need help on end of cycle please

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 05:04 PM

IF I AM USING LETRO AND CLOMID DURING PCT, WHY USE NOLVA?
ALSO, WHAT KIND OF REBOUND EFFECT WILL I GET FROM LETRO?
I DONT WANT ANYMORE BLOATING, I REALLY REGRET I DID THIS CYCLE.
I AM STILL FEELING THE TREN E AND HAVENT STARTED PCT YET.
I WOULD HAVE CAME OUT LEANER IF I STAYED NATURAL.

i always cycle 6-8 weeks, BUT this time i took TREN ENANTHATE , total cycle length was 7 weeks, the tren made me feel like ****, my cycle was wacko, i did test e for the first 3 weeks

week 1: 1g TEST E - 375mg TREN E
week 2: 500mg TEST E - 375mg TREN E
week 3: 500mg TEST E - 375mg TREN E
week 4: NO TEST - TREN 375mg
week 5: TEST E 125mg - 500mg TREN E
week 6: NO TEST - 500mg TREN E
week 7: NO TEST - 250mg TREN E

THE WHOLE TIME I USED LIQUIDEX AT .5-1mg ED AND THE BLOAT NEVER WENT DOWN. i started to think it was fake. when i dropped the test/liquidex at the same time, the bloat was still there, reduced a bit, then got worse. i am now in the 9th week (if i was still on) AND IM STILL PUMPED, FULL, VASCULAR, BLOATED IN FACE/NECK.

the TREN E is STILL in me, im figuring by the following monday it should be gone. so far it has been 19 days since i shot 250mg tren e and still feel it. i was thinking of taking some letro now and start clomid in a week?

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 05:22 PM

Why did you run the tren 2 (or practically speaking, 4) weeks longer than the test?? I'm really confused as to what you were thinking, bro.

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 05:25 PM

Honestly, bro, you made a number of mistakes with this cycle - it doesn't surprise me at all you feel like shiit. What you did here is beyond me, but you live and learn, right?

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 05:28 PM

heres what happened. im dieting and the whole time i was bloated and thought it was the test, so i decided to drop it. then i dropped the adex thinking tren wont bloat me at all and keep me dry, but that still bloated me (progestin im sure) or i still have estrogen/progesterone in my body floating AND also since the tren enth is still IN ME, that would bloat me too since i look pumped,full,vascular and usually when i look like that (on test) i bloat in my face. but i never bloated from tren ace. something about this cycle bloated me that shouldnt and i did not lose as much fat as i should have. MY DIET/CARDIO WAS FLAWLESS. it was pre-contest diet, im still doing it and still bloated. im wondering if i can take letro now maybe for a week and run clomid afterwards with nolvadex ? to not get the rebound effect.

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 05:40 PM

Letro probably won't even kick in in one week. For this cycle, you would have probably been fine if you'd started letro before your cycle and run all the way through. The gram of test your first week probably didn't help your bloat whatsoever. Prop would've been perfect.

You should already be well into PCT - you said it's been 19 days since your last inj. Enanthate has a 10.5 day half-life. I would hit the clomid immediately. I'd hit the nolva and l-dex immediately - the l-dex will take some time to kick in as well, but not as long as letro.

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 06:06 PM

i didnt get letro til recently. the thing is, i still feel the tren in me. i look like im on gear still. that pumped/full look. so if i take letro, it;ll kick in a week you say? then start clomid and nolva and run letro through. is it a bad idea to run AI's during PCT? because if u have too low of estrogen wouldnt your body have a hard time bringing up test, unless the clomid/nolva just do it anyway? i want to kill the bloat that i have now from tren and since the tren will probably only be in me for another week or 10 days tops (total of 28 days since shot) by then i wont have any estrogen/progesterone in my body in which i can then start PCT. right?

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 06:11 PM

i was using adex on cycle. never did i think i would BLOAT? i took test with tren with adex before. short esters though and i arimidex tabs, the real ones. either my adex was fake (meaning i have a ton of estro/progestro in my body from the test/tren) AND/OR the tren enth is still in my body which means gear makes you hold water (true in my body so it would in my face-clearly im on on any anti-e's or AI's so it CAN make me hold water in my face/neck)

the water in my face/neck and bloat in general ****ed up my cycle. the adex should have worked but it didnt, i threw that away and the tren as well.

