Bush has taken away our right to choose.

**Glock-19** · 02-16-2005, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by 1victor

Hey I thought you were gonna work out? Get outta here!

heh I just finished bench, I got a gym in my guest house. Dam this winni is workin soo good.

**Pale Horse** · 02-16-2005, 09:44 PM

I have a dog in my guest house..........is a dog crate considered a guest house?

**gymbuff101** · 02-16-2005, 09:46 PM

ya i am sure bad things happen there it all comes back to the $$$$$$$ they are all bought and sold like pupets just like you boy G.W

**Pale Horse** · 02-16-2005, 09:49 PM

Now I won't stand for that one. Take it back or I will slap you with my 20" internet penis!

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by 1victor

Well this is one area I think I will stray from the course. They are after vitamins bro...........VITAMINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One person can buy a pill at 1 dollar a tab another at 5 dollars and yet another at 8. They are opportunists, preying on sick people, and with their new advertisind campaigns Joe Trailer Park sees the commercial and says "heck I need that!" goes in and asks the doc for an RX and we have another customer.

I firmly believe that many Americans are taking medicines that are unneccessary or danderous because of a speedy push through the FDA. Do you have any concept of what goes on in that place? BAD THINGS!!!!!! Very bad things.

Vic, bro, trust me if there is a person on this entire board that knows anything about this bro... its jdawg50.. trust me, and as a fellow conservative. I would suggest that you re-evaluate you current view on this topic. Vitamins bud, no, sorry there is very little money in Vitamins compared to novel compounds that treat real diseases. Vitamins have 0 patent value, and finding new patents for new molecules is where the money is at bro, not Vitamins. If you are truly a conservative that supports Bush, you would spend some time learning about the benifits of pharmaceuticals. Did your realize that for every 1$ spent on Pharmaceuticals you save 14$ on healthcare costs. Do the math and think about it. Big pharma is not the problem, they are the solution. They are there to help people, but the fact of the matter is they are also there to make a profit. if they do not make a profit, then guess what happens... not R&D. No R&D, no to products that save lives... end of story. That is why the vast majority of new meds come from the US. The vast majority of them used to come from Europe, but guess what happened over there to change things... socialized medicine, and goverments that were too restrictive on what the drug companies could do and charge for thier products....

**gymbuff101** · 02-16-2005, 09:51 PM

lol bro if you cant see that bush is an idiot then well what can i say..... lol

you know i am just causeing **** bro it is my opionion but i respect others to man i am just likeing this political post into that stuff lol

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 09:53 PM

http://www.managedcaremag.com/supple...ting_value.pdf

http://www.phrma.org/publications/pu...ulatevalue.cfm

How canwe calculate the value of pharmaceuticals?

Often, we can't. How do you calculate the value of the smile of a child who doesn't have to feel the pain of cancer? What's the value of giving a grandfather with congestive heart failure the energy to go camping with his grandson?

But, often, we can quantify the value of pharmaceuticals to patients, to society and to the health care system. Here are a few examples:

STROKE — A study sponsored by the National Institutes of Health found that treating stroke patients promptly with a clot-busting drug nets an average savings of $4,400 per patient by reducing the need for hospitalization, rehabilitation, and nursing home care (Figure 3).
According to NIH, greater use of this medicine could save the health care system more than $100 million a year.

ASTHMA — Medicines improve health outcomes for asthma patients and reduce total health care expenditures. The Virginia Health Outcomes Partnership program for Medicaid asthma patients demonstrated that increased use of asthma medications resulted in fewer emergency room visits and a major cost savings to the program. For patients in the demonstration program, emergency room and urgent care visits dropped by 42 percent.

MIGRAINE HEADACHES — A study published in the American Journal of Managed Care found that the total costs of treating patients for migraine headaches declined 41 percent as the result of a new drug. Another study showed that the drug saved employers $435 per month per employee due to a reduction in lost productivity costs, while the monthly cost of the drug per employee was only $44 (Figure 4).

