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  1. #1
    A_Giant_Bear's Avatar
    A_Giant_Bear is offline New Member
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    Critique a newbs first cycle

    Please fill in the amount that I should take where there is a question mark.

    cycle:

    (nolvadex 10mg a day everyday until pct where dosage is specified)
    day 1,3,5,7 (week 1): sustanon (karachi) 150mg
    day 11,18,25,32,39,46,53,60,67 (week 2-10): test. enanthate (iranian) 500mg

    pct: (starting from last day on injection)
    day 1 (last day of injection): 3000iu HCG , 10mg nolvadex
    day 2: 10mg nolvadex
    day 3: 10mg nolvadex
    day 4: 10mg nolvadex
    day 5: 10mg nolvadex
    day 6: 3000iu HCG, 10mg nolvadex
    day 7: 10mg nolvadex
    day 8: 10mg nolvadex
    day 9: 10mg nolvadex
    day 10: 10mg nolvadex
    day 11: 1500iu HCG, 10mg nolvadex
    day 12: 10mg nolvadex
    day 13: 10mg nolvadex
    day 14: ?mg nolvadex, ?mg proviron
    day 15: ?mg nolvadex, ?mg proviron
    day 16: ?mg nolvadex, ?mg proviron
    day 17: 1500iu HCG, ?mg nolvadex, ?mg proviron
    day 18: ?mg nolvadex, ?mg proviron
    day 19: ?mg nolvadex, ?mg proviron
    day 20: ?mg nolvadex, ?mg proviron
    day 21-34: ?mg nolvadex, ?mg proviron

    thanks for all your help.

    A_Giant_Bear

  2. #2
    Hed
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    Woah, all wrong man.

    Test, ran from week 1 to week 10, not 2-10. Test will take 3-4 weeks to kick in, so you want to run that as long as possible. Why are you running sust and test together, they are both test compounds, so its pretty much dumb to run them together, one will not give you anything that the other cant.

    PCT is all wrong. Nolvadex , 20mg per day, days 1-21. Clomid, 300mg day 1, 100 mg day 2-12, 50 mg days 13-21.

    run nolva throughout the cycle at 10mg every day still.

    Run just the test, 500mg per week, two shots per week. That iranian stuff is real good, i just ran it.

  3. #3
    Thegr8One's Avatar
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    and hed saves the day

  4. #4
    Hed
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    Its why i am here

  5. #5
    BlInDsIdE's Avatar
    BlInDsIdE is offline "ARs Most Dangerous Member"
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    also IMO 3000iu of HCG is way overkill, 500iu is all thats needed

  6. #6
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    Hed's my hero

  7. #7
    tycin's Avatar
    tycin is offline Anabolic Member
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    that cycle is a complete mess bro! do wut Hed said and maybe some dbol :

    wks 1-10 test e/cyp 500mg/week
    wks 1-4 dbol 30mg/ed
    wks 1-10 nolva 10mg/ed
    pct....
    clomid: day 1 300mg, days 2-11 100mg/ed, days 12-22 50mg/ed--nolva 20mg/day thruout pct

  8. #8
    tycin's Avatar
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    and no need for hcg in this cycle maybe run 4-5g trib/ed

  9. #9
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    The reason I'm going to run sust for week 1 is so that the test e will start working as soon as I inject it. I definately don't want to add in any orals other than anti-estrogens. HCG has been changed to 1500 iu on week 4 and week 8 of the cycle because of advice I got from outlawmuscle. The reason I didn't add any clomid is because steroid profiles on outlaw said it did the same thing as nolva, but with less side effects. Everyone keeps telling me to add it so I will. The enanth. will also be shot twice a week now. I'm definately gonna take HCG, my boys will thank me. Finally, I'm changing the pct to the exact advice Hed gave me. Thank you Hed and others. I always appreciate advice.

    A_Giant_Bear
    Last edited by A_Giant_Bear; 03-30-2005 at 12:33 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by A_Giant_Bear
    The reason I'm going to run sust for week 1 is so that the test e will start working as soon as I inject it. I definately don't want to add in any orals other than anti-estrogens. HCG has been changed to 1500 iu on week 4 and week 8 of the cycle because of advice I got from outlawmuscle. The reason I didn't add any clomid is because steroid profiles on outlaw said it did the same thing as nolva, but with less side effects. Everyone keeps telling me to add it so I will. The enanth. will also be shot twice a week now. I'm definately gonna take HCG, my boys will thank me. Finally, I'm changing the pct to the exact advice Hed gave me. Thank you Hed and others. I always appreciate advice.