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 06:12 PM

No, bro. You really need to do some research - you're all messed up on this. Let me give you some links - you've got too many problems for me to straighten you out. Hold on.

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 06:21 PM

ok, the main problem here is the bloat, the tren is still in me and i need to normalize as quickly as possible. i understand some people run just nolva during pct. i have been reading links, i really need real life exp. i dont have much exp with pct as i dont really do it. ive only cycled a couple times though. ive been reading this link http://bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm it states nolva should be used for PCT. and when reading on femara, you can use it during cycle and in the PCT.

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 06:28 PM

When to start PCT
PCT start times

How to run PCT
Pheedno's PCT

All you need to know about letro
***Letro(Ferma) Update Not Good*****

Read those and then we can talk about the nuances of the cycle you just ran.

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 06:40 PM

i read those but a question, this one:

"Femara (AKA Letrozole ), is more effective than Arimidex in it's ability to pass thru the cell membrane of lipid (fat) cells and inhibit the activity of aromatase -- Arimidex is just over 80% effective at inhibiting aromatase, Femara is around 95-97% Levels of estrogen are totally undetectable in any patients taking Letrozole, and it has even been used to increase testosterone to normal levels (from sub-normal ones) and increase LH, FSH and SHBG (Epilepsy Behav. 2004 Apr;5(2):260-3). Other than that, both of these drugs stop the process of aromatization, rather than just blocking (competing for, if you prefer) the receptors as Clomid and Nolvadex do. An effective dose of Letrozole is 1-2.5 mg/day (I use 1mg/day), but be forewarned, it can kill your sex drive, and could decrease IGF levels. On the other hand, I've seen studies where it increases IGF levels. Also worth noting is that there's a rebound effect when you come off Letrozol. What can I say? Letrozole's effects on serum lipids (cholesterol, both HDL and LDL) are, in the words of one researcher: "inconsistent. "And compared with Aromasin and Arimidex, In non-cellular systems, letrozole is 2-5 times more potent than anastrozole and exemestane in its inhibition of the aromatase enzyme and activity, and in cellular systems it is 10-20x more potent! Letrozole (2.5mg daily) also achieved a much greater suppression of the plasma concentrations of both estrone and estrone sulphate (estrogens) than anastrozole (1mg daily) and a greater inhibition of in vivo aromatization also (sorry for the geek-speak.it's over for now.). ( J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2003 Oct;87(1):35-45.)"Finally, you need to take Letrozole for 60 days to get a steady blood plasma level, and it has a whopping 2-4 day (!) ½ life (Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S.). "

Letrozole can also be used in really small amounts...in fact, you can achieve maximum suppression of aromatase at a mere 100mcg (thats not a typo) per day!
( J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60. )

In addition,

It would seem that you can get by on .5mgs/day...or less! And, just like myself (and Lion) have been saying...you can probably (maybe?) use it to combat both estrogen and progesterone! Yeah...it's an anti-progestin, an anti-estrogen, and an aromatase inhibitor....! And finally, not only can it suppress aromatazation and reduce estrogen levels, but it may even reduce progesterone levels (it did so in tumors in one study, any way)
(
Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol. 2002 Nov 15;105(2):161-5. )

IT STATES IT CAN BE USED TO INCREASE TEST TO NORMAL LEVELS? so why use nolva/clomid? also just to note, my balls never shrank, im not completely limp, but my sex drive is lower, etc.

so the proper PCT is l-dex,nolva/clomid. can i use letro instead of l-dex? i just got letro and dumped my l-dex so....