CONGESTIVE HEART FAILURE — In a year-long disease management program for about 1,100 patients with congestive heart failure, Humana Hospitals found that pharmacy costs increased by 60 percent while hospital costs dropped 78 percent. Net savings: $9.3 million. The patients' ability to perform the activities of daily living went up 15 percent and the death rate dropped from the expected 25 percent to 10 percent.

ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE — Some 4 million Americans suffer from Alzheimer's disease, which costs society $100 billion a year. A significant part of that cost is devoted to nursing home care. But a recent study showed that patients treated with a new medicine were only half as likely to require costly nursing home care as patients who didn't get the medicine.

DIABETES AND DEPRESSION — According to a study published in Health Economics in 1996, prescription medicines helped reduce absenteeism in employees with several diseases, resulting in significant cost savings. For depression, the annual savings was $822 per employee, and for non-insulin dependent diabetes, the savings was $1,475 per employee.

ALLERGIES — A study by the consulting firm of William M. Mercer found that non-sedating pre-scription antihistamines, though more expensive than over-the-counter medicines, cut down on lost productivity and accidents. The study found that every $1 invested in non-sedating prescription medicines yielded a $3.07 return to the bottom line of a corporation due to increased productivity, decreased sick time and reduced accident costs.

OSTEOPOROSIS — Some 28 million Americans are at risk of developing osteoporosis, and 300,000 hip fractures occur every year because of this disease. Fortunately, several types of medi-cines are available to help prevent osteoporosis and to reduce the human and economic toll of this disease. According to a study published in 1992, a single hip fracture costs an estimated $41,000, while 15 years of treatment with a leading hormone replacement therapy medicine costs only about $3,000.
It's not always possible to calculate the value of pharmaceuticals, but experts and patient organizations have calculated the cost of leading diseases (Figure 5). As the population ages, the costs of caring for people with these and other diseases will escalate — unless we come up with cures or better treatments.We should examine every Medicare proposal by asking whether it would nurture or hurt the free-market environment needed to continue the remarkable progress brought about by drug research.

Figure 3

Use of Clot-Busting Drug Reduces Patients' Disability and Results in Net Savings to Health Systems

Source: Fagan, S.C., et al., "Cost-effectiveness of Tissue Plasminogen Activator for Acute Ischemic Stroke," Neurology, Vol. 50, pp. 883-889, 1998.

Figure 4

Migraine Medication Reduces Employers' Labor Costs and Decreases Lost Productivity

Source: Legg, R.F., et al., "Cost Benefit of Sumatriptan to an Employer," Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine, Vol. 39, No. 7, July 1997.

Figure 5

Prevalence, Cost, and Medicines in Development for Selected Major Diseases in the United States

Source: Compiled by PhRMA, 2000.

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by gymbuff101

lol bro if you cant see that bush is an idiot then well what can i say..... lol

you know i am just causeing **** bro it is my opionion but i respect others to man i am just likeing this political post into that stuff lol

Do some reading bro, then tell me who the idiot is

**gymbuff101** · 02-16-2005, 09:56 PM

dude whatever your opinion all good but you will not make me change my mind with some info that the very people i dont like wrote.....

**Pale Horse** · 02-16-2005, 09:56 PM

Okay, there are no patents on Vitamins...........yet. Once they are a controlled substance everyone will come up with their own "special" super duper awesome stuff. This will cost big time. You will see my friend. As far as profit and R&D I agree but there is NO need to charge six different prices for the same pill. If it's worth a dollar here it's worth a dollar everywhere. This is opportunistic and vial IMO.

As far as drugs as a whole I find it "interesting" and completely fuked up that "they" whoever they are keep finding things that are killing us and pills to cure it. By now we should all live to be 200 with the help of the wonder drugs. Cholesterol ranges keep getting lower and lower etc.... gimme a break.

