrogenic effects, nor progestagenic activity. That means it doesn't cause bloat or fat gain and is much less likely to cause gyno. On the contrary, the gains from boldenone are much leaner. Its also stronger, mg for mg. It doesn't readily re-esterify and due to its lower estrogenic effects, it is not nearly as suppressive of natural testosterone either. That makes the gains not only better, qualitatively speaking, but also much easier to maintain. Also as far as purchase is concerned. Boldenone is becoming cheaper and is very widely available. The availability of Deca is dropping, but its still the most counterfeited steroid in the world. That makes it more likely that an inexperienced buyer will get scammed looking for nandrolone decanoate, than looking for boldenone undecylenate.
Stacking and Use:
Nandrolone stacks well with virtually anything. Due to its mildly aromatizing and its progestagenic activity its mostly used as a mass building compound by all but the monstrously huge. Because some water retention is a fact, one would not desire to include it in a cutting phase, especially if its one of your first cycles. Nandrolone is used in doses of 200-600 mg per week. 400 mg is the common recommendation for a somewhat experienced user, when used in conjunction with another product. Nandrolone as decanoate, as found in deca-durabolin, is a long acting ester of 10 carbons. That means 1 injection weekly will more than suffice as it has quite a long span of activity
To this effect its preferably stacked with another aromatizing compound. In the first place a long acting testosterone like cypionate, enanthate or sustanon 250. For a beginner cycle, we want to note that the testosterone compound is the most active compound and its therefore more desirable to lower the dose of nandrolone rather than the dose of testosterone. Often beginners look to start at 400 mg of nandrolone and 250 mg of testosterone. A better suggestion would be 200 mg of nandrolone and 500 mg of testosterone. Then bump the nandrolone to 400 mg.
It also makes a good match for doses of Anadrol or Dianabol, although neither compound can be used for the time-span of nandrolone decanoate due to liver toxicity. This isn't the case for a long-acting testosterone ester. Often nandrolone and test are stacked in conjunction with Anadrol or Dianabol for the first few weeks of a stack to boost gains and strength.
A nandrolone stack accompanied by stanazolol (Winstrol/Stromba) makes sense as well, especially for those who are highly prone to gyno. It's commonly accepted that stanazolol can compete for the progesterone receptor, and since nandrolone can act as a progestin, this is a wise precaution. Progesterone agonizes estrogen and while nandrolone only aromatizes slightly and cases of gyno with moderate nandrolone use is rare, when stacking it with another aromatizable compound like Dianabol or testosterone, you may not want to take the chance.
For secondary products one needn't consider an anti-aromatase like Cytadren since one cannot fully block all aromatase conversion and due to the enhanced estrogen activity as a result of progestagenic influence, it would serve little purpose. Using an estrogen-receptor antagonist, while not fool-proof obviously, may serve some benefit. Agonized or not, without binding to the receptor estrogen loses most of its influence. Using stanazolol and either clomid or Nolvadex during a stack with nandrolone is usually the best prescription. Post-cycle use of such substances to help HPTA recover faster and retain gains also comes highly recommended, and preferably for longer than you would with most stacks, since nandrolone stays active for a very long time.
More advanced users often consider the use of low-dose nandrolone (200 mg/week) with cutting cycles as well, which goes to prove that nandrolone really does stack with anything.
02-01-2005, 03:29 PM #6
When your done with that.....
Testosterone is the prime male androgen in the body, and as such still the best possible mass builder in the world. It has a high risk of side-effects because it readily converts to a more androgenic form (DHT) in androgen responsive tissues and forms estrogen quite easily. But these characteristics also provide it with its extreme anabolic tendencies. On the one hand estrogen increases growth hormone output, glucose utilization, improves immunity and upgrades the androgen receptor, while on the other hand a testosterone/DHT combination is extremely potent at activating the androgen receptor and eliciting major strength and size gains. While not always the most visually appealing result, there is no steroid on earth that packs on mass like testosterone does.
Like testosterone cypionate , enanthate is a single-ester and long-acting form of the base steroid testosterone. To me, its slightly better value for money than the aforementioned because its ester is only 7 instead of 8 carbons in length. Where that doesn't really change much in terms of release and blood concentration for users who inject on a weekly basis, that does mean that less of the weight is ester and more of it is testosterone. When taking an amount of an esterified steroid, that amount in terms of weight is a combination of the ester and the steroid. Naturally the longer the ester is, the more of the weight it takes up. So its safe to state that 500 mg of enanthate contains more testosterone than does 500 mg of cypionate . Not that this slight difference will be noted on a weekly pattern really, but its enough for me to give it a slight edge if given the choice. Although, as stated with cypionate, your choice between enanthate and cypionate is best based on availability. These are a much better choice than sustanon 250 or omnadren , which are blends of different testosterone esters, due to their irregular release. Nonetheless these versions still appear to be more popular with most users for some reason. Before you compare these to shorter esters under the pretense that even more of the weight would be testosterone, for bulking purposes the release pattern and injection pattern of an enanthate or cypionate is more fitting than that of say, a propionate ester. Enanthate and cypionate are very close in those terms, hence the comparison is possible.