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Starkraven

i read those but a question, this one:

"Femara (AKA Letrozole ), is more effective than Arimidex in it's ability to pass thru the cell membrane of lipid (fat) cells and inhibit the activity of aromatase -- Arimidex is just over 80% effective at inhibiting aromatase, Femara is around 95-97% Levels of estrogen are totally undetectable in any patients taking Letrozole, and it has even been used to increase testosterone to normal levels (from sub-normal ones) and increase LH, FSH and SHBG (Epilepsy Behav. 2004 Apr;5(2):260-3). Other than that, both of these drugs stop the process of aromatization, rather than just blocking (competing for, if you prefer) the receptors as Clomid and Nolvadex do. An effective dose of Letrozole is 1-2.5 mg/day (I use 1mg/day), but be forewarned, it can kill your sex drive, and could decrease IGF levels. On the other hand, I've seen studies where it increases IGF levels. Also worth noting is that there's a rebound effect when you come off Letrozol. What can I say? Letrozole's effects on serum lipids (cholesterol, both HDL and LDL) are, in the words of one researcher: "inconsistent. "And compared with Aromasin and Arimidex, In non-cellular systems, letrozole is 2-5 times more potent than anastrozole and exemestane in its inhibition of the aromatase enzyme and activity, and in cellular systems it is 10-20x more potent! Letrozole (2.5mg daily) also achieved a much greater suppression of the plasma concentrations of both estrone and estrone sulphate (estrogens) than anastrozole (1mg daily) and a greater inhibition of in vivo aromatization also (sorry for the geek-speak.it's over for now.). ( J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2003 Oct;87(1):35-45.)"Finally, you need to take Letrozole for 60 days to get a steady blood plasma level, and it has a whopping 2-4 day (!) ½ life (Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S.). "

Letrozole can also be used in really small amounts...in fact, you can achieve maximum suppression of aromatase at a mere 100mcg (thats not a typo) per day!
( J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60. )

In addition,

It would seem that you can get by on .5mgs/day...or less! And, just like myself (and Lion) have been saying...you can probably (maybe?) use it to combat both estrogen and progesterone! Yeah...it's an anti-progestin, an anti-estrogen, and an aromatase inhibitor....! And finally, not only can it suppress aromatazation and reduce estrogen levels, but it may even reduce progesterone levels (it did so in tumors in one study, any way)
(
Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol. 2002 Nov 15;105(2):161-5. )

IT STATES IT CAN BE USED TO INCREASE TEST TO NORMAL LEVELS? so why use nolva/clomid? also just to note, my balls never shrank, im not completely limp, but my sex drive is lower, etc.

so the proper PCT is l-dex,nolva/clomid. can i use letro instead of l-dex? i just got letro and dumped my l-dex so....

First off, this was a clinical cancer research study. They weren't dealing with the same types of hormone levels as we are. So when they say "it has even been used to increase testosterone to normal levels (from sub-normal ones)" -that doesn't necessarily mean it will work in the context of an AAS cycle, or that it is the BEST compound for that purpose. I'm not an expert on femara - but my opinion is that even if it can restore test levels, it might not do it rapidly enough for our purposes. Stick to clomid for that, and if you choose to use femara in PCT - hope for a synergistic effect. It seems like most guys are saying to run femara through a cycle, but not in PCT, just fyi. I haven't read anything convincing as to why it wouldn't work post cycle, aside from the estrogen rebound effect, which can be managed by tapering off the doseage and using nolva. There are some guys running it just into PCT, then shifting to Nolva.

I haven't read anything else to indicate letro is a substitute for clomid - I wouldn't try it.

I recommended l-dex to help with your bloat since you seem so concerned about it. A lot of guys don't use it at all and just run clomid/nolva. I do use it when I'm not using femara. IMO, you've got bigger issues than your bloat, which will go away on it's own. You need to get your test levels up immediately - it's been 19 days since last injection - I don't care if you still feel the tren , like you say - If it were me, I would be chugging down 100g of clomid immediately.

As to whether you can add letro now... If the study is correct: "Finally, you need to take Letrozole for 60 days to get a steady blood plasma level, and it has a whopping 2-4 day ½ life (Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S.)." - just how exactly will that help you now? Use the clomid and nolva, and if you didn't actually pitch the l-dex, you can use that too.

I have inquired as to whether taking larger doses of femara will increase plasma levels more rapidly, but the question is still out there.

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 07:43 PM

yeah i threw away the l-dex. something fishy about it. i used arimidex in the past but with nolv/prov. as soon as i added the arim, the bloat was gone. this was on 100mg testolent ed though (test phenyl-prop). but the l-dex i had now, i had it for a year to begin with, and i just dont think it worked this time. it could have been underdosed or a bad batch perhaps.

i cant believe femara has such a long half-life of 2-4 days.

i do want to get my test levels up immediately. ill get some nolva and clomid and start on them. ill also take the letro with it and just run the nolva 2 weeks past the letro. i just do NOT understand WHERE the bloat came from, WHY IT HASNT LEFT, and WHY THE TREN IS STILL IN ME. i do understand it has the enth ester and everyone metabolizes gear at a different rate (me being slowly for sure)

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 07:44 PM

Good luck with it, bro. Hope everything turns out all right.