***BajanBastard*** · 02-16-2005, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jdawg50

I love it how the president is the only one responsible for any law that makes it on the books. In case you missed your social studies class in 7th grade, there are a lot of other people that make laws.. IE, the house, and the Senate..... Are you saying the the Dems or liberals in congress, and everyone before and after would have allowed steriods to be legal? In case you missed it in the media, the vast majority of americans feel that AS is wrong. Open your eyes and look around bro, we are the minority, the people that do not want AS legal are the majority. If it were the other way around, it would be legal. Blame Bush all you want, the Majority of Parents in the US do not approve of their kids taking gear. They are the ones that show up and vote, and they are the ones that make push the laws that have made it threw congress and to the presidents desk.

The problem with you is that you seen to think Bush is GOD himself. I've noticed that one cannot be critical of Bush w/o you flying in with your insults. Can you tell me WHY steroids are class 3 drugs? You telling me that you should get the same jail time for steroids as meth, coke, heroin etc? The vast amount of Americans feel steroid is wrong because of media and all the armchair doctors says drug use to enhance performance is wrong. You telling me that is ok to make androgen use to make yourself look/feel better soooooooooooooo bad while on the other hand another form of steroid use is RAMPANT................birth control.

Now on to these other comments you made:

Efedra is not safe for certain types of people. IE Heart Disease, high blood pressure, Diabeties, pregnant woman.... and so on and so on....

The risk factors of ephedrine use is ON THE FVCKING BOTTLE!!. If you chose to use it still who fault is it?

If they want to make it illegal then I will go underground to get it just like my gear... big deal.

This is a stupid commet and you know it. You saying that you would not care if you had to risk jail time etc for a supp that's safe but was banned for NO legitimate health concern?

**Pale Horse** · 02-16-2005, 09:59 PM

Okay you get a slap from my 20" penis too, do not insult G.W.

**gymbuff101** · 02-16-2005, 10:03 PM

great point big k.l.g could not have said it any better

**Pale Horse** · 02-16-2005, 10:03 PM

Slap! Be quiet.

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

The problem with you is that you seen to think Bush is GODReally? Where did I say that? can you come up with a qoute???... yea didnt think so, Did is say anywhere that he was even close to perfect? The answer is no. Do I agree with W on the majority of issues.. yes.. so to refute your moronic statement.. no I do not consider him god, i consider him President of the US. himself.

I've noticed that one cannot be critical of Bush w/o you flying in with your insults. Can you tell me WHY steroids are class 3 drugs?They are a class 3 drug because the VAST majority of americans see them that way... why do you think so many of Jose Conseco's books have sold? Why is it that so many people are so against Steriods in Baseballl? Do I agree with them being illegal?... the answer is No. but the vast majority of americans disagree with you and me.

You telling me that you should get the same jail time for steroids as meth, coke, heroin etc? The vast amount of Americans feel steroid is wrong because of media Great we can agree the media is totally retarded, BUT We are not the majority, and to blame the media for the vast majority of americans thinkiing AS is worng is moronic. Regardless of what you think, AAS is a muscle enhansing drug, I highly doubt you would dispute that, and some people feel that is cheating. In bodybuilding it may not be, but in the olympics and other sports it is outlawed. and that is the bottom line. and all the armchair doctors says drug use to enhance performance is wrong.

You telling me that is ok to make androgen use to makeI don't have a problem with this at all, I am a liberatarian on this issue, But the majority of americans feel it should be illegal and that is why it is. yourself look/feel better soooooooooooooo bad while on the other hand another form of steroid use is RAMPANT................birth control.

Now on to these other comments you made:

The risk factors of ephedrine use is ON THE FVCKING BOTTLE!!. If you chose to use it still who fault is it? I totally agree with you here, it is on the bottle, but you were the one that stated "Now Bush Jr has passed laws giving the FDA the power of ban supps w/o proof of them being dangerous" Now theres a big differnce between what you said the first post compared to now.

