HCG and Clomid

[bigwillie78]

Can somebody please give me suggestions on how to administer (as in how much per day and on what days) of HCG .I plan on taking the shots 3 weeks after my last shot of deca .Also, do I just take the clomid after the HCG?Thanks

[Methuselah]

Use the HCG 2 weeks after your last shot of test. If your using deca alone, waiting 3 weeks should be fine. Start your next cycle one week after your last shot of HCG.

The protocol is to use an insulin pin (1cc, 29G x 1/2") and inject it subcutaneously next to your belly button. 1000 iu's per day for 10 days. You mix the 10 ml of sterile water with 10,000 iu's of HCG using your 3cc syringe and 21G x 1 1/2" needle; thus making 1cc = 1000 iu's. The needle/syringe that you use to mix is not important. Swirl the bottle of the final solution, don't shake it. Store the mixture in the fridge.

[Dr.Evil]

what's the logic behind using hcg post cycle?

[4plates]

Originally posted by Methuselah
Use the HCG 2 weeks after your last shot of test. If your using deca alone, waiting 3 weeks should be fine. Start your next cycle one week after your last shot of HCG.

The protocol is to use an insulin pin (1cc, 29G x 1/2") and inject it subcutaneously next to your belly button. 1000 iu's per day for 10 days. You mix the 10 ml of sterile water with 10,000 iu's of HCG using your 3cc syringe and 21G x 1 1/2" needle; thus making 1cc = 1000 iu's. The needle/syringe that you use to mix is not important. Swirl the bottle of the final solution, don't shake it. Store the mixture in the fridge.

i dont think he talking about GH,
you dont need hcg willie,unless you are doing a cycle that is very long,
clomid will do,use it 3 wks after your last shot of deca@300 mg day 1,100 mg for 10 days,and 50 mg for 10 more days

[Methuselah]

HCG post cycle stimulates your LH Hormones and FSH to produce natural testosterone . Therefore restoring your hypothalimus/testicluar axis.

I found this at http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/clomid-hcg.asp

For the record, I disagree with their opinion of HCG. I also believe that you are still on cycle for two weeks after your last shot of long ester compounds such as deca and certain testosterones.

Using HCG
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid , but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).

Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.

Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid
Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic oestrogen. It is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low fertility females. Another generic name is Serophene.

Most anabolic steroids , especially the androgens, cause inhibition of the body's own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes off a steroid cycle, natural testosterone production is zero and the levels of the steroids taken in the blood are diminishing. This leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic hormones in the blood high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as a result, much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to be lost.

Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone. This results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses.

Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism. Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need Clomid or not.

Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to oestrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of oestrogen that has aromatised from testosterone.

It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ) are far more effective anti-oestrogens.

Clomid During A Cycle
When we use anabolic steroids , the level of androgens in the body rises causing the androgen receptors to become more highly activated, and through the hypothalamus-pituitary feedback pathway, a signal tells our testes to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has far higher than normal levels of androgens and, as long as this level is high enough, Clomid will not help to keep natural testosterone production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off, in theory.

Some heavy androgen users, however, do advocate a small burst of Clomid mid-cycle, though it must be hard for them to say if it really of any benefit, due to the amount of gear they are using. Therefore, the only purpose of Clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen.


When To Start Clomid
The correct time to commence Clomid depends on the type and cycle of steroids you have been using. Different steroids have different half-lifes (indicates the time a substance diminishes in blood), and Clomid administration should be taken accordingly.

As we have seen above, Clomid taken when androgen levels in our blood are still high, will be a waste. It is crucial to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing our Clomid therapy. However, if taken too late we could possibly lose gains.

The list below determines when you should start Clomid. Select from the list any steroids you've used in your cycle and whichever one has the latest starting point is the time to commence Clomid. For example, if Dianabol , Sustanon and Winstrol were cycled, the time for administering Clomid should be 3 weeks post cycle, as Sustanon remains active in the body for the longest period of time.