    A_Giant_Bear
    In my opinion you should have a better understanding of your gear before you start. You may have increased sides if you insist on using the sust for week 1 and continuing with enanthate because your test levels wont be very stable. Also the reason they told you that HCG is unnecessary is because it is used mainly for testicular atrophy, which you shouldnt have. If you want to use it for precaution, more power to ya. Also the reason you should use clomid is because it gets your natural test. levels back up to par.

  11. #11
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    So, short of him jump starting with D/Bol or waiting 4 weeks for it to kick in, how about suggesting he use Prop get things going... or... read below. Only problem is, I don't know if this guy has "half life" and "release rate" values accurately. Anyone care to comment?


    Giving credit to SKYEFIRE at Superior Muscle for this one

    Be aware that while there is a lot of truth to saying that “test is test” or that the changing the ester of the hormone doesn’t change it that is NOT entirely true. The properties do change some with the type of ester used. For instance Testosterone Propionate is widely believed (have notice this myself) to cause you to hold less water then an equivalent amount of Testosterone Enanthate , even if the Testosterone Propionate is injected every day and the Testosterone Enanthate twice a week. Another good example is Trenbolone . An experienced body builder might run 100mg every day of the acetate ester as a maximum but will not get away with running 700mg of the enanthate. So obviously the esters do effect how the drug works to some degree.

    A couple of things about half-lives that need to be considered for the following discussion. First is that the actually esters themselves do not determine the actually half-life. The actual half-life is determined by the solution as a whole. The type of oil, amount and types of solvents all contribute to the half-life of a product. For instance the half-life of Testosterone Enanthate is said to be 10 days. However, by using a polyhydric alcohol along with benzyl alcohol and a fast absorbing oil I can reduce that to about 8 days. On the other hand I make a solution that has very little benzyl alcohol and a healthy amount of benzyl benzoate with slow absorbing oil I can get 12 days or better. Testosterone base is another good example. Using a polyhydric solution it is absorbed in 12 hours or less, in a slow absorbing solution that can be made as long as 36 hours. That is the difference between injecting 2 to 3 times a day and once a day. So the manufacture (or how you made it) will make up to a 50% difference in what the actual half-life is.

    As for how the longer esters should be ran, well that is as always, a matter of debate. This disclaimer if for the rest of the paper if I can call it that: All this is a matter of my opinion and does not constitute medical or any other kind of advice. This is all role-playing anyways. Also while I am on the soapbox please feel free to disagree and debate the information in here BUT PLEASE STATE WHY. By this I mean make an argument on the subject, don’t just state your opinion on the matter. Additionally I like studies and appreciate them but by themselves they do not make an argument. Your interpretation of them does.

    First off it would seam that a lot of people are not aware of how to calculate the dosages they are receiving from a long estered steroid . The term “kick in” is often used to describe the build up period of the depot in the body. This build up period is a result of two things, one being the time the actual hormone needs to start working or for the body to react to it. The second is the time and doses needed for the depot to build up to the point ware the amount taken is the same as the amount released from the depot. For the purposes here I am going to say that the steroid “Kicks in” at the point where 75% of your weekly dosage is released to the body from the depot.

    The actually calculations are easy. The general form for doing this is MgDL = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL). MgD is milligrams in depot, MgDL is milligrams in depot left, D is days, and HL is the half-life in days. If your mathematically inclined you can also do in logs but I am lazy and this is close enough. So say you took a shot of 800mgs Testosterone Cypionate , which has a half life of 12 days, on Monday, by Sunday you would have 800*((.5)^(7/12)) or 534mg left in the depot. 800-534=266mg that you actually got that week from that shot. If you took another 800mg shot on the following Monday you would (504+800) *((.5)^(7/12)) or 870 left in the depot at the end of week two. 1304-870=434 that you actually got to use during week two and so on. As you can see the long esters take quit a bit of time to get to the weekly dosage. Please note that the calculation for week two starts out with D being 8 instead of 7, hence the 504 instead of the 534.

    That leads us to the proper way to cycle long esters. I can not count the number of times I have seen people suggest a Testosterone Cypionate with Boldenolone Undecylenate (test cyp/EQ) cycle. The problem is that a lot of people recommending this are saying 8 weeks. In my opinion this just doesn’t cut it. It takes 4 weeks for the Testosterone Cypionate to “kick in” and 6 weeks for the Boldenolone Undecylenate. This means that you would actually have only about 3 to 4 weeks at the intended dosage. That is including the natural ramp down of the esters. The below is the results of a quick spreadsheet I did for this. Since the Boldenolone Undecylenate is the longer ester that is the one I will be working with. This is for 400mg a week for 8 weeks.

