cant take anymore steroids help!

**maddog<sco>** · 03-07-2005, 04:46 AM

been to the doc with pains in my lower chest turne out its my liver so ive been for a scan and blood tests got results this morning my blood count is 22.3%
and im doing my liver some serious damage so he has told me to stop right away
lucky ive just finished a 16 wwek cycle now im supposed to pct today and he told me that the clomid would cause further damage to my liver any suggestions on how to pct safely

**seanw** · 03-07-2005, 07:19 AM

did you take Milk thistle. I would get on that ASAP. Not sure what else you can do other than Clomid

**Mesomorphyl** · 03-07-2005, 07:40 AM

You have to have clomid... So hit the milk thistle as suggested above, also get dandelion, ala, gla, flax oil, evening primrose oil, vitamin e, vitamin c, and some b-6(100mg should be fine). All of these will work synergistically to help your liver clean itself out.

**bor** · 03-07-2005, 07:41 AM

liv 52 would be a better/stronger choice, don't worry your liver will recover - it always does, don't drink for a while also

**simster1** · 03-07-2005, 08:46 AM

U cant buy liv 52 over the counter. the over the counter name is liver care by the himalaya drug co. they are the same thing the liver care just easier to get. good sugestion Bor.

**fukkenshredded** · 03-07-2005, 09:10 AM

WTF??

You don't have to take clomid. I've NEVER taken clomid. Some people take it,others don't -- it certainly is not necessary as a recovery tool.

As far as liver damage -- what were your values specifically? 22.3% of what? This is vague at best. We need to see the GGT values to really know anything here, and its best if we see everything. Post the entire panel and better feedback can be had.

As far as milk thistle, well...

Tylers Detoxification Factors is a better product for liver protection/rejuvination. You want to replace the glutathione (assuming it is depleted, which it may not be), and NAC is a good source for that. Also, ALA can help a little (it is the best anti-oxidant we know of at the moment). Milk thistle has not been proven to be nearly as effective as those, so that's something to consider.

What was your diet? Also, your cycle? We need more details here to get any value from the post, and to help analyze what exactly is happening.

**Jantzen4k** · 03-07-2005, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by fukkenshredded

WTF??

You don't have to take clomid. I've NEVER taken clomid. Some people take it,others don't -- it certainly is not necessary as a recovery tool.

if you dont want to keep your gains listen to fukkenshredded

**Mesomorphyl** · 03-07-2005, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Jantzen4k

if you dont want to keep your gains listen to fukkenshredded

Fuk can defend himself, but he actually has a pct protocol himself. It does not involve clomid. pheedno, swale, and now if he posts it up fukkenshredded.

**bor** · 03-07-2005, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by simster1

U cant buy liv 52 over the counter. the over the counter name is liver care by the himalaya drug co. they are the same thing the liver care just easier to get. good sugestion Bor.

Didn't now if liv52 is legal in the US, good call bro

***Billy_Bathgate*** · 03-07-2005, 11:26 AM

get tylers liver detox

**Jantzen4k** · 03-07-2005, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

Fuk can defend himself, but he actually has a pct protocol himself. It does not involve clomid. pheedno, swale, and now if he posts it up fukkenshredded.

**Booz** · 03-07-2005, 11:56 AM

u cn get liv52 on the net

**frank_frank** · 03-07-2005, 01:41 PM

at fukkenshredded's name :lol

**frank_frank** · 03-07-2005, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by maddog<sco>

been to the doc with pains in my lower chest turne out its my liver so ive been for a scan and blood tests got results this morning my blood count is 22.3%
and im doing my liver some serious damage so he has told me to stop right away
lucky ive just finished a 16 wwek cycle now im supposed to pct today and he told me that the clomid would cause further damage to my liver any suggestions on how to pct safely

what is your cycle history to mess up your liver that bad?

**AandF6969** · 03-07-2005, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by fukkenshredded

WTF??

You don't have to take clomid. I've NEVER taken clomid. Some people take it,others don't -- it certainly is not necessary as a recovery tool.

I guess it's not a necessary recovery tool if you don't want your testosterone levels to jump back to normal quickly and your balls to come back faster...

**Rob** · 03-07-2005, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by frank_frank

what is your cycle history to mess up your liver that bad?

i would also like to know

how many cycles? what did u run etc.

**Mutant** · 03-07-2005, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by fukkenshredded

WTF??