This is a stupid commet and you know it. You saying that you would not care if you had to risk jail time etc for a supp that's safe but was banned for NO legitimate health concern?

sorry its not a stupid comment, When I got into this sport I knew it was illegal, and I have taken on that risk... If you have a problem with that risk... move... not stupid comment, a very logical comment.

**SwoleDave** · 02-16-2005, 10:14 PM

*cough* *cough* *political forum* *cough*

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by SwoleDave

*cough* *cough* *political forum* *cough*

totally agree... where is bouncer whenyou need him!

**BootyJuice24** · 02-16-2005, 10:22 PM

The only reason that Bush numero uno made AAS class 3 substances was because the QV compound was built on an oil reserve and they wouldn't move it to let Bush numero 2 drill. So knowing that QV sells mostly to Americans who like to lift shaped iron......Bush numero uno made it more risky to purchase their products......OK IM JOKING HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

Seriously though,,,,,I saw a Sergeant Major die during a run at Fort Lewis, WA in 2002. Efedra was deemed the culprit. Sometimes it takes a few lab rats to figure out what works and what doesnt. Like the fella above said,,,,,its on the bottle that it might kill you so survival of the smartest/fittest until there is enough data/experiences to draft legislation.

On that note....if the general public of America wasn't so misled and lied to by the media about AAS then it wouldn't be an issue. The facts are politicians do what the majority of their voters agree with and support, otherwise they lose their position...unless they are a Bush hahahahah. Another thing about the American Government is that a system of CHECKS AND BALANCES was established to avoid one person being responsible for decisions/actions that are of importance....the contributions of a group will always outperform the contributions of an individual....So stop slamming Bush,,,and no I didnt vote for Bush. The facts are just that no one person in politics here can do things...its a chain effect. Do I agree that they should be class 3,,,obviously not. However I think the real blame lies with media and drug companies. Why not expose the truth? Why not show the studies and research they do that show benefits of responsible steroid use ..? Politicians will always reflect constituents...so until the people in this country decide steroids aren't that bad,,,,,there is no sense slamming the people that represent them...The real blame lay with the 250 million morons who decide to take a view point on something with no foundation or history or research...all assumptions. And as far as the canadian dude who posted above....man even though I am not a big fan of Bush,,,why is it that every Canadian thinks America needs to hear their two cents about hating our president???? Who cares???? Just be glad you have free health care and lots of snow......you don't live here so forget about it? You don't hear Yanks screaming and crying about how you all live your lives and who is in charge of your nation....no offense bro but seriously....it gets old how everyone else knows more about America than Americans do.....and I am not talking about history,,I am talking about way of life..And honestly it is irrelevant if you like him or not since you dont vote or live here...and don't forget that I voted Kerry so don't say I am a dumb redneck oil driller.....

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by 1victor

Okay, there are no patents on Vitamins...........yet. Once they are a controlled substance everyone will come up with their own "special" super duper awesome stuffGreat, don't buy it bro, last I heard we were in a free, capitalist society... so you don't have to if you dont want to.... shop around for the best deal.. IE; Cell Tech... is it a decent product... yes, would I spend 40.00 for 2 lbs.. no, I would buy creatine, kool aid, and dextrose, and mix it all together. no one is forcing you to buy cell tech. . This will cost big time. You will see my friend.

As far as profit and R&D I agree but there is NO need to charge six different prices for the same pill. If it's worth a dollar here it's worth a dollar everywhere. Sure there is bro, its called CAPITALISM. If you Dont like the price... go somewhere else and they will eventually go out of business... it basic economics bro. This is opportunistic and vial IMO.CAPITALISM... bro

As far as drugs as a whole I find it "interesting" and completely fuked up that "they" whoever they are keep finding things that are killing us and pills to cure it. By now we should all live to be 200 with the help of the wonder drugs. Cholesterol ranges keep getting lower and lower actually no, the reason the guidelines have changed is because the have continued to research this particular disease, and they have found that more lives are prolonged or saved if LDL is lowered. That is why cardiologist suggest lowering LDL below 100. As more research is done, and more is learned the baisc treatment guidelines change. IMHO that is the why thing should. Do you want live with the data from 10 years ago, or do you want the data from now? That is why guidelines change? I want the data from now. not 10 years ago.; etc.... gimme a break.