A long-acting testosterone ester may be the best for all your mass-building needs, but its not an easy product to use. Because of the extreme length of action (3-4 weeks) one cannot easily solve occurring problems by simply discontinuing the product, as it will continue to act and aggravate side-effects over extended periods of time. In regards to damage control and post-cycle therapy, some familiarity with the use of ancillary drugs is required prior to using a long-acting testosterone product. Nolvadex and Proviron will come in very handy in such cases and post-cycle HCG and clomid or Nolvadex will be required as well to help restore natural testosterone. Frequency of side-effects is probably highest with this type of product.
While most will tell you it's a waste to not use testosterone, as it will take ages longer to build proper mass, these are all points to take into consideration. Testosterone is a product that is heavily used by beginners and veterans alike and justly so. Those who fear they may never understand the proper use of ancillary drugs, may want to suck it up and invest in some propionate or suspension testosterones instead. These are much shorter acting and easier to control, but they do need to be injected once every two days, whereas this type of ester will impart great gains with a single weekly injection. Something to keep in mind.
Stacking and Use:
Testosterone is the most powerful compound there is, so obviously its perfectly fine to use it by itself. With a long-acting ester like Enanthate doses of 500-1000 mg per week are used with very clear results over a 10 week period. If you've ever seen a man swell up with sheer size, then testosterone was the cause of it. But testosterone is nonetheless often stacked. Due to the high occurrence of side-effects, people will usually split up a stack in testosterone and a milder component in order to obtain a less risky cycle, but without having to give up as much of the gains. Primobolan , Equipoise and Deca -Durabolin are the weapons of choice in this matter.
Deca seems to be the most popular, probably because of its extremely mild androgenic nature. But Deca being one of the highest risks for just about every other side-effects, I probably wouldn't advise it. If Deca is used, generally a dose of 200-400 mg is added to 500-750 mg of testosterone per week. Primobolan is sometimes opted for, and can be handy since it doesn't aromatize, which will make the total level of water retention and fat gain a lot less than with more test or with Deca for example. Unfortunately, its mild nature combined with a lack of estrogen make Primobolan a very poor mass builder. Again, doses of 300-400 mg are used. I would actually suggest a higher dose, but with the current prices for Primo I don't think it would be very popular. My personal preference goes out to Equipoise. Androgenically its not that much stronger than Deca because it has next to no affinity for the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme and is only half as androgenic as testosterone. Its twice as strong as Deca, mg for mg, and has a lower occurrence of side-effects. It has some estrogen, but not a whole lot so it actually tends to lean a person out rather than bloat him up as Deca will. It also increases appetite, which promotes gains, and improves aerobic performance, which may be wishful as testosterone normally has an opposite effect.
Of course testosterone Enanthate can be stacked with any number of compounds apart from these, but these make the best match. When stacking with testosterone, one needs to look at what the other compound can bring. Either it has a characteristic that testosterone doesn't have, or its nominally safer. The testosterone will bring all the mass, so adding another steroid to enhance mass alone, is futile. More testosterone is the best remedy for that.
One needs to be familiar with a host of other compounds when using long-acting testosterone esters however. First of all, anti-estrogens. The rate of aromatization of testosterone is quite great, so water retention and fat gain are a fact and gyno is never far off. If problems occur one is best to start on 20 mg of Nolvadex per day and stay on that until problems subside. I wouldn't stay on it for a whole cycle, as it may reduce the gains. In terms of an aromatase blocker, testosterone is one of the few compounds where Proviron may actually be preferred over arimidex . The proviron will not only reduce estrogen and can be used for extended time on a testosterone cycle, it will also bind with great affinity to sex-hormone binding proteins in the blood and will allow for a higher level of free testosterone in the body, thus improving gains. Usually 50-100 mg will suffice, the lower end is preferred for maximal results since estrogen plays a key role in gains, but those more worried about estrogen should opt for a higher dose.
For those worried about androgenic side-effects (hair loss, prostate hypertrophy, deepening of voice), one can utilize the hair loss treatment finasteride. This blocks the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme and stops the conversion of testosterone to the more androgenic compound DHT. I'm not a big fan of this, because DHT reduces estrogenic bloat, increases free levels of testosterone and is a very potent androgen that is 3-4 times stronger than testosterone. Those worried about hair loss however, may want to opt for arimidex as their anti-aromatase, since Proviron is a form of DHT after all.