You don't have to take clomid. I've NEVER taken clomid. Some people take it,others don't -- it certainly is not necessary as a recovery tool.

Hey man, whatever you believe is fine, you dont have to listen to the rest of the board! Also if you want to defend yourself thats great, but don't a complete *sshole about it when the people here are just trying to help you!

**AZTKWORRIOR** · 03-07-2005, 07:02 PM

if this ****enshredded is the same from another board, I would listen closely to what he is saying. I don't know if he is or isn't though, but ****shredded from another board not only had the info down but could back it up with pictures.

**FRANK WHITE** · 03-07-2005, 07:16 PM

Fshredded, state you PCT routine. Seriously, I'd like to know.

**FRANK WHITE** · 03-07-2005, 07:18 PM

Maddog, get this addressed professionaly bro. Not something to play around with. Best of luck.

**Tags** · 03-07-2005, 07:36 PM

I always take milk thistle throughout pct and after pct I get bloodwork done and liver values are normal.

I've also heard about liv52, it's supposed to be a good liver protectant/supplement... Not really sure what's in it maby it contains milk thistle too?

**1morerep** · 03-07-2005, 08:18 PM

hey buddy, if your doctor told you to cease with the AS, he should have also given you some liver recovery medicine or products. good luck.

**Deezuhl** · 03-07-2005, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by fukkenshredded

As far as liver damage -- what were your values specifically? 22.3% of what? This is vague at best. We need to see the GGT values to really know anything here, and its best if we see everything. Post the entire panel and better feedback can be had.
.

i'd like to hear the values because mine were nearly 10 times out of range. I think i am recovering though with thistle and liver detox and a ton of water. none of which i took during cycle like an idiot!!

***Cycleon*** · 03-07-2005, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by fukkenshredded

WTF??

You don't have to take clomid. I've NEVER taken clomid. Some people take it,others don't -- it certainly is not necessary as a recovery tool.

As far as liver damage -- what were your values specifically? 22.3% of what? This is vague at best. We need to see the GGT values to really know anything here, and its best if we see everything. Post the entire panel and better feedback can be had.

As far as milk thistle, well...

Tylers Detoxification Factors is a better product for liver protection/rejuvination. You want to replace the glutathione (assuming it is depleted, which it may not be), and NAC is a good source for that. Also, ALA can help a little (it is the best anti-oxidant we know of at the moment). Milk thistle has not been proven to be nearly as effective as those, so that's something to consider.

What was your diet? Also, your cycle? We need more details here to get any value from the post, and to help analyze what exactly is happening.

Is this fukkenshredded from Anabolic Fitness? because if its not I dont would rather you change your name - please PM me and let me know or I will contact you over there

and Tylers is very good from the AF store

**moregunsthanroses** · 03-07-2005, 08:57 PM

no clomid thats ridiculous unless your increasing test with something else like tribulus. but clomid is still the best because it increases ur LH

***Cycleon*** · 03-07-2005, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by moregunsthanroses

no clomid thats ridiculous unless your increasing test with something else like tribulus. but clomid is still the best because it increases ur LH

Arnold never took clomid - think about that - our ways have changed but some people have other systems - fshred has been around quite awhile so while I would want to hear it, he is not saying something ridicuolous

**maddog<sco>** · 03-08-2005, 05:42 AM

this was my third cycle of
wk 1-3 50 mg oxymethelone
wk 1-14 400 mg deca +500 mg test enthanate
wk 1-16 500 mg test enthanate
all my vits plus milk thistle loads of water like 3 litre a day at minimum
protion shakes creatine and loads of food.

i think i followed it correctly from cycle 2 and 3 fukked my first one up stopped early
always done pct so im pissed ive done my liver some damage doctor says some people just simply cant handle steroids everybody has different side effects mine is a weak liver im very dissapointed i have to give up something i love doing now im going to try the herbal route instead ive been told about a product from maximuscle called tribulas has anyone tried it if so what do you think
im goiont to try the following
clclone shake creatine and tribulas lots of food and lost of training hope to get at least some power gains from creatine and tribulas.

ps.THANKS FOR ALL YOUR ADVICE SINCE I STARTED ILL LET YOU KNOW HOW I GET ON WITH MY HERBAL ROUTE CYA!