OMG bro, you sound like John Kerry or Teddy Kennedy here! You need to do some homework on this issue if you truly are the conservative you claim you are!

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 10:24 PM

Vic.. great book for you to read.. Milton Freedman... free to choose.. Go buy it and read it.. trust me bro

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by BootyJuice24

The only reason that Bush numero uno made AAS class 3 substances was because the QV compound was built on an oil reserve and they wouldn't move it to let Bush numero 2 drill. So knowing that QV sells mostly to Americans who like to lift shaped iron......Bush numero uno made it more risky to purchase their products......OK IM JOKING HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

HAHA.. coming from a guy that supported Kerry!

Seriously though,,,,,I saw a Sergeant Major die during a run at Fort Lewis, WA in 2002. Efedra was deemed the culprit. Sometimes it takes a few lab rats to figure out what works and what doesnt. Like the fella above said,,,,,its on the bottle that it might kill you so survival of the smartest/fittest until there is enough data/experiences to draft legislation.

On that note....if the general public of America wasn't so misled and lied to by the media about AAS then it wouldn't be an issue. The facts are politicians do what the majority of their voters agree with and support, otherwise they lose their position...unless they are a Bush hahahahah. Another thing about the American Government is that a system of CHECKS AND BALANCES was established to avoid one person being responsible for decisions/actions that are of importance....the contributions of a group will always outperform the contributions of an individual....So stop slamming Bush,,,and no I didnt vote for Bush. The facts are just that no one person in politics here can do things...its a chain effect. Do I agree that they should be class 3,,,obviously not. However I think the real blame lies with media and drug companies. Why not expose the truth? Why not show the studies and research they do that show benefits of responsible steroid use ..? Politicians will always reflect constituents...so until the people in this country decide steroids aren't that bad,,,,,there is no sense slamming the people that represent them...The real blame lay with the 250 million morons who decide to take a view point on something with no foundation or history or research...all assumptions. And as far as the canadian dude who posted above....man even though I am not a big fan of Bush,,,why is it that every Canadian thinks America needs to hear their two cents about hating our president???? Who cares???? Just be glad you have free health care and lots of snow......you don't live here so forget about it? You don't hear Yanks screaming and crying about how you all live your lives and who is in charge of your nation....no offense bro but seriously....it gets old how everyone else knows more about America than Americans do.....and I am not talking about history,,I am talking about way of life..And honestly it is irrelevant if you like him or not since you dont vote or live here...and don't forget that I voted Kerry so don't say I am a dumb redneck oil driller.....

Great points bro, I think we are basically on the same page. I voted for Bush and you voted for Kerry. I bet you would agree that regardless of who was in office... AAS would be illegal. end of story. Whether people are morons on not is not the issue, in there opinion steriods is cheatng, and may be hazardis to your health, that is the main reason people are against AAS use. IMHO that is the main issue here, not GW bush or his dad.

Bottom line; Bush is not to blame for the ban on AAS. the General public is, and that is the basic premis of the original post

***BajanBastard*** · 02-16-2005, 10:37 PM

They are a class 3 drug because the VAST majority of americans see them that way... .

Nope. Class 3 drugs are classified as drug which alter one's state of mind. coke, meth, X etc. Steriods were put as class 3 drugs as a result of pressure from the IOC, not the people like you believe.

why do you think so many of Jose Conseco's books have sold? Why is it that so many people are so against Steriods in Baseballl?

Media hype. If the media did not report on it the wat they did no one would give a fvck. Why? People want to see homeruns and exciting games. It took steriod use to do that to the game.

