02-25-2005, 11:23 PM #1Senior Member
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- Feb 2005
Desperate for EXPERT HELP! PLEASE! EQ vs Enanthate / NPP vs Deca vs Primo
First time considerer of AAS cycle - Choosing my mix.
Trying to decide between NPP, Deca or Primo for my mild anabolic ...
Trying to decide between EQ or a test product like enanthate .
What are the minimum doses I can take for results and the minimum "on" time.
I'm 6-3, 197 lbs. and about 11% BF. No need to mention that I can make more gains currently without AAS, I have ****ty genetics for gaining strength/mass. I'm lean, but can force feed myself for 10 weeks if need be 4000 cal x day. LOL. I don't want to be discouraged and told that I can wait 3 years (until after I gain 40 lbs muscle naturally) as I don't want that much altogether. My perception of a good body is much more modest than most. I respect EVERYONES view of what their own body development goals are, these just happen to be mine.
Okay, I am interested in picking my bulking drug for my first cycle. I steered away from the DBol - Deca first cycle because the Dbol is reported as super toxic and androgenic . To me there's not an amount of muscle thats worth that, even with the amazing synergistic reports. Not to mention, I'm hesitant to experiment with Deca dick or other sides. Basically, what I WANT to do is a combination of either
- or -
Would the enanthate produce much more mass? Is Primo too mild to bother with? Or, am I completely wrong with my choices? I currently have Enanthate and Deca. I'm planning on exchanging the Enanthate for EQ, because it seems to me that the toxicity isn't worth the additional gains... but then again, my initial regiment was to be the following ...
100 Deca ew weeks 1-10
100 enanth ew weeks 1-5
Again, please remember that slow progress is okay, as my goals are only to gain about 15 pounds of muscle with minimal water gain and my best efforts will be used to avoid side affects where possible and reasonable with the attainment of my goals. Price isn't an issue. I think food costs more than AAS at my level.
The only thing is that the person I go to to get this from doesn't have Primo or NPP, which I would greatly have preferred either of those to Deca.
So, these are my direct questions;
1. Is the gain in affect from enanthate great enough over EQ to warrant the risk of sides associated with it when considering my modest goals?
2. Is NPP that much preferred to Deca and is it readily available (unlike primo)?
3. If I can find primo is it still a waist of time due to its low efficacy even when combining with a bulking drug like enanthate or EQ (for the purpose of taking the smallest amount of the strong anabolic while getting the most amount of gains during the cycle?)
4. Is a cycle of 100 deca / 100 enanthate (or EQ if advised to exchange it by you all) too little to produce much results? Or is it good enough with small amounts of risk of water retention, gyno, testicular atrophy, and recovery time to where I should just use what I have?
5. Is Primo similar to Deca in regards to the claims that deca isn't per se an outright anabolic, but rather an anti-catabolic that creates a contrast between normal anabolism/catabolism ratios? Or is it just a mild anabolic? Or did I just get misinformed regarding the way Deca interacts with someone's system in the first place?
6. What is a good "multiplier" for bulking?
For instance, I've heard that;
11 x BW = cal for losing weight.
14 x BW = cal for maintaining
16 x BW = cal for gaining weight
?? x BW = cal for gaining weight on AAS ?
7. Is it a bad idea to take accutane at the same time as AAS to minimize acne?
Okay, I'm long winded, sorry. LOL
THANK YOU for reading all that!
02-25-2005, 11:28 PM #2
here ya go, long story short version. A cycle of test-e @ 500mg/week
is the best way to go for a first cycle. if ya really want you can run deca as well
at 400mg/week. good safe cycle with great gains.
02-25-2005, 11:31 PM #3
Bro, it's good that you're taking the time to get answers, but really all you have to do is read around the site. All the answers are in here somewhere.
Test Enanthate is good for a first cycle. 400-600mg/week-10 weeks, then PCT.
You can expect great gains from this, possibly 20-25 pounds.
02-26-2005, 12:08 AM #4
I agree that test only for cycle one is probably a good idea and here is my rationale: gyno. Lets say you chose Test/NPP or Test/Nan. Deca and you developed gyno....How would you treat it? Bromo or Nolva? Well you really dont know if you are estrogen induced or progesterone induced do you?
Now if this was cycle #2-2000 I would say Test E and NPP. I am a proud supporter of NPP. I will likely use it in every cycle from here out.
02-26-2005, 12:38 AM #5
20 to 25 sounds like a good multiplier for a cycle... aka 200lbs should eat between 4000 and 5000 cals.
These numbers are definately for ectomorphs or mesomorphs though...
02-26-2005, 12:51 AM #6Senior Member
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- Feb 2005
Finally, I posted this on 4 sites hoping to get answers - this one seems the most responsive. I have read a TON of posts and websites, but the thing is, most people are completely okay with side affects and just counterbalancing them when they emerge. Personally, I prefer to take a more moderate approach - as I said before, I ONLY WANT 15-20 POUNDS OF MUSCLE INCREASE ALTOGETHER! LOL
IF there were no way around the sides, and more over, there were no real benefit from doing less (for instance if it just barely elevated hormone levels but still caused my nuts to shut off) then it would make sense to just do it, which ever was most efficient. But, is that the case?