After a cycle, mainly due to the high aromatization and increased levels of estradiol in the blood after discontinuing, natural testosterone levels will be severely suppressed. This means steps need to be taken to assure the quick return of natural testosterone, or we stand to lose a lot of the gains we made while using testosterone. Since it's a non-toxic, potent mass-builder its mostly used in long 10-12 week cycles. So some testicular shrinkage will have occurred too. Its very important that people see that HCG and Nolvadex/clomid are essential as a post-cycle therapy, and that both are equally important in achieving our goal. HCG injections should be started the last week of the cycle and continued for 3-4 weeks, using 1500-3000 IU every 5-6 days. HCG will act as an alternative to LH and start the endogenous testosterone cycle, thereby increasing testicle size once again. Then about 2 weeks after the last shot of testosterone is given, Nolvadex/Clomid cycle should be started. 40 mg of Nolva or 150 mg of Clomid per day for two weeks, followed by two more weeks with either 20 mg of Nolva or 100 mg of Clomid per day should be adequate. Always remember that HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone itself and should be discontinued at least 2 weeks prior to finishing Nolvadex/Clomid.
PCT (post cycle treatment)
Below you'll find starting times for your PCT based on the active life of each compound. The active life is the duration of time it takes for the exogenous hormone to be absorbed, utilized, and expelled; no longer being bioavailable. Keep in mind that active life is an approximation which is dependant on dose, ester, as well as the individuals metabolization of the compound ; but for the moderate user, these are as close to precise as you'll find.
Anadrol /Anapolan: 24 hours after last administration
Deca: 21 days after last injection
Dianabol : 24 hours after last administration
Equipoise: 21 days after last injection
Fina: 3 days after last injection
Primobolan depot: 14 days after last injection
Sustanon: 18 days after last injection
Testosterone Cypionate: 18 days after last injection
Testosterone Enanthate: 14 days after last injection
Testosterone Propionate : 3 days after last injection
Testosterone Suspension : 24 hours after last administration
Winstrol : 24 hours after last administration
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it"-Aristotle
"The secret of discipline is motivation. When a man is sufficiently motivated, discipline will take care of itself."-Albert Einstein
Dont forget PCT!
02-01-2005, 03:30 PM #7
You dont have to apologize bro. Read up and learn
02-01-2005, 03:32 PM #8
Sc*ew it..sorry for the long post...cant remember the links?
PCT (post cycle treatment)
Nolvadex or clomid
While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.
But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids . After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.
Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron , Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.
This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.
So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.
Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use , but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.
Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.
Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.
Stacking and Use:
If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.
Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.
For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.
Human chorionic gonadotrophin is a strange hormone. Its only found in the placenta of pregnant women. For women it has fairly little use if any however, but to the male athlete it has one interesting property. It can mimic the action of luteinizing hormone (LH) in the body. LH is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicles. The sex hormones in the body work via a negative feedback system, where too much sex hormone (like anabolic androgenic steroids and estrogens) causes a signal to the brain to stop the release of LH. During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.
Since it forms testosterone in the body to some extent, it can impart certain performance enhancing properties, but usually these are not major. The side-effects accompanied with HCG use (usually androgenic such as extreme acne), its low rate of effect, the cost compared to more effective steroids and so on will mostly keep athletes from using it for that purpose. Moreover it can be tested for in athletic competitions, so most will stay clear of it. But to the steroid user HCG is an almost essential part of a cycle. Because of its effect on bringing testicle size back it can promote the return of natural testosterone, since the first natural signals can immediately deliver a higher yield of testosterone in the body. And getting natural testosterone back online after a cycle is crucial, especially if you intend to keep most of your hard-earned gains. Without adequate natural endocrine response you will not be able to maintain a mass that was higher than before.
The downside is that HCG too is suppressive of natural testosterone. Because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain of command, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is secreted from the hypothalamus. And since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex. When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.
Also important to take into account : using HCG for too long a period of time or in doses that are excessively high, can desensitize the testicles to the effect of LH and would put your right back where you started from. Basically that would mean you spent money to no avail. In terms of side-effects one should expect some androgenic signs such as acne and there is a risk for hair loss or prostate hypertrophy, but in most cases this compound will be used for 3-4 weeks, so these should not manifest themselves to any serious degree. There will also be some estrogen build-up, but since the user HAS to be on clomid or Nolvadex, this should not become apparent either. Next to this, HCG being a fertility drug, one should be aware that increased blood pressure and blood clotting can occur. HCG is clinically used to make women ovulate, or to invoke birth in pregnant women.