Do I agree with them being illegal?... the answer is No. but the vast majority of americans disagree with you and me.

The vast majority of americans don't know **** about steriod besides what the madia tells them. Everone and their mother is an expect on steriods/supps now. You watch Bill O'Riley? I'll never forget when he said creatine causes aggession.

AAS is a muscle enhansing drug, I highly doubt you would dispute that, and some people feel that is cheating. In bodybuilding it may not be, but in the olympics and other sports it is outlawed. and that is the bottom line.

It's cheating when they are RULES. We as average people not olympic athletes so those rule should NEVER apply to us in our normal day to day lives.

Now Bush Jr has passed laws giving the FDA the power of ban supps w/o proof of them being dangerous" Now theres a big differnce between what you said the first post compared to now.

It's true the FDA can ban a supp just w/o proof of it being harmful. Bush passed it.

I have an article i want to show you but it will take time to type it.

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

Nope. Class 3 drugs are classified as drug which alter one's state of mind. coke, meth, X etc. Steriods were put as class 3 drugs as a result of pressure from the IOC, not the people like you believe.Media hype. If the media did not report on it the wat they did no one would give a fvck.

You are sooo wrong here and you know it. If you want to blame the media for the reason most americans beleive steriods are wrong then go ahead. Most of my friends feel steriods are cheating...
Why? People want to see homeruns and exciting games. It took steriod use to do that to the game. The vast majority of americans don't know **** about steriod besides what the madia tells them. Everone and their mother is an expect on steriods/supps now. You watch Bill O'Riley? I'll never forget when he said creatine causes aggession.

It's cheating when they are RULES. We as average people not olympic athletes so those rule should NEVER apply to us in our normal day to day lives.
Great I dont want it illegal either, but most people do regardless of your lame agrument that the media is the reason people think the way they think. Guess what the vast majority of big media is liberal, and who was voted into office? a concervative... thank you Lame as argument. I have a proposal for ya, spend some time, ask some of your non-bodybuilding friends and ask them what they think of gear and professional sports... I'd bet a million dollars that most of them think it is illegal

It's true the FDA can ban a supp just w/o proof of it being harmful. Bush passed it. SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!! Find me the source that specifically states a suppliment can be banned without proof it can be harmful... I want to see a specific statute or law that says that... Because you assert that does not make it true. for the record, i am not the one that made this statement... you are.

I have an article i want to show you but it will take time to type it.

Sounds like a cop out to me... How about a link.. An article is one thing, A non-bias source is something totally differnet. You have made the assersions about Bush and all the things he has done not me... Show me the money

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by gymbuff101

ya i am sure bad things happen there it all comes back to the $$$$$$$ they are all bought and sold like pupets just like you boy G.W

Wow that is about the most compelling arguement I have seen in this entire post... Wow you must have a PHD is political science? right?

***BajanBastard*** · 02-16-2005, 11:04 PM

I have all the refs you asked for but i need to find the article by Rick Collins that they are in.

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 11:06 PM

Bigkig, here's what I find funny, we both agree that AAS should be legal, I actually think all drugs should be legal. I think all drugs should be legal, and then we can tax the living **** out of them... want to solve the current buget problems there ya go. The prolem is that most americans disagree with both of us. I dont agree with everything Bush says, but what I do agree with is the majority of his policies compared to John Kerry, and those were the 2 candidates on the ballot that had a chance of winning. I have much bigger issues in my life than AAS, and that is why I choose Bush over Kerry.

Bottom line to me is that if I thought AAS should be illegal I woud not be on this board. To blame Bush 41 or Bush 43 for AAS being illegal is silly. It would have happened either way.

**Jdawg50** · 02-16-2005, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

I have all the refs you asked for but i need to find the article by Rick Collins that they are in.

Cool find em, I want to see em. You dont even live in the states, why do you even care?"