**frank_frank** · 03-08-2005, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by maddog<sco>

this was my third cycle of
wk 1-3 50 mg oxymethelone
wk 1-14 400 mg deca +500 mg test enthanate
wk 1-16 500 mg test enthanate
all my vits plus milk thistle loads of water like 3 litre a day at minimum
protion shakes creatine and loads of food.

i think i followed it correctly from cycle 2 and 3 fukked my first one up stopped early
always done pct so im pissed ive done my liver some damage doctor says some people just simply cant handle steroids everybody has different side effects mine is a weak liver im very dissapointed i have to give up something i love doing now im going to try the herbal route instead ive been told about a product from maximuscle called tribulas has anyone tried it if so what do you think
im goiont to try the following
clclone shake creatine and tribulas lots of food and lost of training hope to get at least some power gains from creatine and tribulas.

ps.THANKS FOR ALL YOUR ADVICE SINCE I STARTED ILL LET YOU KNOW HOW I GET ON WITH MY HERBAL ROUTE CYA!

how much time in between cycles? this doesnt sound too ridiculous of a cycle at all..were u drinking heavily while on these cycles? i just dont understand y your liver would be that damamged

**AnaboliKboy** · 03-08-2005, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by frank_frank

how much time in between cycles? this doesnt sound too ridiculous of a cycle at all..were u drinking heavily while on these cycles? i just dont understand y your liver would be that damamged

Thats what I was thinking.

**kafabe** · 03-08-2005, 09:50 AM

About 9 months ago my liver values went to 6,900 and 3,000. They should be 20-30 ans 30-60. I was taking pain meds for a broken rib, it had acetemeniphen in it, which is really hard on your liver. I was also taking tren and anadrol , that total mixture screwed me up. Anyway, I just did not take anything, my Dr. did not want me to take milk thistle or liv 52. he just did not want me to put anything in my body except food. Two months later my enzymes had dropped alot, they were in the hundreds, so I waited another month and knew I felt healthy, I have been on a cycle now for 6 weeks, everything is going well for me, I am gaining weight like crazy, since I lost 33 lbs while i was sick. I have gained about 23 lbs back know.

**BDTR** · 03-08-2005, 09:51 AM

Is it the same one from AF?

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

Arnold never took clomid - think about that - our ways have changed but some people have other systems - fshred has been around quite awhile so while I would want to hear it, he is not saying something ridicuolous

**frank_frank** · 03-08-2005, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by kafabe

About 9 months ago my liver values went to 6,900 and 3,000. They should be 20-30 ans 30-60. I was taking pain meds for a broken rib, it had acetemeniphen in it, which is really hard on your liver. I was also taking tren and anadrol, that total mixture screwed me up. Anyway, I just did not take anything, my Dr. did not want me to take milk thistle or liv 52. he just did not want me to put anything in my body except food. Two months later my enzymes had dropped alot, they were in the hundreds, so I waited another month and knew I felt healthy, I have been on a cycle now for 6 weeks, everything is going well for me, I am gaining weight like crazy, since I lost 33 lbs while i was sick. I have gained about 23 lbs back know.

im glad that your getting some nice gains.. but y didnt your doctor want u to take milke thistle/liv 52? i dont think they would affect the meds

**kafabe** · 03-08-2005, 11:03 AM

I do not know, i suggested it several times and he would always say do not take any of those over the counter vitamins or anything, he said just let your liver rest, put nothing in your body, I would get on the net and read about liv 52 and milk thistle and was going to start doing it anyway, but my values could have been so high that my liver just did not need anything going in my body, i think the liv 52 and milk thistle is great for people that do not have elevated liver values to take to keep from having trouble, but after it is already screwed up, you must need to just let it repair itself, the Dr. said that your liver was the strongest organ in your body and can take alot of damage. But I also told the Dr. i was taking anadrol and he had no clue what I was talking about. Who knows, I know I finally got better, by laying in bed for about 4 weeks straight. I know I could not tell I was sick until they got up in the 6,000 range then i just knew something was wrong, I felt horrible.

Originally Posted by frank_frank

im glad that your getting some nice gains.. but y didnt your doctor want u to take milke thistle/liv 52? i dont think they would affect the meds

**frank_frank** · 03-08-2005, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by kafabe

I do not know, i suggested it several times and he would always say do not take any of those over the counter vitamins or anything, he said just let your liver rest, put nothing in your body, I would get on the net and read about liv 52 and milk thistle and was going to start doing it anyway, but my values could have been so high that my liver just did not need anything going in my body, i think the liv 52 and milk thistle is great for people that do not have elevated liver values to take to keep from having trouble, but after it is already screwed up, you must need to just let it repair itself, the Dr. said that your liver was the strongest organ in your body and can take alot of damage. But I also told the Dr. i was taking anadrol and he had no clue what I was talking about. Who knows, I know I finally got better, by laying in bed for about 4 weeks straight. I know I could not tell I was sick until they got up in the 6,000 range then i just knew something was wrong, I felt horrible.

oh i see...
im glad your liver is a soldier!!!