Steroid Time after
last administration Length of
Clomid Cycle
Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks
Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks
Equipoise : 17 - 21 days 3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone : 3 days 3 weeks
Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks
Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate : 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate /Testaviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate : 3 days 3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension : 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks
Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks

How To Take Clomid
Clomid has a long half-life (possibly 5 days), so there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. If Sustanon has been used and Clomid is commenced 3 weeks after the last injection, I would estimate that androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals. If androgen levels are still a little high, we need to start at a high enough amount that will work or help, even if androgen levels are still a little high. Try 300mg on day 1; then use 100mg for the next 10 days; followed by 50mg for 10 days.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by 4plates


i dont think he talking about GH,
you dont need hcg willie,unless you are doing a cycle that is very long,
clomid will do,use it 3 wks after your last shot of deca@300 mg day 1,100 mg for 10 days,and 50 mg for 10 more days

I agree. Comid will do. The HCG will plump your nuts right up though. I'm going to try both next time, starting clomid the day following my last shot of HCG. Then I'm taking a 4 week break before my next cycle.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Methuselah

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.

this is why i think hcg use post cycle sucks.

btw, hcg doesn't stimulate LH, it mimics LH.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Methuselah

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this is why i think hcg use post cycle sucks.

btw, hcg doesn't stimulate LH, it mimics LH.

this is why i think hcg use post cycle sucks.

btw, hcg doesn't stimulate LH, it mimics LH.

That's the part I disagree with.

[Dr.Evil]

i made 2 statements in my post. do you disagree with both of them or one of them and why?

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
i made 2 statements in my post. do you disagree with both of them or one of them and why?

I disagree that it sucks post cycle because that's what my doc says to do and it works for me.

After researching, I think that clomid is better and am going to use both. Certainly, the clomid does work so there's no risk in using it.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Methuselah

I disagree that it sucks post cycle because that's what my doc says to do and it works for me.

hcg will certainly "work" much like a bridge would, but post cycle is a time for recovery of your hpt-axis. hcg will not help your hpta recover, instead it will hinder it.

if you choose to use hcg to get your nuts back i would suggest using it during cycle because it's very effective for that purpose, but getting your nuts back is a whole different story than endocrine recovery.

[4plates]

i see this same post all the time
hgc will only get you testicles back to their original size,i will not aid in getting you natural teat levels back.
if you are going to use hcg ust it mid cycle after teticular atrophy has set in.
if not they will get back to normal on thier own post cycle

[xman]

After 5 cycles and putting on an average of 20lbs each time, and then losing it all every time, even with clomid and following other advice from this board, the only thing that helped me keep any gains is hcg .

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by xman
After 5 cycles and putting on an average of 20lbs each time, and then losing it all every time, even with clomid and following other advice from this board, the only thing that helped me keep any gains is hcg.

That's what the doc and my trainer tells me. Amen.

Although I don't see the clomid hurting anything.

[bigwillie78]

So if I have a couple more weeks of deca , should I take the hcg now while Im on then take the clomid 3-4 weeks after the last shot?Or am I just wasting the HCG
Thanks

[Methuselah]

No, do the hcg 14 or 21 days after the deca , do the clomid the day after your last shot of HCG.

Some may say to do the HCG now, i disagree. Frankly, before I joined the board, I never heard of doing clomid for post cycle; only for anti-e (that's what my doc says--all my doc does is hormone replacement therapy, nothing else). I like what I hear about clomid though and am going to do it in the way I described above; why not, it's cheap and won't hurt anything. I'm still going to start my cycle at the 4th week like the instructions say, I believe the clomid will be a nice bridge while waiting for the test and deca to kick in.

Here are the instructions from my doctor. Please note that he told me to modify this a little and to mix 10cc's of sterile water to 10,000 iu's of HCG for 1000 iu's per day for ten days.

[Dr.Evil]

methuselah:

even the image and articles you attached clearly states that hcg should be used with continued use of exogenous test, not after it has stopped (post cycle).

[Methuselah]

Evil, please read it again. Continued use is described as 10 on 4 off for an entire year.

[thecoachman]

Met, are you done w/ your cycle already?

I plan on running some HCG during my cycle and clomid post. If you want to know how it works out for me?

if not, that cool, good luck to you......

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Methuselah
Continued use is described as 10 on 4 off for an entire year.

i didn't realize 10 on 4 off is what you had in mind for your cycles. in that case hcg use in the way you described is perfect. i personally prefer to have my time off be at least 2x the length of my time on, but i'm sure our goals are completely different.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by thecoachman
Met, are you done w/ your cycle already?

I plan on running some HCG during my cycle and clomid post. If you want to know how it works out for me?

if not, that cool, good luck to you......

5 more weeks to go.

PM me. We can discuss it all day long, but results are the best measure. I'm very interested.

[thecoachman]

Don't know about all day long but when I start HCG I will let you know what's going down, or, puffin up, what ever.....

check you box....