**BootyJuice24** · 02-16-2005, 11:12 PM

it really doesnt matter if the IOC wants steroids illegal or not....this is not united states of olympics...its america. If the people of this country did not approve of that decision in an overwhelmin majority then maybe someone would care. The point is steroid users are the major minority,,,and thus it is next to impossible to have our voices heard. The political agenda here is focused on the majority not what a big mofo in barbados thinks america should be like.....lol. I understand why you are upset man; however, the rest of the voters in this country don't,,,so it doesn't matter? I also agree with media influence as a primary problem,,,,but they say what they want, and people tend to listen. So until some media monster like ted turner decides to do some research and start teaching the truth,,,,it is never going to change, and even then it would take an eternity. The government doesn't really care if we want to be giant gym rats or not......as long as we are breathing. And based on what most people believe and most people assume...steroids will never be legal so arguing in this forum about class 3 and class 2 and all that BS is pointless,,,it wont change anything. Unless the government decides to put steroid education in their budget plans then they will be illegal,,,because unless people know what they are doing with them then they are harmful as hell and can be deadly.....So based on the possibilities of steroids and the potential conditions that abuse could lead to,,,they should be illegal in my opinion....too many morons running around. So how about arguing about that.....a mass movement to educate americans on how to safely use steroids ,,,take ancillaries,,,HGH usage etc.......that way when you bash our Commander in Chief it wont sound so moronic....the class 3 issue about mind altering B.S. and all that can probably be argued...they don;t just pass legislature like that for ****s and giggles bro...usually some research involved??? Goes back to what I said above...you have to examine the POSSIBLE effects of the drug,,,,,not what happens when smart, knowledged people use them...WORST CASE SCENARIOS...so if they are legal and someone purchases 100 dollars in anadrol and downs it, I can bet they will have a mind altering experience.......hey you should even blame the people on here that talk about having roid rage ...are they discussing mind altering effects???? Start at the foundation of the problem with criticism bro not the top....if even steroid users talk about rage then you can imagine what the average person thinks....and so based on that our government was probably justified in making them class 3 bro..

***BajanBastard*** · 02-16-2005, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Jdawg50

Cool find em, I want to see em. You dont even live in the states, why do you even care?"

It's simple really. I think it's wrong for my American iron bros to be treated like some fvcking crack dealer for a couple d-bol tabs. Should steriods be legal? NO. Should they be classed up like "hardcore" drugs? Hell no. Another reason is that, like it or not, whatever happens in the states affects other countries.

**BootyJuice24** · 02-16-2005, 11:15 PM

and i am not saying I wouldnt want them legal....but then again I understand what I need to learn in order to use them......I do however think it is best they are illegal because I know there would be a lot of ****ed up people if they werent......bunch of midgets that ruined their growth plates,,,,baldies,,and bitch tits galore....the average person doesnt care to learn how to use them safe....so since they have adversary affects if not used safely then illegal is the only answer.....it is selfish if i think any other way...gotta consider the well being of common folk too not just myself bro....

**EatRite** · 02-16-2005, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Glock-19

Dam dog your dummer than I thought. Bush has to Sign the legislation.....But you know everything....right........

glock: do you think that steriod use being legal is the majority oppinion in the united states... imo about 99% of the pop. relates steriod use to other drugs such as heroine, acid, etc... their use isnt really respected... of course you can sit here and dislike whether or not they are legal or not, but your oppinion is one of many, and to be honest, i'm glad juice is illegal... if it wasn't it would be widely abused in the usa... it already is and it's illegal... open it up for everyone to use and it would be much worse, people would rely on it way too much... and the average citizen in the united states is uneducated on their use... hell, the average person on this board is more than uneducated on their use... THERE ARE A LOT OF EDUCATED PEOPLE HERE, however, a lot are also uneducated, and this is a steriod forum... just imagine if you let anybody and everybody use them... sure their would be more info out there, but who would really look to find it??? people would abuse them to no end... they have to be illegal because people dont know the total damage they can do to the human body... sure, if they are used in moderation then you are fine, but people dont do things moderately in the usa... jmo

***BajanBastard*** · 02-16-2005, 11:23 PM

If any of you read MD there are some excellent articles on the whole issue of why AAS are class three drugs. I can't find the particular one i'm looking for yet. April and May 2004 issues. Written by Rick Collins, John Romano and W Llewellyn.