**Proflyer** · 03-08-2005, 12:05 PM

You can buy the "liver care" online at www.totalherbalcare.com it's like 13 bucks a bottle, take two a day with some yogurt or something, it kinda makes my stomach hurt if I take it on an empty one. I did a pretty heavy dbol /test/winny cycle as my first cycle and took that the whole time (my source was a friend who's an NPC judge and knows his chit) and he turned me onto the stuff. My liver values ended up better AFTER the cycle then they were before...go figure. Anyway, good stuff.

**fukkenshredded** · 03-09-2005, 03:18 AM

My PCT is simple. I stop taking drugs.

(I used to utilize Arimidex and a few other ancillaries, but I quit.)

Moregunsthanroses -- Clomid does not universally increase LH. Consider the following study which I posted on Elite many many moons ago and which Nelson Montana has now added to his arsenal of 'knowledge' (such as it is):

Treatments with idiopathic oligospermia for six to nine months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin testosterone and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with low sperm count below normal basal FSH levels. In cases where sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibitory effect."

Now you're gonna say that comingof a cycle your sperm volume IS abnormally low. But even so, the FSH is lowered, which is an unwanted effect.

So there you have it in broad strokes. I avoid Clomid because it inhibits FSH, which regulates LH, which regulates testosterone. It also likely increases SHBG, which is bad when coming off steroids . I tend to use winny and tren almost exclusively, and I don't do many cycles at all. Clomid and HCG are almost useless with these drugs. I have used bromocriptine and SAM-e with some success, but in the end, all of it is simply delaying the inevitable. After all, many people who talk about being off are actually still on, whether it be a low dose bridge, or proviron , or what have you. Not only that, the time they take off is negligible in terms of total steroid metabolite elimination. Gains are kept because calories and training are maintained and drugs are started again as soon as gains start waining. Simple as that.

Now, a lot of you are already laughing your educated asses off at me. That's fine by me. I get that on all the boards from time to time. Ol' Nelson Montana used to try and pin me down on lots of things over on Elite. He just couldn't see the light no matter how much logic was put in front of him. Maybe that's the case here, maybe not. Time will tell. If I am wrong, I am the first to capitulate. I don't talk out my ass. Feel free to take me to task. My favorite thing is being wrong, because that way I can learn. Now...

My opinion of clomid is that it MIGHT work for SOME people, depending on what drugs are used and what their default endocrinologic profile is. To me it looks like an experiment in whining and wasting tissues after exposing one's inner child to anyone who asks.

And to the guy who said I am an expert on not keeping gains. I will ignore the intrinsic arrogance in your statement and just chalk it up to whatever cycle you are currently mismanaging. Maybe I don't care about size. Maybe I care about performance. Maybe I am not a mirror athlete. Maybe I train for pound for pound strength and muscular density and separation. Maybe I like to be able to wipe my ass without straining my back. Maybe I don't care about impressing women standing in line at the Friday night movies by flexing while I buy a ticket. Maybe I am secure with being skinny. I am fairly strong for my puny body (5-10, 175-ish at roughly 6% bf). You're bigger. Good for you. Clomid works for you. I'm glad. I am not big, but I do manage to keep most of my strength. I have been off for months and months. Out of the gym since last spring. I only have two dumbells to train with right now. But I can still hit a sub six mile and do two hundred consecutive push-ups and forty consecutive pull-ups. That's clean and at thirty seven years old. Still have all my serratus clear as a bell. Back like a christmas tree. I don't strut in public. I wear loose clothes and hide my physique. I train for me. Not for girls, not for guys, not to impress this board. I get paid as a side effect of my training. My physique pays many of my bills. Does yours? Until you know me, you should withold judgement, don't you think?

Lastly, I'm not quite seeing how my response was "asshole-ish." I simply stated that Clomid is not necessary, and it isn't. I stated that I haven't tried it post recovery (that I can recall, anyway -- in the beginning I did some things I may have forgotten about...), but how is this being an asshole?

Are YOU on Clomid?