Lets say I gained 20 pounds, would I keep even 10 (if I took enanthate )? And in the event that I did, how does that compare to the amount of mass that I can gain from a cycle of EQ which appears much less likely to cause gyno/bloat/MPB/blood pressure etc... Additionally, EQ has the tendon/joint benefits similar to Deca . The risk of it is that people prone to depression blah blah blah, I'm not prone to that. Additionally, no bloat, no gyno, no MPB, actual gains indicated by the appearance of your body, (i.e. visual barometer provided) etc.
If inspite of that there are things I still don't understand (and I have them explained to me) that indicates that enanthate IS the drug of choice, why not 200 or 300 of Enanthate? What kind of results/sides would that dosage change the expectations to?
Also, I must say, I did post 7 direct questions, it would be great if ANYONE who is knowledgeable would consider replying to them. I thought they were valid enough to warrant an answer. :-)
02-26-2005, 12:52 AM #7Senior Member
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- Feb 2005
I am an ectomorph ... :-) Good point tho.
02-26-2005, 01:01 AM #8
400-500 test a week for 10 wks is plenty for your first time. i did that for my first cycle years ago and put on and kept 20+ lbs no prob. make sure your diet and training is in check though or it wont happen
1) yes, the sides from eq alone with out test (enanthate or any kind) with it, IMO is much worse than just doing the test.
2) different strokes for different folks. its the same if you asked who likes cyp or enanthate. its the exact same drug, just different ester, which dictated the release rate into the blood stream. many prefer NPP because it can build up levels and kick in faster so to speak. other prever deca (decaonate) because of the unfrequent shots
3) i think its a huge waste, esp on a first cycle where test alone can be more than plenty alone
4) sure it could be great. personally, i as well as others wouldnt do much below 400mg/wk of testosterone . this is something from experience. others prefer lower doses like 200-300mg/wk. im not sure of anyone that would recomend 100mg/wk as that is pretty low and is near what your already making naturaly
5) no you were misinformed. it is anabolic . it binds to the AR receptor.
6) thats pretty vague. your metabolism will dictate alot of that. first of all, go by LBM, not BM. your fat cells dont require energy. Id say somewhere in the ballpark of 25-28XLBM..but thats me, and i have always put on weight no problem following that intake.
7) no, but i would be careful mixing it with oral steroids as it can be hard on the liver
there ya have it
02-26-2005, 01:20 AM #9Senior Member
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- Feb 2005
Thank you SO much Billy! :-) It's been difficult to get a reply to those.
Okay, what about ALL this support for Test-E in comparison to DBol /NPP for a first cycle? I hear thats a phenomenal 'first' . The benefits you mentioned of NPP are noteworthy, however the one that I was most attracted to was the short half life, especially while checking out nandrolone , as I don't want to be committed to having something in my system for 3 weeks before I find out how I react to it, and the second benefit is that with a short half life, its easier to predict just how much of the active compound is affecting me week in and week out, as opposed to Deca which on a 300mg weekly intake could amount to as much as 500mg in week 3 as it builds up faster than the body can metabolize.
I think the best summary paragraph is this; If I told you that I wanted to gain 15 pounds lean body mass and was willing to spend 3 cycles doing it, wanted to minimize first and foremost androgenic side affects more than other side affects, what would be your suggested approach?
I will follow all of your advise so far, it seems good. My point being, this is not falling on deaf ears.
02-26-2005, 01:23 AM #10Senior Member
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- Feb 2005
Also, you say 400-500 is plenty, but what is the MINIMUM? :-)
02-26-2005, 01:33 AM #11
minimum..IMO is testosterone 300mg/wk.
NPP can be detected for 18 months in your system. it is a nandrolone phenylpropionate. same drug as deca .
dbol /npp cycle is lacking testosterone. it doesnt matter if you use enanthate , just some form of testosterone should be used. enanthate, cypionate , propionate , sustanon ..which ever all fine. they are the same drug, just different esters.
npp is going to be out of your system much faster than enanthate anyways (not including metabolites, which npp would last MUCH longer as i said above) your ester theory is off a bit though. the drugs dont actually build up. when you inject they release the highest right after your shot, it goes down hill from there. to get higher blood levels, you more or less piggy back on one another. so if you want to lower it, its very easy, just either lower your shot volume, or increase your shot frequency. you dont really have to worry about it building up like that, and really, you could achieve very high levels just as easily with npp or test prop compared to enanthate or deca. in fact, deca and enanthate have less of the actual drug anyways due to a larger ester molecular weight. if for whatever reason though, you want to stick to your shorter ester theory, just use test prop then.
honestly, if all you want is 15 lbs and your are willing to wait 3 cycles worth, steroids are not for you. you can put on 15lbs naturally. it all comes back to your diet IMO. thats my most honest answer. if thats unacceptable, id say try a 400mg/wk of just testosterone. you will probally hit your 15lbs goal though in 1 cyle. its kinda pointless to do cycles and tax your body for only 5lbs gains. you are shutting your bodys system down, reguardless if you do 100mg/wk or 1000mg/wk.
02-26-2005, 01:48 AM #12Senior Member
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- Feb 2005
Okay, cool... so 400mg x week, how many weeks?
02-26-2005, 03:18 AM #13
12 weeks and if ur running test enth or cyp injected 200 mg e3days but i dont think ur ready for it yet as billy bathgate stated 15 pounds can be gained with proper diet and training , ur still askin many simple questions that u can find in these forums , i no iwas there as well askin simple questions and the only way u learn is to go and read some forums , u said u do but by askin a question like that just shows u need to go do some more research , no flammin here im just trying to help out bro
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