**phwSSJ** · 02-17-2005, 12:00 AM

The reason they are illegal is because they are very dangerouse! Most people dont know the first thing about AS use, so they really hurt themselves. I have met so many people in the gym that do deca only or just plain never heard of pct.
As far as being able to choose we should, but then where will it stop? Should we have the right to decide for ourselves if we want to smoke crack?
Personally I think that they should be handed out by scipts, that way it is more regulated, and those who get the scripts should get some education on what they are using. But we dont get that now with the drugs those asshole doctors give us.
If you ask me steroids might be a little dangerouse to put on the mainstream for so many reasons,
Pro hormones and pro steroids are different though!
About 20,000 people a year die from drunk driving accidents, and so many families are broken by alcoholism, and so many health problems and deaths are comming from ciggarets (something is actually being done about that though).
The answer is simple, it is not about what is right or not, its bout $$$$ and that is the bottom line, no matter how evil!

**spoonta66** · 02-17-2005, 12:08 AM

with usa being the land of the "free"? i would hate to see the lands that arn't free! usa has probably the least amount of "freedom" of any civilised country in the entire world. jail for a joint? wars for money? some of the harshest censorship in the entire world! (similar to some muslim countries) if thats freedom im glad im not there.

**spoonta66** · 02-17-2005, 12:09 AM

ps: bush has made the usa one of the most hated countries in the entire world! he is an ass!

**EatRite** · 02-17-2005, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by spoonta66

with usa being the land of the "free"? i would hate to see the lands that arn't free! usa has probably the least amount of "freedom" of any civilised country in the entire world. jail for a joint? wars for money? some of the harshest censorship in the entire world! (similar to some muslim countries) if thats freedom im glad im not there.

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/

this is a rating of how free countries are... usa is ranked 13th for freedom... so you are definately wrong about that man...

**spoonta66** · 02-17-2005, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by EatRite

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/

this is a rating of how free countries are... usa is ranked 13th for freedom... so you are definately wrong about that man...

how does economics make a country free?? lol

Thats about economic freedom not actual freedom!

**EatRite** · 02-17-2005, 12:44 AM

it is about aspects that take away freedom... ex... regulation is one of them, also government intervension, property rights etc...

**Aboot** · 02-17-2005, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by EatRite

it is about aspects that take away freedom... ex... regulation is one of them, also government intervension, property rights etc...

No it's not. It specifically says that the following are the only things that they take into account in determining their ratings:

Trade policy,
Fiscal burden of government,
Government intervention in the economy,
Monetary policy,
Capital flows and foreign investment,
Banking and finance,
Wages and prices,
Property rights,
Regulation, and
Informal market activity.

**EatRite** · 02-17-2005, 01:07 AM

how does this not relate to how free we are...

it's a measure of how big the goverment's hand in our lives is...

if the gov participates in economic intervension through redistributing the wealth, that decreases people's freedom to keep the money they earn in an untouched econ... regulation has to do with how much sh*t is regulated (steriods , etc...) ... property rights has to do with the rights of people on their property... property rights in the united states are held with the most respect... lots of convictions are not won because of lack of evidence due to the fruit of the poisoned tree rule... the article is about economic freedom... i know, but there are aspects of this that can be looked at to actually give a rating for freedom... what else do we have to rate freedom??? in order to compare you have to have numbers and statistics, or a valuation method... economic freedom, and the componants of it give a good rating as to how much the goverment interfears with the market, our lives, and how much control the exhibit over us... if you can offer any other way to administer any valuation tactic to freedom lets hear it...