    ______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
    ______depot ____dosage _____released
    Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot

    1 ____400 ______102 ________25.48%
    2 ____686 ______175 ________43.68%
    3 ____890 ______227 ________56.69%
    4 ___1036 ______264 ________65.99%
    5 ___1140 ______291 ________72.63%
    6 ___1215 ______310 ________77.38%
    7 ___1268 ______323 ________80.77%
    8 ___1306 ______333 ________83.19%

    As you can see you only get above 300mg at week 6. Please note that it take twice as long to ramp up as down so the minimum time it take for the Boldenolone Undecylenate to clear is 3 weeks. Now if we increase the cycle time to 12 weeks thing look a little different.

    ______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
    ______depot ____dosage _____released
    Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot
    9 ____1333 _____340 ________84.92%
    10 ___1353 _____345 ________86.16%
    11 ___1367 _____348 ________87.05%
    12 ___1377 _____351 ________87.68%

    Now we have almost 8 weeks at near the intended dosage. If you include week 13:

    ______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
    ______depot ____dosage _____released
    Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot


    13 ___765 ______195________ 48.69%
    14 ___570 ______145 ________36.29%
    15 ___425 ______108 ________27.04%
    16 ___316 _______81 ________20.15%
    17 ___236 _______60 ________15.02%
    18 ___176 _______45 ________11.19%
    19 ___131 _______33 _________8.34%
    20 ____98 _______25 _________6.22%

    And it might even look better if we ran 16 weeks. Please note that this is the same for any steroid with a half-life of 16.5 days. It does not matter. Swales has also said that

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week ... you should start your PCT. I believe that he means any repressive gear so you would have to include most any gear left in your system if you didn’t finish with testosterone.

    The other opinion is to front load the steroid in question.. This is the process of taking a great deal of the steroid during the first week or two in order to avoid having to wait for the build up to occur. As you might guess this is controversial process but it does work. For this example I am going to use the EQ again at the same dosage but this time I am going to front load 1.2 grams of EQ as 300mg ED for 4 days the first week. To make life simple I entered this as a single dose on the spreadsheet but the error this produces is small and not important to this discussion.

    ______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
    ______depot ____dosage _____released
    Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot


    1____ 1200_____ 306 ________76.43%
    2 ____1257 _____320 ________80.09%
    3 ____1299 _____331 ________82.71%
    4 ____1328 _____338 ________84.58%
    5 ____1349 _____344 ________85.91%
    6 ____1364 _____347 ________86.87%
    7 ____1375 _____350 ________87.55%
    8 ____1382 _____352 ________88.04%
    9 ____1388 _____354 ________88.39%
    10 ___1392 _____355 ________88.64%
    11 ___1394 _____355 ________88.81%
    12 ___1396 _____356 ________88.94%


    Now as you can see this is a hell of a difference. No real ramp up time just the time it take for the body to respond. This is also a good way to get the test flu, so be forewarned.

  12. #12
    A_Giant_Bear's Avatar
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    Thanks Truman. I really appreciate the info.

    Updated cycle and PCT:

    Week 1 : 50mg Test Prop EOD, 400mg Test enanthate (200mg biweekly), nolva 10mg ED
    Week 2,3,5,6,7,9,10 : Test enanthate 500mg (250mg biweekly), nolva 10mg ED
    Week 4 and 8 : Test e 500mg (250 biweekly), nolva 10mg ED, 1500iu HCG

    PCT: starting 2 weeks after last shot

    Nolvadex - 20mg per day, days 1-21.
    Clomid - 300mg day 1
    100 mg day 2-12
    50 mg days 13-21.

  13. #13
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    Honestly, I might continue using the Prop through week 3, and run the first 3 weeks of enanthate at 500-600. If you get sides back it down a bit, but I think it's good to get the **** in gear and back off, rather than to wait a long ass time for it to start working.

    Glad it helped...

  14. #14
    weightlifter0589 is offline New Member
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    asdff
    Last edited by weightlifter0589; 04-14-2007 at 11:31 AM.

  15. #15
    Rocky IV's Avatar
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    Just start with prop 100mg eod & eq 200mg 2xweek take 20mg of nolv a day if its your first cycle to be safe,,,save the sustanon for later on trust me or you going to be walking around with bigger breast than your mothers

  16. #16
    weightlifter0589 is offline New Member
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    asdfasdf

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