[Methuselah]

Clomid is the anti-estrogen of choice for improving recovery of natural testosterone production after a cycle, improving testosterone production of endurance athletes, and is also effective in reducing risk of gynecomastia during a cycle employing aromatizable steroids .

While it has been claimed that Clomid "stimulates" production of LH and therefore of testosterone, in fact Clomid’s activity is achieved not by stimulation of the hypothalamus and pituitary, but by blocking their inhibition by estrogen.

Clomid is a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist (activator/blocker) which, when bound to the estrogen receptor, puts it in a somewhat different conformation (shape) than does estradiol. The estrogen receptor requires binding of an estrogen or drug at its binding site and also the binding of any of several cofactors at different sites. Without the binding of the cofactor, the estrogen receptor is inactive. Different tissues use different cofactors. Some of these cofactors are able to bind to the estrogen receptor/Clomid complex, but others are blocked due to the change in shape. The result is that in some tissues Clomid acts as an antagonist -- the cofactor used in that tissue cannot bind and so the receptor remains inactive -- and in others Clomid acts as an agonist (activator), because the cofactors used in that tissue are able to bind.

Clomid is an effective antagonist in the hypothalamus and in breast tissue. It is an effective agonist in bone tissue, and for improving blood cholesterol.

Clomid also has the property of reducing the adverse effect of exercise-induced damage of muscle tissue. This is very significant for endurance athletes but is not very significant, if at all significant, with reasonable weight training. Clomid does not perceptibly affect gains of the weight trainer either favorably or adversely in my experience.

The drug seems to have estrogenic effects on mood, which can be beneficial (improving relationships with women by improving empathy) or can yield depression or PMS-like symptoms, but for most users there is no significant effect either way.

The claim that duration of intake should not exceed 10-14 days is incorrect. Clinical studies with male patients have been for periods of a year or longer. This error probably originates from the fact that, for use in women, due to the menstrual cycle there would obviously be no point in trying to stimulate ovulation all four weeks of the month. Thus, use in women is limited to 10-14 days. That limitation is not because of toxicity.

Clomid is in fact useful throughout a cycle if aromatizable drugs are being used. I do think however that to be conservative, one should use it no more than 2/3 of the time throughout the year or a little less.

[Methuselah]

HCG is provided as a glycoprotein powder to be diluted with water, and acts in the body like LH, stimulating the testes to produce testosterone even when natural LH is not present or is deficient. It therefore is useful for maintaining testosterone production and/or testicle size during a steroid cycle. Use of this drug in the taper is rather counterproductive, since the resulting increased testosterone production is itself inhibitory to the hypothalamus and pituitary, delaying recovery. Thus, if this drug is used, it is preferably used during the cycle itself. A daily amount of 500 IU is generally sufficient, and in my opinion usage should not exceed 1000 IU per day.

Daily administration is superior to less frequent administration.

Doses over 1000 IU are noted for their tendency to cause or aggravate gynecomastia , and also act to desensitize the testicles to LH.

HCG may be injected intramuscularly, subcutaneously, or in a shallow injection about 1/4" deep with the needle going straight in. A 29 gauge insulin needle is recommended. Injection speed should be slow.

Some HCG products are diluted 5000 or even 10,000 IU per mL, while others are diluted 1000 IU per mL. So far as I know there is no need to make the preparation so dilute. Once mixed, the preparation should be refrigerated and used within a few weeks. The substance is also somewhat temperature sensitive before mixing and should not be exposed to excessive heat.

HCG does not correct the problem of progressively-decreasing ejaculatory volume that is typical during a steroid cycle. So far as I know the only cure is to go off-cycle and use Clomid, but it is possible that HMG, a related drug which works analogously to FSH might be useful during a cycle to treat this problem. HMG supports spermatogenesis and is commonly used in conjunction with HCG to treat male fertility problems. (Consider use of HMG to maintain ejaculatory volume to be a strictly past-the-cutting-edge hypothesis: I have not yet had the opportunity to test the matter.)

The athlete who would otherwise fail a urinary ratio test because of low epitestosterone may find HCG useful in increasing epitestosterone and therefore improving this ratio. A 500 IU dose is sufficient, but on the other hand, HCG itself is also banned by the IOC and is readily detected in urine.

HCG can also useful for returning testosterone to normal levels should levels be low post-cycle, or, with care, to increase levels from normal to high normal. Titration of the dose, by measuring T levels and then adjusting the HCG dose accordingly, is recommended for long term use.