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 07:46 PM

im sure it will. once i took test/dbol with no pct and still recovered in 2 weeks. THIS time however im on tren and tren enth to be exact and ran it for 7 weeks (still in me maybe til the end of week 10) and thats quite a while to be shut down on tren so my recovery might take longer. but ive never done a solid PCT before with nolva/clomid/letro etc.

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 07:53 PM

I don't remember if you mentioned what kind of gains you saw on this cycle.

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 08:04 PM

i was dieting so i noticed i am more muscular, leaner and stronger. my strength was going up. STILL has not gone down although the past week or so the strength GAINS stopped but im not losing any strength or muscle or anything. id say the gains were good for dieting, but not worth the mental sides i had with tren and the bloating from either of them. even though i was bloated, i can tell i am a little leaner but i bet i would have lost more fat if i had never done this cycle. my program is intense. but i cant see my fat loss with all this bloat.

all i know is i will not be using tren again. test is fine with me. i know when i use test and adex i dont bloat, but something about this cycle doesnt make sense so i decided to abort it and here i am now. i threw away the tren/adex. its unreal how i can still feel the tren enth. but enth is a real long ester so it might take til 4 weeks OFF to be completely off it. i will get the nolva/clomid soon and start on them ALONG WITH THE LETRO 1.25mg EOD or E3D. ive never used the letro before.

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 08:09 PM

was the ldex legit?

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 08:26 PM

i honestly dont even know. i dont think so. but the guys rep is solid. still, he could have messed up and not put anything in it or maybe the progestin from tren did most/all of the bloating. i didnt bloat on 75mg tren ace ed with 100mg test prop ed. but then again i spoke with one guy he told me tren enth bloats, i didnt believe it til i saw it. if im on test/adex i shouldnt bloat. but i had the tren in there and still i am bloated in my face/neck and my body is more pumped and all, i still feel like im on gear. even when i train, i feel strong.

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 08:50 PM

would it be okay to start taking 1.25mg femara eod or E3D tonight and then start the clomid and nolva in a couple days?

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Starkraven

i honestly dont even know. i dont think so. but the guys rep is solid. still, he could have messed up and not put anything in it or maybe the progestin from tren did most/all of the bloating. i didnt bloat on 75mg tren ace ed with 100mg test prop ed. but then again i spoke with one guy he told me tren enth bloats, i didnt believe it til i saw it. if im on test/adex i shouldnt bloat. but i had the tren in there and still i am bloated in my face/neck and my body is more pumped and all, i still feel like im on gear. even when i train, i feel strong.

I've never heard of bloating from tren ace, but test prop doesn't bloat anything like test e, so it's obviously a result of the longer ester. It seems like tren could act the same way.

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Starkraven

would it be okay to start taking 1.25mg femara eod or E3D tonight and then start the clomid and nolva in a couple days?

Well, I guess it will have to be, since you don't have the clomid or nolva on hand. You will definitely want to have your PCT lined up in advance for your next cycle. Again, on the femara, it could take some time to kick in, so if you're dead set on running it for PCT, I would start it immediately. Even though I don't have definitive information on whether higher doses can get it active quicker, if I were in your position, I would consider upping the doses to at least ED, if not 2.5mg/ED. JMO.

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 09:46 PM

thanks for everything whitey. you've been a great help.

**Whitey** · 02-05-2005, 09:53 PM

No problem, man. I hate to see a cycle get f**ked up, and I'm sure you'll plan better next time. Best of luck to you, bro.

**Starkraven** · 02-05-2005, 09:57 PM

i will. im going to do the PCT then stick with my plan naturally. when i get lean enough to around 9% BF, i might get on 500mg test e or better yet prop with letro. i stick with test only from now on. i did it before with great results. test is easy on the body, its a natural hormone i feel great on it, sex drive up, etc. tren is just something else. thanks again.