Stacking and Use:
You would normally opt to use HCG after you've done a long cycle, usually 8 weeks or more. Note that almost all proper cycles are 8 weeks or more in length, its just that some beginners have a phobia of needles and opt to waste their time with an all oral stack first, in which case the cycle wouldn't be longer than 6-7 weeks. In these cases too HCG can have a use, but most of the time testicular atrophy will not have progressed to such a stage that it is an absolute necessity. In any case, you should run it about 3 weeks, totaling about 4 shots. One every 5-6 days. Start off with one shot of 3000 IU somewhere in the last week of your stack, then another 3000 5 days later, then drop to 1500 5 days later and a last shot of 1500 6 days after that. Sometime after the second or third shot, therapy with Nolvadex or clomid should be commenced and continued for 4-5 weeks. How to do this, I refer you to the Nolva/clomid profile.
In any case, I'll repeat it again, since it is important. HCG IS and always will be an important part of post-cycle recovery, but it should never be run too long or at too high a dose and should always be accompanied by the use of either Clomid or Nolvadex. The use of Clomid or Nolvadex should also be continued at least 2 weeks after HCG is discontinued to avoid the HCG causing problems.
again... sorry for the long post...cant remember the links?
Hope this helps
02-01-2005, 03:35 PM #9
bump for that sick avatar...no worries ....ask and learn thats what we all do...
02-01-2005, 03:44 PM #10Originally Posted by BIGPAPAPUMP77
02-01-2005, 03:54 PM #11
We all were newbs at one time. Happy Growing bro!
02-01-2005, 03:55 PM #12Originally Posted by jbone30
02-01-2005, 03:59 PM #13Originally Posted by asymmetrical1
02-01-2005, 04:00 PM #14
He probably copied and pasted it.
02-01-2005, 04:04 PM #15Originally Posted by GetPumped
02-01-2005, 04:09 PM #16Originally Posted by frank_frank
02-01-2005, 10:29 PM #17Originally Posted by jbone30
bwahaha sorry i as just trying to clerify..lol
02-01-2005, 10:41 PM #18
ull learn alot here we all and i mean all(for all u out there that think ur flawless) have posted somthing that made us feel and or look dumb so its all good bro just read up and learn this is the best site out there and there is a bunch of cool cats on here so im sure everyone has forgivin u LOL good luck in ur reasearch and u may also pm me if u have a ? that ur not to sure if u should post it up ill be happy to help
02-02-2005, 06:12 PM #19Anabolic Member
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- Apr 2004
Yeah, bro - It's all good. Glad you're aboard and good luck to you - sounds like you've got the right attitude.
jbone30 - great info in those posts, bro.
02-02-2005, 06:36 PM #20
I like you.
02-02-2005, 06:40 PM #21Originally Posted by Nworb
LOL.... j/k bro! no need to b sorry eveyone was a newbie asking questions b4.
02-02-2005, 07:05 PM #22Associate Member
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- Jun 2003
The only stupid questions are the ones not asked. LOL! Yeah whatever!
02-03-2005, 12:14 PM #23Associate Member
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- Jan 2005
thank you all for being so understanding and thanks for that great info
02-03-2005, 12:29 PM #24
that info rocks, thanks for that
02-03-2005, 01:32 PM #25
Hey, bro, it's guy with your attitude that will be a life long member on AR. It's the cocky new guys that don't listen that drive us crazy!!!
Any questions, feel free to PM me
Welcome to AR
02-03-2005, 02:08 PM #26Member
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- Dec 2004
get pumped where did you get that pic of that ass? lol that thing is incredible
02-03-2005, 03:33 PM #27
yeh i did that too bro but so long as your respectful and dont go shooting your mouth/keys off the bros in here are glad to help, i fvcing love this place
02-03-2005, 06:07 PM #28
Cool bro, luv the post and luv the attitude!
I thought the thread would go : "NOW THAT I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION I NEED YOUR OPINION ON THIS D-BOL ONLY CYCLE! AND DON'T gIVE ME SH!T ABOUT LOSINg ALL MY gAINS!"
02-03-2005, 06:26 PM #29Anabolic Member
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02-03-2005, 07:07 PM #30Originally Posted by bor
02-04-2005, 01:28 AM #31
The funny thing is I bumped into one of those just as I finished writing this post
02-04-2005, 01:31 AM #32Anabolic Member
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- Apr 2004
Every time you turn around, right?
02-04-2005, 02:00 AM #33
02-04-2005, 02:15 AM #34Anabolic Member
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Ain't it great??
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